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[quote name="figura" date="2024-01-26 23:43:31" ] (Regarding the recent Gilded Crown situation, I think it’s odd to suggest that it “proves” that this is an issue, when the user’s past multi-ing didn’t have any actual connection to the raffle? This was a “make sure cheaters don’t prosper in general” ban, not an “actually cheated specifically in order to have a better chance at the raffle” ban. There’s no doubt that feelings run high around these items, I just don’t think this specific case quite applies.) [/quote] How do you know this is the case? It just as possible that this cheating was a habitual thing for the user as it is that they cheated specifically for the raffle. Maybe they only cheated for exceptionally expensive raffles. Either way, the only issue that the crown situation proves (and, indeed, it does [i]prove[/i] it) is that people cheat to gain an advantage in Roundsey, because it was a public failure of the ability to catch rule-breakers before they are rewarded for their cheating. We [i]thought[/i] before that lots of people multi-account to cheat at Roundsey - and we have seen it proven that that people do. To be sure, we still only [i]think[/i] that people engage in other types of cheating in order to obtain these high-value items. But how does this situation not at least prove that people will multi-account to gain an advantage to gain expensive items - which includes KS items?

[quote name="Contaminate" date="2024-01-26 16:31:53" ] There is absolutely nothing wrong with them falling entirely out of circulation. They were never intended as items anyone could be able to get. They were specifically for the KS campaign. 'I want them' is not a valid justification for acting like anyone's being slighted [/quote] Sure. I'll bite this once. Since you've previously haven't added to the discussion in the past. This is the only reply I'm adding to you. As this game grows every day, month, year there will always be people wanting to collect items. Past decisions the Admins made are only going to make it worse in the game later. We can see this same thing play out in other browser pet games. The economy gets worse if not managed. People want to save up for goals. A lot of them happen to be familiars and apparel in this game with also dragons. There is no "I want it now". People are saying to the admins to "please look at the game again". Because at the moment it is getting worse for trying to save and aquire items. Goal posts are moved. Raffles get flooded by multis. Bot problems. Hoarding and driving markets up too quickly. But please still go on with the elitism that drives other games to becoming impossible to play and save for goals. When it starts to take years 5 to 10 years to save then what. Give other parts of the game a function to make them survive into the future. KS items can be released again. Backer orders were already fulfilled. Legally, the admins can release KS items like how other games have. Make them goals people can work towards. The achievement system is perfect for those items. And if the elites are still up in arms, make them account locked. Elitism ruins markets and games. Just look at other pet sites.

[quote name="Anky" date="2024-01-27 12:45:13" ] [quote name="Contaminate" date="2024-01-26 16:31:53" ] There is absolutely nothing wrong with them falling entirely out of circulation. They were never intended as items anyone could be able to get. They were specifically for the KS campaign. 'I want them' is not a valid justification for acting like anyone's being slighted [/quote] Sure. I'll bite this once. Since you've previously haven't added to the discussion in the past. This is the only reply I'm adding to you. As this game grows every day, month, year there will always be people wanting to collect items. Past decisions the Admins made are only going to make it worse in the game later. We can see this same thing play out in other browser pet games. The economy gets worse if not managed. People want to save up for goals. A lot of them happen to be familiars and apparel in this game with also dragons. There is no "I want it now". People are saying to the admins to "please look at the game again". Because at the moment it is getting worse for trying to save and aquire items. Goal posts are moved. Raffles get flooded by multis. Bot problems. Hoarding and driving markets up too quickly. But please still go on with the elitism that drives other games to becoming impossible to play and save for goals. When it starts to take years 5 to 10 years to save then what. Give other parts of the game a function to make them survive into the future. KS items can be released again. Backer orders were already fulfilled. Legally, the admins can release KS items like how other games have. Make them goals people can work towards. The achievement system is perfect for those items. And if the elites are still up in arms, make them account locked. Elitism ruins markets and games. Just look at other pet sites. [/quote] I have actually contributed plenty to these sort of discussions, waaaayyy back when retirement of festival items was being brought up for contention. Items should have continued retiring. You crying 'elitist' at people who [i]don't[/i] own KS items and simply respect the stance of the staff that they have made clear time and time again to not rerelease them, does absolutely nothing to me. I don't care what names you want to throw around because no one has supplied any actual reason that these items - [i]explicitly offered as thanks for a specific contribution toward the site's growth[/i] - should be available to everyone just because they want it. When those items fall out of circulation, that is a-ok. There are plenty more items to set goals for whether its a particular XXX, an old anniversary items, a specific UMA. [u]Absolutely no one is entitled to items that have been made clear from day 1 to be limited and finite.[/u]

Support.
i feel like a lot of older players forget that a good amount, probably even the majority, of players are teenagers who have no hope of getting the items as it is. at least the older players could buy gems or had the chance to throw 40$ at the kickstarter ~10 years ago, but a lot of the younger players would have been way too young to support (as in, barely in primary school during launch, and the youngest TOS-safe players today would have still been toddlers) and asking them to just shell out the money for a single skycat or imp scroll is completely unreasonable unless their parents are both rich and would allow it.

Support any way to bring back KS items.

"KS items" is just a fancy way of saying "preorder bonus", and there's a reason those are seen as predatory marketing nowadays. My favourite game offers preorder bonus items after the fact as a "digital upgrade", an extra payment and you get the bonus items added to your account. I think that's a decent way to do preorder bonuses, since it lets you still support the game even if you decide to first look around and see if the game is worth it for you.

Also this game could use some long term goals. I wouldn't mind saving up for some 50kg-100kg goals, if that price stayed stable and didn't keep going up. Also I do not care much about familiars, personally I care more about the .png I can customize rather than the static .png sitting next to it :')

[quote name="Contaminate" date="2024-01-27 16:42:47" ] [quote name="Anky" date="2024-01-27 12:45:13" ] [quote name="Contaminate" date="2024-01-26 16:31:53" ] There is absolutely nothing wrong with them falling entirely out of circulation. They were never intended as items anyone could be able to get. They were specifically for the KS campaign. 'I want them' is not a valid justification for acting like anyone's being slighted [/quote] Sure. I'll bite this once. Since you've previously haven't added to the discussion in the past. This is the only reply I'm adding to you. As this game grows every day, month, year there will always be people wanting to collect items. Past decisions the Admins made are only going to make it worse in the game later. We can see this same thing play out in other browser pet games. The economy gets worse if not managed. People want to save up for goals. A lot of them happen to be familiars and apparel in this game with also dragons. There is no "I want it now". People are saying to the admins to "please look at the game again". Because at the moment it is getting worse for trying to save and aquire items. Goal posts are moved. Raffles get flooded by multis. Bot problems. Hoarding and driving markets up too quickly. But please still go on with the elitism that drives other games to becoming impossible to play and save for goals. When it starts to take years 5 to 10 years to save then what. Give other parts of the game a function to make them survive into the future. KS items can be released again. Backer orders were already fulfilled. Legally, the admins can release KS items like how other games have. Make them goals people can work towards. The achievement system is perfect for those items. And if the elites are still up in arms, make them account locked. Elitism ruins markets and games. Just look at other pet sites. [/quote] I have actually contributed plenty to these sort of discussions, waaaayyy back when retirement of festival items was being brought up for contention. Items should have continued retiring. You crying 'elitist' at people who [i]don't[/i] own KS items and simply respect the stance of the staff that they have made clear time and time again to not rerelease them, does absolutely nothing to me. I don't care what names you want to throw around because no one has supplied any actual reason that these items - [i]explicitly offered as thanks for a specific contribution toward the site's growth[/i] - should be available to everyone just because they want it. When those items fall out of circulation, that is a-ok. There are plenty more items to set goals for whether its a particular XXX, an old anniversary items, a specific UMA. [u]Absolutely no one is entitled to items that have been made clear from day 1 to be limited and finite.[/u] [/quote] very much agree with this sentiment. not all items should be obtainable by any player imo. KS items in particular are special and staff reserves the right to not generate more of them, as they were REWARDS for the people that they wanted to reward. and there is no elitism here. i personally would not mind at all if these items were never circulated.

@/Contaminate (avoiding a ping to hopefully not bother you quite as much, hope that's okay)

Regarding your comment:
"no one has supplied any actual reason that these items - explicitly offered as thanks for a specific contribution toward the site's growth - should be available to everyone just because they want it.
"

This threads existence is an answer to it. The reason is that players want it. Games are meant to be fun, and yet there are many people who do not find enjoyment in feeling that these items are inaccessible. You may not agree with their reason for disappointment being valid, but their disappointment does exist, and that is undeniable.

Video games are distinct from reality. In the real world just wanting something isn't a valid excuse to justify why you deserve it, as there are limitations on the number of physical objects and an entire world filled with other people who also may deserve that thing. But video games differ, and their limitations are controllable by the developers. If players feel something is only fair to be accessible to a wider portion of the user base then they are well within their right to express this. Games have made changes for this reason in the past. It was essentially the reason that eye vials were introduced.

Limitations in games should, ideally, be made to ensure the game as an economy and items have a sense of worth and a feeling of accomplishment when obtained. When limitations are so extreme they are creating an unfun experience for players rather than a fun one, this is reason enough to make a change. There are players who would like their progens to be Imperials. There are players who have a lore reason to want KS familiars. There are players who are G1 only lairs who would like Imperials. All of these things are unavailable. These are several, different reasons that could apply to people with vastly different play styles, why someone may want to someday obtain a KS item. Sure, in reality there may be things you want you will never be able to obtain, but there is no reason that video games should be as disappointing as reality.

Additionally, you yourself stated that items should have continued retiring. And, in a sense, I agree with you. The worst part about KS items is not simply their value alone, but the fact nothing else on the site comes even remotely close to them. The most valuable item you might pick up from Joxbox is probably going to earn you about 5kg at most. However, I would argue it is this very statement itself that aids in arguing for the unretiring of KS items. A site can function with a healthy economy either by retiring items at a gradual pace, allowing items to develop value, or by never retiring any items, keeping them all at roughly the same value (as evidenced by FR's economy when we ignore the existence of KS and Y1 fest items) The site cannot recuperate from its choice to never retire items by keeping KS and Y1 fest items retired, but but it can balance the price of these items in comparison to the newer ones by deciding to unretire every item going forward. FR's system of never truly retiring items has drawn in a playerbase who enjoy the contrast this provides to other petsite. Is it any surprise that several players feel this systems should be extended to all items in the game?

As for these items being a gift to a specific group of people. Let's say that KS items were unretired, but the manner in which they were obtained was still incredibly rare. Would not the KS backers still have an advantage in this situation? They may no longer exclusively have these items (which, due to trading, these items technically aren't even exclusive anymore) but they still have them, which even after unretiring them could still be incredibly difficult to obtain.

[quote name="Technojara" date="2024-01-28 05:28:32" ] very much agree with this sentiment. not all items should be obtainable by any player imo. KS items in particular are special and staff reserves the right to not generate more of them, as they were REWARDS for the people that they wanted to reward. and there is no elitism here. i personally would not mind at all if these items were never circulated. [/quote] 1. Kickstarter backers have been fulfilled. 2. Owners of a KS CAN release the product again, as long as backers were fulfilled. Which they were fulfilled. 3. This game is a dragon dress up and customization game. There are going to be users who want to collect multiple appareal, collect familiars, etc. It is a major play style of the game. 4. People's goals are becoming unreasonable. 2.5 million gems for an Imp scroll is roughly 22,000 dollars (if using 100 dollars / 11,500 gems conversion). It was 30 dollars for 1 Imp scroll. The scroll has now almost reached the KS backer total amount and is 10,000 dollars away. IN WHAT GAME IS IT OKAY TO SELL A DIGITAL GOOD FOR THAT AMOUNT. It is the most expensive trade for a cash currency I have ever seen. No reasonable solo saving can get to that amount. It would take a solo player years to get there by just playing the base game. The Light Sprite gem price is increasing dramatically, more quick than is reasonable. People are struggling to save for a sprite. The goal post keeps moving. But this is totally a healthy economy./s 5. The game is just going to get worse for new players over time. Seen it with other pet sites. FR is 10 years old. The economy is going to be worse in another 15 years if Admins don't step in. Just look at Neopets. It took almost 25 years before change happened for the better. 6. This game has a younger audience. It's 13+. It's hard on them to save. But they are also in the group trying to save for their goals. 7. Most auctions and trades are done with gems (a cash currency). Yes we can exchange for treasure, but gems are also bought. They're tied to money. Playing free to play is a longer grind, and for most people goal posts are moved almost every week.

[quote name="Lyuna" date="2024-01-29 03:15:31" ] Would not the KS backers still have an advantage in this situation? They may no longer exclusively have these items (which, due to trading, these items technically aren't even exclusive anymore) but they still have them, which even after unretiring them could still be incredibly difficult to obtain. [/quote] Not only would they still have their original items, but they'd also be able to get even [i]more[/i] copies! (Relatedly, I remember on the forums some years ago, tales from backers who lamented using their Imp scroll on some random dragon instead of a progen, G1, or dragon they actually cared more about. I imagine a rerelease might be a very welcomed second chance for some.)

[quote name="Zenzic" date="2024-01-29 08:05:07" ] (Relatedly, I remember on the forums some years ago, tales from backers who lamented using their Imp scroll on some random dragon instead of a progen, G1, or dragon they actually cared more about. I imagine a rerelease might be a very welcomed second chance for some.) [/quote] They would be able to gene a dream dragon along with others whom have been dreaming years for the chance to. I would love to save up my achievement points for an Imp scroll. It would give me a reasonable goal to work towards. And it gives the achievement store more weight. Imp scrolls don't have to be for cheap in the achievement shop. It can be a long goal people can build to. As it stands at the moment I don't really buy from the achievement shop. Edit: Plus these things can be made to be account locked. I don't think it's necessary but it could be done. Then people couldn't complain about the economy. Just people saving for a long time to get some items. Also they could add limits like only 2 Imp scrolls a year. Account locked items.