Alternative Methods for Eyes | Suggestions

[quote name="pfvupl" date="2019-09-15 15:32:39" ] You want a specific eye type. The eye type is Multi-gaze, and there is 1/200 chance of getting it. You want Rare, so it's 9/100 chance of getting it. I don't know what the problem is. The odds are reliable in that you know what to expect and can plan accordingly.[/quote] @pfvupl That's not how RNG works. You can't just breed for 200 dragons and one of them is guaranteed to have multi. It's like flipping a coin. It's a 50/50 chance each time, but that also means you could flip this coin indefinitely and STILL only get heads, when you were going for tails. One flip doesn't change the outcome of the flip before it or after it. 1/200 is NOT reliable, because it's 1/200 EACH TIME you breed, meaning you could ALWAYS end up in that 199 section and NEVER see the eyes you want. [quote name="pfvupl" date="2019-09-15 15:32:39" ] People who are that upset by the update are allowed to leave, although it's a shame. I suggest a fix that involves Clanbound Vials because I think it is the best solution to the only thing that's unfair about the update, in my opinion: the fact that old dragons can't get new eyes.[/quote] First you state that people shouldn't feel entitled to anything, or get things for free, now you're saying the only way you accept getting these vials is for free? For clicking a single button and being online at the right time? Is that what I'm hearing? Also, you have only been here for a little under 5 months. Your oldest dragon is 3 years, however the rest of them are under a year. You literally have no way of knowing this site WITHOUT the eye types being here. And that's not a fault of your own, but you ALSO don't know how incredibly crushing it is to get an eye type out that you REALLY WANT on an old dragon, only for it to be breeding only. You only have 5 dragons who were around before this, so I understand now why you literally do not care what all the older players are saying. I also understand now why you don't get the issues with specific colors since all your dragons have a similar color scheme. Again. That's fine and dandy, but I don't think you should let your personal playstyle blind you to the struggles and frustrations of people who are Locked Out Of A Game Mechanic. [quote name="pfvupl" date="2019-09-15 15:32:39" ] Again, I don't understand where the figure of 12 years is coming from. This is not akin to breeding for a certain sex, true, it's more akin to breeding for colour (except that odds can be much, much worse for colour and aren't as reliable). [/quote] Look up a bit. DracoVentis did the math for you.

thecatsred

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September 15, 2019 15:54:44

pfvupl wrote on 2019-09-15 15:32:39:

You want a specific eye type. The eye type is Multi-gaze, and there is 1/200 chance of getting it. You want Rare, so it's 9/100 chance of getting it. I don't know what the problem is. The odds are reliable in that you know what to expect and can plan accordingly.

@pfvupl

That's not how RNG works. You can't just breed for 200 dragons and one of them is guaranteed to have multi. It's like flipping a coin. It's a 50/50 chance each time, but that also means you could flip this coin indefinitely and STILL only get heads, when you were going for tails. One flip doesn't change the outcome of the flip before it or after it. 1/200 is NOT reliable, because it's 1/200 EACH TIME you breed, meaning you could ALWAYS end up in that 199 section and NEVER see the eyes you want.

pfvupl wrote on 2019-09-15 15:32:39:

People who are that upset by the update are allowed to leave, although it's a shame. I suggest a fix that involves Clanbound Vials because I think it is the best solution to the only thing that's unfair about the update, in my opinion: the fact that old dragons can't get new eyes.

First you state that people shouldn't feel entitled to anything, or get things for free, now you're saying the only way you accept getting these vials is for free? For clicking a single button and being online at the right time? Is that what I'm hearing?

Also, you have only been here for a little under 5 months. Your oldest dragon is 3 years, however the rest of them are under a year. You literally have no way of knowing this site WITHOUT the eye types being here. And that's not a fault of your own, but you ALSO don't know how incredibly crushing it is to get an eye type out that you REALLY WANT on an old dragon, only for it to be breeding only. You only have 5 dragons who were around before this, so I understand now why you literally do not care what all the older players are saying.

I also understand now why you don't get the issues with specific colors since all your dragons have a similar color scheme. Again. That's fine and dandy, but I don't think you should let your personal playstyle blind you to the struggles and frustrations of people who are Locked Out Of A Game Mechanic.

pfvupl wrote on 2019-09-15 15:32:39:

Again, I don't understand where the figure of 12 years is coming from. This is not akin to breeding for a certain sex, true, it's more akin to breeding for colour (except that odds can be much, much worse for colour and aren't as reliable).

Look up a bit. DracoVentis did the math for you.

Last edited on Sep 15, 2019 15:56:15 by thecatsred

[quote]to give new, poor players the same exact odds of getting something special or unique as players who have the cash and resources to throw at a breeding project.[/quote] Exact same odds does not mean fair. RNG is any BUT fair. Player A could breed two imperials tomorrow and pop out a multi eyed dream dragon. Player B could breed two imperials every month for the next ten years and never see multi eye. That is just not fair. Working for a goal is fair. Everyone expending effort to achieve the results is fair. For example, if Baldwin had multi for a set price + items, everyone would be on the exact same field. They would need the exact same items and fee. New players wouldn't have to pay 3x more fee than old or vice versa. It's the same. Everyone is equal, all dragons have the same chance of participating in the feature. No one is excluded. PLUS, players who want to breed instead of Baldwin still can breed! It's more accommodating, gets players active in more parts of the site, keeps them engaged and coming back to FR, soothes over a lot of hurt feelings, AND allows for different play styles to coexist. RNG simply isn't this. Old, new, it doesn't matter if the RNG decides to spite you. ~*~*~*~ And, as said before me, lumping everything into common v not common is severely misrepresenting this entire issue. I'd probably love Rare, just rare, simple rare, on a dozen of my dragons. But it is in no way feasible to rebreed them--and considering the time and cost, it would be ridiculous to do so for a mere tint. I don't get why spiffy eyes like glowing, dark sclera, and spiral are available but why a tint like unusual or rare is breed-locked. Many dragons cannot be rebred. Progens, for example. I have a special lineage set of dragons. Staring with Masquerade, I own both his parents, two of his grandparents, and one of his great grandparents (which was a gift from an IRL friend). His great great grandparents belong to that friend too. If I wanted to have Masquerade and family with new eyes, even if those eyes were -Uncommon-, I would have to go all the way back to my friend's dragons and beg her to breed identical clones with uncommon eyes, and then embark on a decades-long, multi-generational breeding quest so that I got Masquerade 2.0 with lineage in tact and uncommon eyes. That is asinine. ~*~*~*~ The whole "entitled" thing is also ridiculous, insulting, and a misrepresentation. All people are asking for is a way to work for new eyes on old, precious, irreplaceable dragons. Someone spending months leveling up Baldwin, gathering the raw materials (however arduous that may be), paying a fee, and creating Multi vial is NOT asking for a hand out. Effort =/= entitled. It's pretty much as Jemadar said: [quote]If anything, implying that people just want handouts and saying that galore should give away two copies every so often is somewhat an oxymoron. [/quote]

gemajgall

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September 15, 2019 16:06:16

Quote:

to give new, poor players the same exact odds of getting something special or unique as players who have the cash and resources to throw at a breeding project.

Exact same odds does not mean fair. RNG is any BUT fair. Player A could breed two imperials tomorrow and pop out a multi eyed dream dragon. Player B could breed two imperials every month for the next ten years and never see multi eye. That is just not fair.

Working for a goal is fair. Everyone expending effort to achieve the results is fair. For example, if Baldwin had multi for a set price + items, everyone would be on the exact same field. They would need the exact same items and fee. New players wouldn't have to pay 3x more fee than old or vice versa. It's the same. Everyone is equal, all dragons have the same chance of participating in the feature. No one is excluded. PLUS, players who want to breed instead of Baldwin still can breed! It's more accommodating, gets players active in more parts of the site, keeps them engaged and coming back to FR, soothes over a lot of hurt feelings, AND allows for different play styles to coexist.

RNG simply isn't this. Old, new, it doesn't matter if the RNG decides to spite you.

~*~*~*~

And, as said before me, lumping everything into common v not common is severely misrepresenting this entire issue. I'd probably love Rare, just rare, simple rare, on a dozen of my dragons. But it is in no way feasible to rebreed them--and considering the time and cost, it would be ridiculous to do so for a mere tint. I don't get why spiffy eyes like glowing, dark sclera, and spiral are available but why a tint like unusual or rare is breed-locked.

Many dragons cannot be rebred. Progens, for example. I have a special lineage set of dragons. Staring with Masquerade, I own both his parents, two of his grandparents, and one of his great grandparents (which was a gift from an IRL friend). His great great grandparents belong to that friend too. If I wanted to have Masquerade and family with new eyes, even if those eyes were -Uncommon-, I would have to go all the way back to my friend's dragons and beg her to breed identical clones with uncommon eyes, and then embark on a decades-long, multi-generational breeding quest so that I got Masquerade 2.0 with lineage in tact and uncommon eyes. That is asinine.

~*~*~*~

The whole "entitled" thing is also ridiculous, insulting, and a misrepresentation. All people are asking for is a way to work for new eyes on old, precious, irreplaceable dragons. Someone spending months leveling up Baldwin, gathering the raw materials (however arduous that may be), paying a fee, and creating Multi vial is NOT asking for a hand out. Effort =/= entitled. It's pretty much as Jemadar said:

Quote:

If anything, implying that people just want handouts and saying that galore should give away two copies every so often is somewhat an oxymoron.

Pings are disabled.

If writers are supposed to "show not tell," why are we called "storytellers" and not "storyshow-ers"?

((Forgive the monster post, but this is most of what I want to say about this whole thing))

As always, forever supporting increasing the ability for players to earn/work towards customizing their dragons as they see fit. Eye types could be super fun and actually matter; any of these brilliant options mentioned (Marketplace/Coli/Gathering/Swipp/Baldwin/New NPC/Transferring/etc) would be fantastic, and they're all really well thought out, and I'd honestly be thrilled to see any combination of them implemented. There are no concerns that this would "ruin the market for x eyes", because there's not really a market to begin with; eye types don't matter as is- at most, they may add a couple gems to an already nice dragon's price.

As-is, the eye type mechanic isn't fun. It isn't exciting. It isn't a reward; it isn't special. It isn't earned, or something you can work towards. So what is it? To understand, let's look at an example from the dragon search forum.

On my handful of visits to the Find a Dragon forum, I've found threads where someone, usually a newbie, is looking for a specific Primal/Multi dragon. A good number of these people designed these dragons right after or even before they even joined the site; when I see FR being recommended on other petsites, the link to the Scrying Workshop, not the home page, is usually what is shared. These poor souls post their "Dream Dragon", many times a stunning Primal in a color combo that has no business being as rare as it is. At first, they bump their thread naively looking to buy it outright with what little cash they have; eventually they switch towards looking for pairs; then they may start looking for pairs that could create pairs; eventually, they just give up and accept they may very well never achieve their dream. It's disappointing and discouraging to see- and that's exactly what the current eye type mechanic is. Which is a shame, because it has the potential to be so cool with any of the proposed fixes!

In regards to previous discussions, just a couple things I want to point out:

Quote:

I think the FR team knew exactly what they were doing when they implemented this system. I believe it's working as intended - to give new, poor players the same exact odds of getting something special or unique as players who have the cash and resources to throw at a breeding project.
-snip-

Although staff themselves have offered this as a reasoning for the eye type mechanic as is, it is also blatantly incorrect reasoning. Newer players are at a distinct disadvantage to older players, as they have neither the nest or lair space to accommodate the continuous hatching getting a "special" eye requires, not even to mention that they are not likely to have many nicely matching pairs- a hideous fodder dragon with Primal/Multi is still nothing more than a hideous fodder dragon. Newer players (or just those who choose to keep their lair small) are at a large disadvantage, because hatching special eyes is solely a numbers game (as I'm about to demonstrate).

I'd also like to point out that the "12 years to hatch a Primal Imp of a specific gender" math is also technically incorrect; if only the odds were that good! :')

For those that want to see the math:
First, let's lay down the odds of hatching Imps, and see how many we can hatch in a given time frame to determine the optimal pairing. For simplicity's sake, decimals are rounded off after 4 places. Sources for statistics given where appropriate.

Clutch size for 2 dragons of same breed:^X

4 eggs (12%)
3 eggs (40%)
2 eggs (38%)
1 egg (10%)

Average eggs per clutch: 2.54

Clutch size for 2 dragons of different breeds:^X

5 eggs (5%)
4 eggs (10%)
3 eggs (45%)
2 eggs (30%)
1 egg (10%)

Average eggs per clutch: 2.7

Odds of any hatchling being an Imp in an Impx(WC/Coatl) pair: 0.97^X
Average number of Imp hatchlings in an Impx(WC/Coatl) pair: 2.619

Imperial breeding cooldown: 30 days^X
WC/Coatl breeding cooldown: 35 days^X

Days in a year (post 2000): 365.25^X (as we are just past 2000, I've decided to exclude the slight change the millennium rule has on leap years)

ImpxImp pair:
Number of nests per year: 12.175
Imp hatchlings per year: 30.9245

Impx(WC/Coatl) pair:
Number of nests per year: 10.4357
Imp hatchlings per year: 27.3311

->CONCLUSION: ImpxImp pairs are more efficient at cranking out Imp babies. This more favorable pairing is what will be used for the rest of the calculations.
Now on to calculating the odds of hatching a Primal! For this, we are only interested in the odds of the event occurring at least once (AKA the inverse of the probability of failure).

Odds of Primal: 0.0042^X

Odds of at least 1 Primal in an average nest: 0.0106

For a 50% chance of success at hatching at least 1 Primal, you need:
164.6882 hatchlings
64.8379 nests
5.3255 years (5 years and 118.8865 days)

For a 75% chance of success, you need:
329.3765 hatchlings
129.6758 nests
10.6510 years (10 years and 237.7731 days)

For a 90% chance of success, you need:
547.0824 hatchlings
215.3868 nests
17.6909 years (17 years and 252.3537 days)

For a 99% chance of success ("certainty"), you need:
1094.1649 hatchlings
430.7736 nests
35.3818 years (35 years and 139.4574 days)

Keep in mind that even that long does not guarantee you a Primal; you could theoretically keep breeding/scattering for an infinite amount of time with no success (though you'd have to be quite unlucky), and there's nothing you can do to improve your base chances. And that's only if you don't care about gender. But what if you do?

To breed a Primal Imp of a particular gender:
50% chance of success:
329.7234 hatchlings
129.8124 nests
10.1814 years (10 years and 66.2423 days)

75% chance of success:
659.4468 hatchlings
259.6247 nests
21.3244 years (21 years and 118.4915 days)

90% chance of success:
1095.3174 hatchlings
431.2273 nests
35.4191 years (35 years and 153.0696 days)

99% chance of success ("certainty"):
2190.6348 hatchlings
862.4546 nests
70.8382 years (70 years and 306.1393 days)

Note: these times can be shortened some if you have multiple pairs of unrelated dragons of the exact same color, that can be loaded onto nests non-stop. (For best results, you would need to dedicate enough lair spots to accommodate 30 pairs of unrelated Imps, so you can hatch 1 nest a day)
If you were to hatch 1 nest a day and wanted a Primal Imp of a particular gender, it would take you 2.3613 years to have a 99% chance ("certainty") of success. However, this does not factor in the time to obtain 30 unrelated pairs of the exact color combo you want as well as the time it takes to expand the lair to hold all 60 breeders; assuming you are going for a relatively uncommon combo, it can take years to develop that many pairs alone.
#Ididthemath

With all that being said, the current eye type system is objectively, mathematically flawed, and I don't really think there's any room for debate on that (unless you want to argue that you shouldn't want/try to get a particular eye type, in which case... why do they even exist?).

beautifulglitter

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September 15, 2019 21:10:56

((Forgive the monster post, but this is most of what I want to say about this whole thing))

As always, forever supporting increasing the ability for players to earn/work towards customizing their dragons as they see fit. Eye types could be super fun and actually matter; any of these brilliant options mentioned (Marketplace/Coli/Gathering/Swipp/Baldwin/New NPC/Transferring/etc) would be fantastic, and they're all really well thought out, and I'd honestly be thrilled to see any combination of them implemented. There are no concerns that this would "ruin the market for x eyes", because there's not really a market to begin with; eye types don't matter as is- at most, they may add a couple gems to an already nice dragon's price.

As-is, the eye type mechanic isn't fun. It isn't exciting. It isn't a reward; it isn't special. It isn't earned, or something you can work towards. So what is it? To understand, let's look at an example from the dragon search forum.

On my handful of visits to the Find a Dragon forum, I've found threads where someone, usually a newbie, is looking for a specific Primal/Multi dragon. A good number of these people designed these dragons right after or even before they even joined the site; when I see FR being recommended on other petsites, the link to the Scrying Workshop, not the home page, is usually what is shared. These poor souls post their "Dream Dragon", many times a stunning Primal in a color combo that has no business being as rare as it is. At first, they bump their thread naively looking to buy it outright with what little cash they have; eventually they switch towards looking for pairs; then they may start looking for pairs that could create pairs; eventually, they just give up and accept they may very well never achieve their dream. It's disappointing and discouraging to see- and that's exactly what the current eye type mechanic is. Which is a shame, because it has the potential to be so cool with any of the proposed fixes!

In regards to previous discussions, just a couple things I want to point out:

Quote:

I think the FR team knew exactly what they were doing when they implemented this system. I believe it's working as intended - to give new, poor players the same exact odds of getting something special or unique as players who have the cash and resources to throw at a breeding project.
-snip-

Although staff themselves have offered this as a reasoning for the eye type mechanic as is, it is also blatantly incorrect reasoning. Newer players are at a distinct disadvantage to older players, as they have neither the nest or lair space to accommodate the continuous hatching getting a "special" eye requires, not even to mention that they are not likely to have many nicely matching pairs- a hideous fodder dragon with Primal/Multi is still nothing more than a hideous fodder dragon. Newer players (or just those who choose to keep their lair small) are at a large disadvantage, because hatching special eyes is solely a numbers game (as I'm about to demonstrate).

I'd also like to point out that the "12 years to hatch a Primal Imp of a specific gender" math is also technically incorrect; if only the odds were that good! :')

For those that want to see the math:
First, let's lay down the odds of hatching Imps, and see how many we can hatch in a given time frame to determine the optimal pairing. For simplicity's sake, decimals are rounded off after 4 places. Sources for statistics given where appropriate.

Clutch size for 2 dragons of same breed:^X

4 eggs (12%)
3 eggs (40%)
2 eggs (38%)
1 egg (10%)

Average eggs per clutch: 2.54

Clutch size for 2 dragons of different breeds:^X

5 eggs (5%)
4 eggs (10%)
3 eggs (45%)
2 eggs (30%)
1 egg (10%)

Average eggs per clutch: 2.7

Odds of any hatchling being an Imp in an Impx(WC/Coatl) pair: 0.97^X
Average number of Imp hatchlings in an Impx(WC/Coatl) pair: 2.619

Imperial breeding cooldown: 30 days^X
WC/Coatl breeding cooldown: 35 days^X

Days in a year (post 2000): 365.25^X (as we are just past 2000, I've decided to exclude the slight change the millennium rule has on leap years)

ImpxImp pair:
Number of nests per year: 12.175
Imp hatchlings per year: 30.9245

Impx(WC/Coatl) pair:
Number of nests per year: 10.4357
Imp hatchlings per year: 27.3311

->CONCLUSION: ImpxImp pairs are more efficient at cranking out Imp babies. This more favorable pairing is what will be used for the rest of the calculations.
Now on to calculating the odds of hatching a Primal! For this, we are only interested in the odds of the event occurring at least once (AKA the inverse of the probability of failure).

Odds of Primal: 0.0042^X

Odds of at least 1 Primal in an average nest: 0.0106

For a 50% chance of success at hatching at least 1 Primal, you need:
164.6882 hatchlings
64.8379 nests
5.3255 years (5 years and 118.8865 days)

For a 75% chance of success, you need:
329.3765 hatchlings
129.6758 nests
10.6510 years (10 years and 237.7731 days)

For a 90% chance of success, you need:
547.0824 hatchlings
215.3868 nests
17.6909 years (17 years and 252.3537 days)

For a 99% chance of success ("certainty"), you need:
1094.1649 hatchlings
430.7736 nests
35.3818 years (35 years and 139.4574 days)

Keep in mind that even that long does not guarantee you a Primal; you could theoretically keep breeding/scattering for an infinite amount of time with no success (though you'd have to be quite unlucky), and there's nothing you can do to improve your base chances. And that's only if you don't care about gender. But what if you do?

To breed a Primal Imp of a particular gender:
50% chance of success:
329.7234 hatchlings
129.8124 nests
10.1814 years (10 years and 66.2423 days)

75% chance of success:
659.4468 hatchlings
259.6247 nests
21.3244 years (21 years and 118.4915 days)

90% chance of success:
1095.3174 hatchlings
431.2273 nests
35.4191 years (35 years and 153.0696 days)

99% chance of success ("certainty"):
2190.6348 hatchlings
862.4546 nests
70.8382 years (70 years and 306.1393 days)

Note: these times can be shortened some if you have multiple pairs of unrelated dragons of the exact same color, that can be loaded onto nests non-stop. (For best results, you would need to dedicate enough lair spots to accommodate 30 pairs of unrelated Imps, so you can hatch 1 nest a day)
If you were to hatch 1 nest a day and wanted a Primal Imp of a particular gender, it would take you 2.3613 years to have a 99% chance ("certainty") of success. However, this does not factor in the time to obtain 30 unrelated pairs of the exact color combo you want as well as the time it takes to expand the lair to hold all 60 breeders; assuming you are going for a relatively uncommon combo, it can take years to develop that many pairs alone.
#Ididthemath

With all that being said, the current eye type system is objectively, mathematically flawed, and I don't really think there's any room for debate on that (unless you want to argue that you shouldn't want/try to get a particular eye type, in which case... why do they even exist?).

[quote name="@pfvupl" date="2019-09-15 08:34:03" ]While I get that they're "too valuable to ever use" you can't then complain that your one perfect oldie dragon can't get the eyes. No, they wouldn't be too valuable to use, because they would be made available again at a later date for new users, and again for everybody else. Have they said Goat eyes will never be available again and is a retired item? [/quote] Not explicitly, but from [url=http://www1.flightrising.com/forums/ann/2683895]the initial announcement post[/url]: [quote]Our goal with this change is to ensure that we provide everyone equal & assured opportunities to apply future natural eye types to [b]a couple[/b] of their existing dragons every time one is introduced into the system.[/quote] Bolding mine. My interpretation is that future duplicate releases are not planned, that Galore will release natural type vials only once, when the type is first introduced, and only ever two. I could absolutely be wrong about this. Or the staff could change their minds about it. And if the releases aren't one-offs, I would have no problem at all with clanbound vials being the only means of accessing an eye-type; if all it required was being patient until the next release, I wouldn't hesitate to use them. But that's not the way that post reads to me, and until we hear otherwise, I'll continue to support eye methods that can't go extinct as retired randomized or clanbound vials can.

Lara8

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658

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9953

September 16, 2019 05:21:25

@pfvupl wrote on 2019-09-15 08:34:03:

While I get that they're "too valuable to ever use" you can't then complain that your one perfect oldie dragon can't get the eyes. No, they wouldn't be too valuable to use, because they would be made available again at a later date for new users, and again for everybody else.

Have they said Goat eyes will never be available again and is a retired item?

Not explicitly, but from the initial announcement post:

Quote:

Our goal with this change is to ensure that we provide everyone equal & assured opportunities to apply future natural eye types to a couple of their existing dragons every time one is introduced into the system.

Bolding mine. My interpretation is that future duplicate releases are not planned, that Galore will release natural type vials only once, when the type is first introduced, and only ever two.

I could absolutely be wrong about this. Or the staff could change their minds about it. And if the releases aren't one-offs, I would have no problem at all with clanbound vials being the only means of accessing an eye-type; if all it required was being patient until the next release, I wouldn't hesitate to use them.

But that's not the way that post reads to me, and until we hear otherwise, I'll continue to support eye methods that can't go extinct as retired randomized or clanbound vials can.

[quote name="S0MBR4" date="2019-09-14 20:41:28" ] I'm not sure if this has been suggested elsewhere or not and I don't spend tons of time in the forums.. but I've been thinking it's disappointing to get a fodder child with primal or multigaze eyes especially when I know they'll just be fodder. I was thinking having an item, maybe a cauldron brew or a gem shop item or the like could be sort of an empty vial that you can use on a dragon. If used on a primal type dragon the vial becomes a primal sight vial that you can then apply to the desired dragon. The primal dragon taken from would then be given the default common eyetype, and the recieving dragon wouldn't have an element change. This way a primal fodder wouldn't have to be a disappointment at all. In any case getting reasonable ways to change natural eye types on dragons would be a very welcome change. [/quote] This is honestly the only thing I would support it doesn't take away from the fact that you need to get them from breeding, and gives more stuff do do in Baldwin, which is always good (I really think it should be a Baldwin item, that way you can really work toward it) Edit: Holy heck what happened in the last 3-4 pages Honestly, I don't think Galore constantly handing out free clanbound vials all handy-dandy is a solution [u]at all[/u] And honestly? as someone who is starting to collect old and low ID/special ID dragons, and as someone that was here before the eye update: it is just not possible to re-breed any those dragons, it wouldn't be the same, even if they looked similar You also can't re-breed progens, or special G1s, or any dragon at all that has something tied with a specific hatchdate, you can't go back in time. Or the first child of a pair, they can't have another "first child" I don't think vials should be a MP thing, they are "breeding only" and should still come from there But that doesn't mean there can't be a compromise (like brewable empty vials you could fill up by "putting" them on a special-eyed dragon, see above)

Midorikage

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September 16, 2019 07:22:42

S0MBR4 wrote on 2019-09-14 20:41:28:

I'm not sure if this has been suggested elsewhere or not and I don't spend tons of time in the forums.. but I've been thinking it's disappointing to get a fodder child with primal or multigaze eyes especially when I know they'll just be fodder. I was thinking having an item, maybe a cauldron brew or a gem shop item or the like could be sort of an empty vial that you can use on a dragon. If used on a primal type dragon the vial becomes a primal sight vial that you can then apply to the desired dragon. The primal dragon taken from would then be given the default common eyetype, and the recieving dragon wouldn't have an element change. This way a primal fodder wouldn't have to be a disappointment at all. In any case getting reasonable ways to change natural eye types on dragons would be a very welcome change.

This is honestly the only thing I would support
it doesn't take away from the fact that you need to get them from breeding, and gives more stuff do do in Baldwin, which is always good (I really think it should be a Baldwin item, that way you can really work toward it)

Edit: Holy heck what happened in the last 3-4 pages
Honestly, I don't think Galore constantly handing out free clanbound vials all handy-dandy is a solution at all
And honestly? as someone who is starting to collect old and low ID/special ID dragons, and as someone that was here before the eye update: it is just not possible to re-breed any those dragons, it wouldn't be the same, even if they looked similar
You also can't re-breed progens, or special G1s, or any dragon at all that has something tied with a specific hatchdate, you can't go back in time.
Or the first child of a pair, they can't have another "first child"

I don't think vials should be a MP thing, they are "breeding only" and should still come from there
But that doesn't mean there can't be a compromise (like brewable empty vials you could fill up by "putting" them on a special-eyed dragon, see above)

BLACK LIVES MATTER

Last edited on Sep 16, 2019 07:51:34 by Midorikage

Sorry, what happened was that everybody was pinging me to beg to differ all at once, but I haven't been able to post in this thread recently because I can't keep up with it at work. I've been working all day for the past several days, so my replies before this already reflect my lack of ability to keep up, due to IRL circumstances.

I haven't been able to defend my standpoint; nor have I been able to be as thorough as I would like, nor have I been able to correct people who are misrepresenting/misunderstanding my arguments.

I'll be replying backwards, please be patient.

Quote:

Honestly, I don't think Galore constantly handing out free clanbound vials all handy-dandy is a solution at all
And honestly? as someone who is starting to collect old and low ID/special ID dragons, and as someone that was here before the eye update: it is just not possible to re-breed any those dragons, it wouldn't be the same, even if they looked similar
You also can't re-breed progens, or special G1s, or any dragon at all that has something tied with a specific hatchdate, you can't go back in time.
Or the first child of a pair, they can't have another "first child"

I want to clarify; if you're suggesting that Galore would simply be handing them out for free all of the time, that is not what I'm trying to suggest. I have made it clear that I don't think eyes should be a free-for-all, and Galore would be merely trying to grant an exemption to the breeding-only mechanism for cases like yours above. Otherwise, I believe there shouldn't be normal exceptions to the breeding-only rule, including strange exceptions like eye transfers* seeing as eye types were intended to be breeding-only; (I believe this is the key aspect to them; I'll clarify what I mean by that a bit later so please don't take it the wrong way) what makes it unfair, and the only thing that makes it unfair, about them being breeding-only, is that older dragons may not have had the chance to roll the dice and have no way of doing it since the Scattersight retired.

I agree that Galore shouldn't be constantly handing them out all handy-dandy and essentially be making them constantly available, because it defeats the breeding mechanism. What I mean is they would be realeased very occasionally; a few different eye types, a few times a year. But they shouldn't ever be retired, because there will always be a special dragon that deserves to be saved from the pit of RNG. Just enough Vials to give your beloved old dragons the new eyes.

I can't reply to anybody else for now because of IRL circumstances.

*it doesn't take away from the fact that you need to get them from breeding,
I appreciate this aspect of it.

elysse

670

693

991

1302

September 16, 2019 10:09:02

Sorry, what happened was that everybody was pinging me to beg to differ all at once, but I haven't been able to post in this thread recently because I can't keep up with it at work. I've been working all day for the past several days, so my replies before this already reflect my lack of ability to keep up, due to IRL circumstances.

I haven't been able to defend my standpoint; nor have I been able to be as thorough as I would like, nor have I been able to correct people who are misrepresenting/misunderstanding my arguments.

I'll be replying backwards, please be patient.

Quote:

Honestly, I don't think Galore constantly handing out free clanbound vials all handy-dandy is a solution at all
And honestly? as someone who is starting to collect old and low ID/special ID dragons, and as someone that was here before the eye update: it is just not possible to re-breed any those dragons, it wouldn't be the same, even if they looked similar
You also can't re-breed progens, or special G1s, or any dragon at all that has something tied with a specific hatchdate, you can't go back in time.
Or the first child of a pair, they can't have another "first child"

I want to clarify; if you're suggesting that Galore would simply be handing them out for free all of the time, that is not what I'm trying to suggest. I have made it clear that I don't think eyes should be a free-for-all, and Galore would be merely trying to grant an exemption to the breeding-only mechanism for cases like yours above. Otherwise, I believe there shouldn't be normal exceptions to the breeding-only rule, including strange exceptions like eye transfers* seeing as eye types were intended to be breeding-only; (I believe this is the key aspect to them; I'll clarify what I mean by that a bit later so please don't take it the wrong way) what makes it unfair, and the only thing that makes it unfair, about them being breeding-only, is that older dragons may not have had the chance to roll the dice and have no way of doing it since the Scattersight retired.

I agree that Galore shouldn't be constantly handing them out all handy-dandy and essentially be making them constantly available, because it defeats the breeding mechanism. What I mean is they would be realeased very occasionally; a few different eye types, a few times a year. But they shouldn't ever be retired, because there will always be a special dragon that deserves to be saved from the pit of RNG. Just enough Vials to give your beloved old dragons the new eyes.

I can't reply to anybody else for now because of IRL circumstances.

*it doesn't take away from the fact that you need to get them from breeding,
I appreciate this aspect of it.

Last edited on Sep 16, 2019 10:24:02 by elysse

[quote name="pfvupl" date="2019-09-16 10:09:02" ] What I mean is they would be realeased very occasionally; a few different eye types, a few times a year. But they shouldn't ever be retired, because there will always be a special dragon that deserves to be saved from the pit of RNG. Just enough Vials to give your beloved old dragons the new eyes. [/quote] This is still you saying "they will be handed out for free, but Limited, and at random" which helps nobody at all esp. if they are clanbound. Some people don't have any special dragons for Eye Type X, but some people have 30 who they want it on. Why can't they work for it? This is still free handouts, which you seem to be against. Heck, I'm ALSO against free handouts, especially limited and potentially useless ones from Galore. I have not used my goat vials BECAUSE of their limited use, and the fact that I have no way of telling if I'll ever get another one. I'd much rather work for my vials to put on old dragons, however that mechanism might end up. Hopefully we got a lot of variation on how we can get them, to encourage users around more areas of the site. Give us goals.

thecatsred

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September 16, 2019 10:31:43

pfvupl wrote on 2019-09-16 10:09:02:

What I mean is they would be realeased very occasionally; a few different eye types, a few times a year. But they shouldn't ever be retired, because there will always be a special dragon that deserves to be saved from the pit of RNG. Just enough Vials to give your beloved old dragons the new eyes.

This is still you saying "they will be handed out for free, but Limited, and at random" which helps nobody at all esp. if they are clanbound. Some people don't have any special dragons for Eye Type X, but some people have 30 who they want it on. Why can't they work for it?

This is still free handouts, which you seem to be against. Heck, I'm ALSO against free handouts, especially limited and potentially useless ones from Galore. I have not used my goat vials BECAUSE of their limited use, and the fact that I have no way of telling if I'll ever get another one.

I'd much rather work for my vials to put on old dragons, however that mechanism might end up. Hopefully we got a lot of variation on how we can get them, to encourage users around more areas of the site. Give us goals.

@pfvupl
I know you've been bombarded with pings, so sorry if you don't want this, but I honestly don understand where in the world you're coming from? You say people feel entitled to having their dragons look the way they want them to, but you also have no problem with the solution that Galore periodically hand out vials for already-released eyes?

Is this real life?

I don't know what you find appealing or want out of the eye update, but here's what I want:

1. I want dragons hatched with rare eyes like primal and multi to be unilaterally valuable and/or exciting to get. Even those ugly fodder babies I'm sure we all breed from time to time.
2. I want it to feel like an accomplishment when I get a dragon I want with rare eyes.

Neither of these is true, and I believe the first thing that I want was actually what the staff was trying (and failed) to do with this update.

First of all, I'd like to explain something.

RNG-based breeding like we see with the eyes is not effort. And it's not challenge.

It takes no thought whatsoever. You know what you need to do to get primal eyes on a dragon? You throw dragons on nests. It takes all of a few button clicks. I've gotten many primals and multigazes. Some very pretty ones, too.

Achieving special eyes requires no thought and no work.
On the large scale, that's not how you retain players.

You retain players with visible stepping stones toward a goal. You dangle a goal in front of your player, and then make them feel like they are working toward it.

There is no working toward RNG.

As was pointed out earlier, it's not as if you have to hatch 200 Imperials before you get your primal. You could get your primal on the second hatch; you could get it on your 500th. That's how RNG works. It's not skill and it sure as all heck isn't interesting. It's literally rolling a hundred-sided dice over and over and over hoping to land on the 100. There's a reason Yahtzee has score cards: because just rolling dice isn't a game in itself. And yet this is the game design decision that staff has made. It's somehow less interesting than Yahtzee.

Not that you need to have milestones to make a good game. But, in general, you do need players to feel like they have a way to work toward what they want.

Now, I would like the eyes to remain exclusive to breeding. I like that a lot, because I like breeding dragons and I like my dragons to sell.

This is why I think that a mechanic to transfer eyes (or magic) from one dragon to another is the best real compromise. There's a few reasons. It actually might require work or thought (depending on how the mechanic is built) and therefore a feeling of accomplishment, and it would actually make special-eyed dragons valuable.

Your Galore solution is no work, and no accomplishment. You just happen to be there at the time to get a free thing.
Good job.

My personal preference is the eye-vial for exalting method (where you have a chance--perhaps even 100%) of getting the eye type vial of the dragon that was exalted in exchange for the dragon not leaving treasure, gems, or counting toward dominance. Perhaps because they have left so much magic behind they have to spend some time recovering and so can't fight or something. This would give incentive for exalting. It would let us make our dragons (even the ones we've had four years) look the way we want them to. It would boost the value of special-eyed dragons.
I don't know what else we would possibly want.

This is an aesthetics-based breeding game. It makes sense that they would want to put more an emphasis on the breeding. But not at the expense of the aesthetic.
Cutting off one leg might make your other leg stronger, but it doesn't mean it's a good idea.

Almedha

644

451

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September 17, 2019 15:46:26

@pfvupl
I know you've been bombarded with pings, so sorry if you don't want this, but I honestly don understand where in the world you're coming from? You say people feel entitled to having their dragons look the way they want them to, but you also have no problem with the solution that Galore periodically hand out vials for already-released eyes?

Is this real life?

I don't know what you find appealing or want out of the eye update, but here's what I want:

1. I want dragons hatched with rare eyes like primal and multi to be unilaterally valuable and/or exciting to get. Even those ugly fodder babies I'm sure we all breed from time to time.
2. I want it to feel like an accomplishment when I get a dragon I want with rare eyes.

Neither of these is true, and I believe the first thing that I want was actually what the staff was trying (and failed) to do with this update.

First of all, I'd like to explain something.

RNG-based breeding like we see with the eyes is not effort. And it's not challenge.

It takes no thought whatsoever. You know what you need to do to get primal eyes on a dragon? You throw dragons on nests. It takes all of a few button clicks. I've gotten many primals and multigazes. Some very pretty ones, too.

Achieving special eyes requires no thought and no work.
On the large scale, that's not how you retain players.

You retain players with visible stepping stones toward a goal. You dangle a goal in front of your player, and then make them feel like they are working toward it.

There is no working toward RNG.

As was pointed out earlier, it's not as if you have to hatch 200 Imperials before you get your primal. You could get your primal on the second hatch; you could get it on your 500th. That's how RNG works. It's not skill and it sure as all heck isn't interesting. It's literally rolling a hundred-sided dice over and over and over hoping to land on the 100. There's a reason Yahtzee has score cards: because just rolling dice isn't a game in itself. And yet this is the game design decision that staff has made. It's somehow less interesting than Yahtzee.

Not that you need to have milestones to make a good game. But, in general, you do need players to feel like they have a way to work toward what they want.

Now, I would like the eyes to remain exclusive to breeding. I like that a lot, because I like breeding dragons and I like my dragons to sell.

This is why I think that a mechanic to transfer eyes (or magic) from one dragon to another is the best real compromise. There's a few reasons. It actually might require work or thought (depending on how the mechanic is built) and therefore a feeling of accomplishment, and it would actually make special-eyed dragons valuable.

Your Galore solution is no work, and no accomplishment. You just happen to be there at the time to get a free thing.
Good job.

My personal preference is the eye-vial for exalting method (where you have a chance--perhaps even 100%) of getting the eye type vial of the dragon that was exalted in exchange for the dragon not leaving treasure, gems, or counting toward dominance. Perhaps because they have left so much magic behind they have to spend some time recovering and so can't fight or something. This would give incentive for exalting. It would let us make our dragons (even the ones we've had four years) look the way we want them to. It would boost the value of special-eyed dragons.
I don't know what else we would possibly want.

This is an aesthetics-based breeding game. It makes sense that they would want to put more an emphasis on the breeding. But not at the expense of the aesthetic.
Cutting off one leg might make your other leg stronger, but it doesn't mean it's a good idea.

Almedha | share project
Fandragons
Lore Starts Here (WIP)
I collect Pulsing Relics!

____

Last edited on Sep 19, 2019 10:46:16 by Almedha

I'm just thinking on the exalting=possible eye vial and some of the more fine details on how it could work.

If we look at primal and how rare it is to breed, it makes more sense to me that it would have a very likely chance to give a primal vial when a primal dragon is exalted. I know a chance of failure was discussed with that particular suggestion, and I have mixed feelings about it. I also foresee problem with "how dare Player A buy my primal baby, steal its eyes, and exalt it!" That could become the new Unnamed exalt fiasco. Of course, if the eyes weren't reverted (exalting a primal dragon keeps it's eyes ont he exalt pedestal, but the exalter still has (a chance at getting?) a primal eye vial), then players would just un-exalt the primal dragon for a (chance at a?) second primal vial. This could, of course, be circumvented by coding it so dragons that had their eyes vial'ed can't be unexalted. Which means, if Player X exalts a primal eyed dragon, X gets (a chance at) a primal vial. The dragon that was exalted still has the appearance of primal eyes and can never be unexalted so as not to milk the system (thus preventing the breeder from whining about stolen eyes).

That may or may not work well. I'm not sure. It also depends a lot on if there is a failure rate and how extreme that failure rate is. Like I mentioned, with something as rare as primal is breeding-wise, it would be pretty terrible if the failure rate was also 99.5%---it would essentially make eye transfers useless to implement because the odds would be so bad they would be unfeasible.

HOWEVER, consider the same situation with Uncommon. Let's say Player Z wants to change some much loved permas simply to Uncommon, and the only method we have to transfer eyes is via exalting. So Z exalts a couple dragons with Uncommon, gets an Uncommon vial, and is happy. However, consider the sheer vast number of Uncommon eyed dragons exalted every single day. Dom-heavy players would literally be swimming in tint eye vials, making them effectively worthless. Granted, tint eye types don't change the monetary value of a dragon at all, so maybe that's a moot point. Except for the sheer amount of hoard clutter that would happen.

Again, this could be mitigated by having exalt-based eye transfers with a fail rate. With as common as Uncommon is, even a 99.5% failure rate wouldn't bad (unlike the Primal example given above). Of course, there still is potential for drama from breeders complaining about stolen eyes even if the original type was just Unusual, Uncommon, or Rare--but this could again be mitigated by having dragons that had their eyes transferred ineligible for unexalting.

It could also be an opt-in thing. Instead of exalting automatically rewarding (a chance at) an eye vial (as it does treasure and the occassional gems), players need to go through a process, use an item, select an option, or work with an NPC to get (a chance at) an eye vial off of an exalt dragon. This could even come with a fee, meaning this process could act as a treasure and/or item sink. It would also get players to spend a bit more time engaged on FR, which is also good for the site.

Again though, I don't know how a failure rate should be factored in. A high failure rate means this feature would be all but useless with the rarest eyes, while a low failure rate means an over-abundance of the commonest types. I suppose it could be possible that FR would code each eye type on this feature differently where the rarest eyes have the highest chances of success. I also am not sure how this would work with unnatural eyes--could players use it to transfer glowing or dark sclera or spiral from dragons they no longer want those eyes on back into a vial to put a new dragon? I guess I don't see the harm, but it again depends on the odds. If not, then it would have to be coded that unnatural eye types aren't eligible for eye transfers (whether or not exalting is involved as there also is an eye transfer suggestion).

FR could also combine solutions. For example, eye transfer-based exalting but we also get a scattervial in the MP that has all the tints in it. That way, FR could have a moderate failure rate, but with an always available new scattervial, players wouldn't constantly gamble for Unusual, Uncommon, and Rare (they would just try scattering) thus perhaps mitigating the potential over-abundance of tint vials transfer-exalting would create. I really hope I'm still making sense. FR could also limit the number of exalt-eligible transfer vial gambles. For example, each player can use the feature, and it has a fairly high success rate, but they only can use the NPC/make the trade/select that option once every few weeks. If there is an eye-transfer cool down so to speak, perhaps it could even vary like breed cool downs do. What I mean is, say I exalt a Rare eyed dragon for (a chance at) a rare eyed tint vial, I have a five day cooldown before I can try to transfer any eye type. Uncommon might only be one single day; primal might be a month or more. This way could prevent the market from being flooded (as any player could at most only get 12 primal or multi vials a year directly, and considering how big lairs are, it could take a long time to get primal and multi on all permas); however, it would also keep players who just want simple tints from getting frustrated by month-long cooldowns ( I mean, really, why should a player have to wait a full month or more just to get Uncommon?).

I hope that all made sense; half of it is mostly thinking aloud. But I was trying to consider all angles and how they would work, feasibility, and trouble-shoot any potential issues.

gemajgall

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September 18, 2019 08:51:01

I'm just thinking on the exalting=possible eye vial and some of the more fine details on how it could work.

If we look at primal and how rare it is to breed, it makes more sense to me that it would have a very likely chance to give a primal vial when a primal dragon is exalted. I know a chance of failure was discussed with that particular suggestion, and I have mixed feelings about it. I also foresee problem with "how dare Player A buy my primal baby, steal its eyes, and exalt it!" That could become the new Unnamed exalt fiasco. Of course, if the eyes weren't reverted (exalting a primal dragon keeps it's eyes ont he exalt pedestal, but the exalter still has (a chance at getting?) a primal eye vial), then players would just un-exalt the primal dragon for a (chance at a?) second primal vial. This could, of course, be circumvented by coding it so dragons that had their eyes vial'ed can't be unexalted. Which means, if Player X exalts a primal eyed dragon, X gets (a chance at) a primal vial. The dragon that was exalted still has the appearance of primal eyes and can never be unexalted so as not to milk the system (thus preventing the breeder from whining about stolen eyes).

That may or may not work well. I'm not sure. It also depends a lot on if there is a failure rate and how extreme that failure rate is. Like I mentioned, with something as rare as primal is breeding-wise, it would be pretty terrible if the failure rate was also 99.5%---it would essentially make eye transfers useless to implement because the odds would be so bad they would be unfeasible.

HOWEVER, consider the same situation with Uncommon. Let's say Player Z wants to change some much loved permas simply to Uncommon, and the only method we have to transfer eyes is via exalting. So Z exalts a couple dragons with Uncommon, gets an Uncommon vial, and is happy. However, consider the sheer vast number of Uncommon eyed dragons exalted every single day. Dom-heavy players would literally be swimming in tint eye vials, making them effectively worthless. Granted, tint eye types don't change the monetary value of a dragon at all, so maybe that's a moot point. Except for the sheer amount of hoard clutter that would happen.

Again, this could be mitigated by having exalt-based eye transfers with a fail rate. With as common as Uncommon is, even a 99.5% failure rate wouldn't bad (unlike the Primal example given above). Of course, there still is potential for drama from breeders complaining about stolen eyes even if the original type was just Unusual, Uncommon, or Rare--but this could again be mitigated by having dragons that had their eyes transferred ineligible for unexalting.

It could also be an opt-in thing. Instead of exalting automatically rewarding (a chance at) an eye vial (as it does treasure and the occassional gems), players need to go through a process, use an item, select an option, or work with an NPC to get (a chance at) an eye vial off of an exalt dragon. This could even come with a fee, meaning this process could act as a treasure and/or item sink. It would also get players to spend a bit more time engaged on FR, which is also good for the site.

Again though, I don't know how a failure rate should be factored in. A high failure rate means this feature would be all but useless with the rarest eyes, while a low failure rate means an over-abundance of the commonest types. I suppose it could be possible that FR would code each eye type on this feature differently where the rarest eyes have the highest chances of success. I also am not sure how this would work with unnatural eyes--could players use it to transfer glowing or dark sclera or spiral from dragons they no longer want those eyes on back into a vial to put a new dragon? I guess I don't see the harm, but it again depends on the odds. If not, then it would have to be coded that unnatural eye types aren't eligible for eye transfers (whether or not exalting is involved as there also is an eye transfer suggestion).

FR could also combine solutions. For example, eye transfer-based exalting but we also get a scattervial in the MP that has all the tints in it. That way, FR could have a moderate failure rate, but with an always available new scattervial, players wouldn't constantly gamble for Unusual, Uncommon, and Rare (they would just try scattering) thus perhaps mitigating the potential over-abundance of tint vials transfer-exalting would create. I really hope I'm still making sense. FR could also limit the number of exalt-eligible transfer vial gambles. For example, each player can use the feature, and it has a fairly high success rate, but they only can use the NPC/make the trade/select that option once every few weeks. If there is an eye-transfer cool down so to speak, perhaps it could even vary like breed cool downs do. What I mean is, say I exalt a Rare eyed dragon for (a chance at) a rare eyed tint vial, I have a five day cooldown before I can try to transfer any eye type. Uncommon might only be one single day; primal might be a month or more. This way could prevent the market from being flooded (as any player could at most only get 12 primal or multi vials a year directly, and considering how big lairs are, it could take a long time to get primal and multi on all permas); however, it would also keep players who just want simple tints from getting frustrated by month-long cooldowns ( I mean, really, why should a player have to wait a full month or more just to get Uncommon?).

I hope that all made sense; half of it is mostly thinking aloud. But I was trying to consider all angles and how they would work, feasibility, and trouble-shoot any potential issues.

Pings are disabled.

If writers are supposed to "show not tell," why are we called "storytellers" and not "storyshow-ers"?

On semi-hiatus, but I'd like to pop in and thank @beautifulglitter for correcting my Imperial math. It's a gorgeously precise post and I love it

Ridara

375

98

771

6492

September 18, 2019 09:16:48

On semi-hiatus, but I'd like to pop in and thank @beautifulglitter for correcting my Imperial math. It's a gorgeously precise post and I love it

It takes Twelve Years for one Imperial pair to produce a Primal-eyed offspring of a specific sex. Goal-based breeding is dead.