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TOPIC | Science of Sornieth
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@searaccoon AAAAAA OMG OKAY big preesh and respecc for that
@searaccoon AAAAAA OMG OKAY big preesh and respecc for that
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OKAY, I just came back to this thread because I was offline alot and after finally feeding my dragons again I went ahead and dove into this thread (and the other ones!) once more and I have to admit that I just like reading it from time to time (some updates or just reread entire thing). I love reading this kind of stuff and that its about/in FR just puts the cherry on top. Its alot of fun to read and I hope you don't mind a bookworm here sometimes xD
Huge respect for being this informative and making it so fun to read, even though I am not the best at these topics (I have trouble learning things that I am not interested in, so its cheers me up to see that I am in fact not stupid after all, just I guess very uhm special...)
Anywaysas, I send lots of eggs in these trying times! :D
I hope you like eggs- I'll send ghost hugs too just in case <-<
OKAY, I just came back to this thread because I was offline alot and after finally feeding my dragons again I went ahead and dove into this thread (and the other ones!) once more and I have to admit that I just like reading it from time to time (some updates or just reread entire thing). I love reading this kind of stuff and that its about/in FR just puts the cherry on top. Its alot of fun to read and I hope you don't mind a bookworm here sometimes xD
Huge respect for being this informative and making it so fun to read, even though I am not the best at these topics (I have trouble learning things that I am not interested in, so its cheers me up to see that I am in fact not stupid after all, just I guess very uhm special...)
Anywaysas, I send lots of eggs in these trying times! :D
I hope you like eggs- I'll send ghost hugs too just in case <-<
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@quetzalix AAWWWW thank you so much, I am so happy to hear that you like this!! There's no such thing as stupid, you can either not know something and are ready to learn or you can not know something and continue to reject information. The latter of course is objectively bad.

and WDYM EGGS OH MY GOD
@quetzalix AAWWWW thank you so much, I am so happy to hear that you like this!! There's no such thing as stupid, you can either not know something and are ready to learn or you can not know something and continue to reject information. The latter of course is objectively bad.

and WDYM EGGS OH MY GOD
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@natron

:)
@natron

:)
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@Natron this is soo so so pretty! I find very few flaws (as a self-educated science geek, that is), but I would like to add a few things. Whether or not you add this is outside of my intentions. Now, sit down and let's read a little about how I can debunk some of FlightRising's official concept art(and maybe some other art! Not that there's anything wrong with it) in just a few paragraphs. (After an introductory kick-off!) Ok, so to kick off a semi-decent topical sentence, I'd like to say that this is about the wing anatomy, and maybe a little about the families that we can sort these dragons into. These are topics I find the most argument around, but most of the theories and/or supposed scientific flaws I find are perfectly false. And before continuing on, I do not demand, require, or even [i]want[/i] any of this to be taken as directions when drawing and/or creating some form of opinionated/expressioned piece of delicate framework. I simply urge those who see it to take into consideration what I have for proper anatomy in the science of these magnificent lizards. Draw them how you want! Your art is beautiful the way you like it. Now that we're done with boring disclaimers, one more thing: I tend to make sentences long and board to fit an exact description of what I want to say, so I apologize if the following is hard to read. I only sound smart because I use big big words. Finally! We can start. Wings. Let's start off by answering an important question: 1.) What's wrong with the anatomy of FR's dragons (when it comes to wings)? Well, to answer that we must first ask ourselves a slightly broader question: How on earth could dragons fly? Not with wings like this!!!: [img]https://cdn.picpng.com/dragon/dragon-silhouette-monster-57489.png[/img] And I'll tell you why!! See, we must first look into the science of a bird wing. How does it fly? First, let's reference a few images: [img]http://66.media.tumblr.com/0cfa96b05e012075c2f844761ae89498/tumblr_mk23g5vvmp1rx06nvo2_1280.png[/img]([url=https://images.search.yahoo.com/images/view;_ylt=Awr9F6.sxPBhc1wA3N6JzbkF;_ylu=c2VjA3NyBHNsawNpbWcEb2lkAzdmYzA4OTExYzcwNzFjMWNiYzg4MDYxMTM2YjA4NGZiBGdwb3MDMTA5BGl0A2Jpbmc-?back=https%3A%2F%2Fimages.search.yahoo.com%2Fsearch%2Fimages%3Fp%3Dbird%2Bflying%2Bscience%26type%3DE210US91088G0%26fr%3Dmcafee%26fr2%3Dpiv-web%26nost%3D1%26tab%3Dorganic%26ri%3D109&w=907&h=385&imgurl=66.media.tumblr.com%2F0cfa96b05e012075c2f844761ae89498%2Ftumblr_mk23g5vvmp1rx06nvo2_1280.png&rurl=http%3A%2F%2Fsciencesoup.tumblr.com%2Fpost%2F46029191103%2Fthe-nano-hummingbird-a-bird-based-flying&size=210.8KB&p=bird+flying+science&oid=7fc08911c7071c1cbc88061136b084fb&fr2=piv-web&fr=mcafee&tt=science+in+a+can%2C+The+Nano+Hummingbird%3A+a+bird-based+flying...&b=61&ni=21&no=109&ts=&tab=organic&sigr=49aaEqKuYogV&sigb=c7Kkm4NiM12U&sigi=_YdG_rcfY.gL&sigt=Bh_FQCt6V_5R&.crumb=yxjzcyLV7Gy&fr=mcafee&fr2=piv-web&type=E210US91088G0.]Source[/url]) [img]https://flightofthebirds.weebly.com/uploads/3/2/4/8/3248983/2387838.gif[/img] ([url=https://flightofthebirds.weebly.com/science-of-bird-flight.html#:~:text=The%20Science%20of%20Bird%20flight%20How%20Birds%20Fly,fly%2C%20air%20goes%20above%20and%20below%20the%20airfoil.]Source[/url]) The following images may not be worth all that, but I'll explain them as I go. The second image shows air flowing around the wing. This elaborates around the reason birds fly: Birds fly because of their wing shape. But that's not all. The wing, extending along the whole body, takes a teardrop pattern, which allows for lift. But how? The dip in the wing creates a pocket of vacuum space that needs to be filled, and when air crashes in to fill the gap, it lifts the bird up! There are other nitpicks and pockets to flying, like tilting wings to go up or down or left or right or hot air and cold air, etc, etc (as shown in the first picture), but we're forgetting one very, very important fact. [quote]The wing, extending along the whole body,[/quote] This! See, we overlook this part because birds have relatively stubby bodies. No shape, no curves. Just kinda... pear-shaped. SO when we look and see that the bird's wing extends all down their body, we say "oh! That's because the body is short" but look closer. If the wing were shorter, air would escape into the sides, or "holes" in the "sail". While the teardrop shape of the wing is still there(as it could be in the dragon shown at the very top of the page), the air now no longer fills in only at the top of the wing where the lift is created, but also at the sides and this could be very exhausting. While, yes, I'm well aware that there is no connecting membrane on a bird's wings, and sometimes when extended to flap (as if in take-off), the wings separate from the body, but this does not change this simple fact: the dragons in Sorneith don't have fully-feathered wings!! The feathers on, say, a bird's wings help it fly and create a kind of insulation that binds ("Knit" would be a better word) the pocket of space that membrane would do in place of feathers. The dragons in Sorneith have a membrane wing and not the feathery wing that birds have. There are many ways this theory could be argued against with simple explanations like "but the feathers of the wing don't connect to the bird's body" and while you may be right, think of why bird wings look like the image on the left instead of the image on the right. [center][img]blob:https://imgur.com/da165f5c-0c6f-4d8b-90a3-81dea628c60f[/img][/center] ([img]https://www.audubon.org/news/behind-scenes-worlds-largest-bird-wing-collection[/img]) Poorly edited by me for non-profit educational purposes In fact, you can test the law of the vacuum lift yourself! Grab a piece of paper and hold it flat just below your lower lip. Make sure it's hanging off (like a beard, kinda.) Now blow over the top of it. You'll notice the paper will rise! This is because by blowing the air off the top, you are creating a vacuum of space that needs to be filled and in doing to lifts the paper! Magic, innit?? So, in conclusion, the dragon's wings would (SCIENTIFICALLY) need to look less like the image on the right, and more like the image on the left. [img]https://i.imgur.com/qC44Mrh.jpg[/img] (Art hurriedly and poorly drawn by me) The wings would need to extend past the legs in order to support the full weight of the dragon. It's also possible to have wings like Toothless the Dragon where the wings don't extend fully but have a flap that can extend and fold during flight. This flap acts like a tail, and would likely also be necessary in the flight of the dragon, but it would be somewhat bypassable scientifically if the tail was flat enough. If the flap was removed, the tail could be used instead as a gliding snake does in "flight" or a cheetah does whilst running full speed on the ground. [img]http://ih3.redbubble.net/image.37833410.6152/pp,550x550.u2.png[/img] (image found on google images with a link to redbubble. artist unknown) Thanks for listening to my rant! I hope this helps anyone that comes across it. Might be back later for a passionate rant about categorizing dragons in the "that's not a dragon! It's a wyvern >:C" oi,,,... like the wind, I'm gone
@Natron this is soo so so pretty! I find very few flaws (as a self-educated science geek, that is), but I would like to add a few things.

Whether or not you add this is outside of my intentions.


Now, sit down and let's read a little about how I can debunk some of FlightRising's official concept art(and maybe some other art! Not that there's anything wrong with it) in just a few paragraphs.
(After an introductory kick-off!)

Ok, so to kick off a semi-decent topical sentence, I'd like to say that this is about the wing anatomy, and maybe a little about the families that we can sort these dragons into. These are topics I find the most argument around, but most of the theories and/or supposed scientific flaws I find are perfectly false. And before continuing on, I do not demand, require, or even want any of this to be taken as directions when drawing and/or creating some form of opinionated/expressioned piece of delicate framework. I simply urge those who see it to take into consideration what I have for proper anatomy in the science of these magnificent lizards. Draw them how you want! Your art is beautiful the way you like it.

Now that we're done with boring disclaimers, one more thing: I tend to make sentences long and board to fit an exact description of what I want to say, so I apologize if the following is hard to read. I only sound smart because I use big big words.

Finally! We can start.

Wings. Let's start off by answering an important question:

1.) What's wrong with the anatomy of FR's dragons (when it comes to wings)? Well, to answer that we must first ask ourselves a slightly broader question: How on earth could dragons fly? Not with wings like this!!!:

dragon-silhouette-monster-57489.png

And I'll tell you why!! See, we must first look into the science of a bird wing. How does it fly? First, let's reference a few images:
tumblr_mk23g5vvmp1rx06nvo2_1280.png(Source)
2387838.gif
(Source)

The following images may not be worth all that, but I'll explain them as I go.

The second image shows air flowing around the wing. This elaborates around the reason birds fly: Birds fly because of their wing shape. But that's not all. The wing, extending along the whole body, takes a teardrop pattern, which allows for lift. But how? The dip in the wing creates a pocket of vacuum space that needs to be filled, and when air crashes in to fill the gap, it lifts the bird up! There are other nitpicks and pockets to flying, like tilting wings to go up or down or left or right or hot air and cold air, etc, etc (as shown in the first picture), but we're forgetting one very, very important fact.
Quote:
The wing, extending along the whole body,
This! See, we overlook this part because birds have relatively stubby bodies. No shape, no curves. Just kinda... pear-shaped. SO when we look and see that the bird's wing extends all down their body, we say "oh! That's because the body is short" but look closer.

If the wing were shorter, air would escape into the sides, or "holes" in the "sail". While the teardrop shape of the wing is still there(as it could be in the dragon shown at the very top of the page), the air now no longer fills in only at the top of the wing where the lift is created, but also at the sides and this could be very exhausting.

While, yes, I'm well aware that there is no connecting membrane on a bird's wings, and sometimes when extended to flap (as if in take-off), the wings separate from the body, but this does not change this simple fact: the dragons in Sorneith don't have fully-feathered wings!! The feathers on, say, a bird's wings help it fly and create a kind of insulation that binds ("Knit" would be a better word) the pocket of space that membrane would do in place of feathers. The dragons in Sorneith have a membrane wing and not the feathery wing that birds have.

There are many ways this theory could be argued against with simple explanations like "but the feathers of the wing don't connect to the bird's body" and while you may be right, think of why bird wings look like the image on the left instead of the image on the right.
[img]blob:https://imgur.com/da165f5c-0c6f-4d8b-90a3-81dea628c60f[/img]
([img]https://www.audubon.org/news/behind-scenes-worlds-largest-bird-wing-collection[/img]) Poorly edited by me for non-profit educational purposes

In fact, you can test the law of the vacuum lift yourself! Grab a piece of paper and hold it flat just below your lower lip. Make sure it's hanging off (like a beard, kinda.) Now blow over the top of it. You'll notice the paper will rise! This is because by blowing the air off the top, you are creating a vacuum of space that needs to be filled and in doing to lifts the paper! Magic, innit??

So, in conclusion, the dragon's wings would (SCIENTIFICALLY) need to look less like the image on the right, and more like the image on the left.
qC44Mrh.jpg
(Art hurriedly and poorly drawn by me)

The wings would need to extend past the legs in order to support the full weight of the dragon. It's also possible to have wings like Toothless the Dragon where the wings don't extend fully but have a flap that can extend and fold during flight. This flap acts like a tail, and would likely also be necessary in the flight of the dragon, but it would be somewhat bypassable scientifically if the tail was flat enough. If the flap was removed, the tail could be used instead as a gliding snake does in "flight" or a cheetah does whilst running full speed on the ground.
pp,550x550.u2.png
(image found on google images with a link to redbubble. artist unknown)

Thanks for listening to my rant! I hope this helps anyone that comes across it. Might be back later for a passionate rant about categorizing dragons in the "that's not a dragon! It's a wyvern >:C"

oi,,,...

like the wind, I'm gone
SOpef69.gif Bleu|Christian

FR Time +0
Single haha
She/Her
3DReferences!
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@bluefalha I do believe you meant left instead of right and vice versa (when referring to the Spiral wing art)

thank you so much for your input, that was awesome ;w; ♥ I didn't see you mention the physique of flight feathers themselves (maybe I have mentioned it somewhere in that wall of text, I genuinely don't remember anymore) but those generate lift simply by being curved. I know I have talked about it at least once somewhere but I managed to generate lift while in a car with one single feather by holding it in the right position in my hand, while making my arm as aerodynamic as possible (like the bird's) so yeah, imagine what a whole bunch of feathers does.

Your info is of incredible importance. I don't know if you've seen my art but, in case you have, I haven't actually drawn any of the dragons as capable of sustaining flight. I tried keeping this sort of...general FR body shape because, if I actually went ahead and tried to draw a FR dragon as realistically as possible, they would be practically unrecognisable.

Also, I see you mentioned some flaws - do lemme know about those so I can take a look at it (for example, the phylogeny of the dragons on site simply cannot be considered at face value, they would have to be severely edited for them to fit in closely related groups)
@bluefalha I do believe you meant left instead of right and vice versa (when referring to the Spiral wing art)

thank you so much for your input, that was awesome ;w; ♥ I didn't see you mention the physique of flight feathers themselves (maybe I have mentioned it somewhere in that wall of text, I genuinely don't remember anymore) but those generate lift simply by being curved. I know I have talked about it at least once somewhere but I managed to generate lift while in a car with one single feather by holding it in the right position in my hand, while making my arm as aerodynamic as possible (like the bird's) so yeah, imagine what a whole bunch of feathers does.

Your info is of incredible importance. I don't know if you've seen my art but, in case you have, I haven't actually drawn any of the dragons as capable of sustaining flight. I tried keeping this sort of...general FR body shape because, if I actually went ahead and tried to draw a FR dragon as realistically as possible, they would be practically unrecognisable.

Also, I see you mentioned some flaws - do lemme know about those so I can take a look at it (for example, the phylogeny of the dragons on site simply cannot be considered at face value, they would have to be severely edited for them to fit in closely related groups)
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good lords this is amazing !! i was only able to skim bc im at work and its too early to think but i WILL get back to this. cannot wait to read this in it's entirety, esp with the other comments :V
good lords this is amazing !! i was only able to skim bc im at work and its too early to think but i WILL get back to this. cannot wait to read this in it's entirety, esp with the other comments :V
7CSi0T0.png
let go let go let go let golet go
CONGREGATION OF
THE WITHERING LAMENT

letOdds-2-bottom.png
@offcular JSKJDKJdf GOOD, there are some awesome contributions from others, I highly recommend!
@offcular JSKJDKJdf GOOD, there are some awesome contributions from others, I highly recommend!
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@Natron
yeah it looks like it !! this was shared in a fr server and i opened it and i just went 'hm. that's a lot of words !!!!' amazing how y'all just think of these things and then back it up with science ??? in ur spare time ?? FOR FREE ?!?! mind blowing. love this
@Natron
yeah it looks like it !! this was shared in a fr server and i opened it and i just went 'hm. that's a lot of words !!!!' amazing how y'all just think of these things and then back it up with science ??? in ur spare time ?? FOR FREE ?!?! mind blowing. love this
7CSi0T0.png
let go let go let go let golet go
CONGREGATION OF
THE WITHERING LAMENT

letOdds-2-bottom.png
@offcular one of my primary objectives in life is to make knowledge free and accessible to people. I know I'm contradicting myself a bit when this is a wall of text but this cannot be explained in a few words and I need to elaborate. So, to those who have a hard time reading, I suggest some sort of text-to-speech add-on or something (if it helps) So yeah, there are people who can be intimidated by this sort of writing type but here's something that could be helpful (to whoever needs to see this) [img]https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/692556220271296513/933091154336038952/271943666_10166309861025597_4348250492910627581_n.png[/img] [b]Point 5:[/b] not only do I not know when to shut up, I also have extensive knowledge about many scientific topics AND a trait very often found in people who are either ND or have trauma is to info-dump and over-explain because, as it's shown in point 8, many individuals are sensitive to constant patronising, dismissive behaviour, negative feedback or harassment, etc. I will occasionally share some information on social media and keep it short and then get swarmed by people who are calling me names and insulting me, patronising me and questioning my knowledge, only to be forced to write them an entire essay just to prove to them that I do in fact know exactly what I'm talking about. I think that's because the algorithm is sharing posts usually frequented by very specific users. No wonder why I learned to go into immense detail and use scientific terms. Some people tried xsplaining things to me or try to correct me when they were completely wrong and...what do I even do then .e. Aight, I went on a tangent, I apologise
@offcular one of my primary objectives in life is to make knowledge free and accessible to people. I know I'm contradicting myself a bit when this is a wall of text but this cannot be explained in a few words and I need to elaborate. So, to those who have a hard time reading, I suggest some sort of text-to-speech add-on or something (if it helps)

So yeah, there are people who can be intimidated by this sort of writing type but here's something that could be helpful (to whoever needs to see this)

271943666_10166309861025597_4348250492910627581_n.png

Point 5: not only do I not know when to shut up, I also have extensive knowledge about many scientific topics AND a trait very often found in people who are either ND or have trauma is to info-dump and over-explain because, as it's shown in point 8, many individuals are sensitive to constant patronising, dismissive behaviour, negative feedback or harassment, etc. I will occasionally share some information on social media and keep it short and then get swarmed by people who are calling me names and insulting me, patronising me and questioning my knowledge, only to be forced to write them an entire essay just to prove to them that I do in fact know exactly what I'm talking about. I think that's because the algorithm is sharing posts usually frequented by very specific users.
No wonder why I learned to go into immense detail and use scientific terms. Some people tried xsplaining things to me or try to correct me when they were completely wrong and...what do I even do then .e.

Aight, I went on a tangent, I apologise
Link to art shopLink to skin shopImage depicting a large blue crab carrying produce on their back, its purpose being a background element for the signatureLink to a personal log thread containing various different links, information and sources
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