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TOPIC | really, guys? you have to be like this?
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[quote name="LouckyKoneko" date="2024-03-20 07:46:08" ] I've been having so much trouble getting a Gold/Black/Black male from a Gold/Obs/Obs and Buttercup/Coal/Black pair... that's 1/2 primary, 1/4 secondary, 1/2 tertiary, 1/2 gender. 34 hatchlings so far. not a single hit. how in the fudge. [/quote] this one is less surprising, only a 3.125x chance of getting the hatch you want unfortunately :( personally my current breeding projects have pretty small chances too so I wouldn't be surprised if I have problems like this thread dksjdf (they're pretty new fandragon projects so idk yet) but one project has a chance of 8.25%, one has 6.25%, and one has 7.5%... so yeah, I'm going to be at these for a loooong while
LouckyKoneko wrote on 2024-03-20 07:46:08:
I've been having so much trouble getting a Gold/Black/Black male from a Gold/Obs/Obs and Buttercup/Coal/Black pair... that's 1/2 primary, 1/4 secondary, 1/2 tertiary, 1/2 gender. 34 hatchlings so far. not a single hit. how in the fudge.

this one is less surprising, only a 3.125x chance of getting the hatch you want unfortunately :(


personally my current breeding projects have pretty small chances too so I wouldn't be surprised if I have problems like this thread dksjdf (they're pretty new fandragon projects so idk yet)

but one project has a chance of 8.25%, one has 6.25%, and one has 7.5%... so yeah, I'm going to be at these for a loooong while
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club for ppl who have been gaslit by their pairs--

im saying that half joking but im also half serious, since multiple times ive had pairs fail so spectacularly and consistently that I rechecked the range of their colors since I thought, surely rng wouldnt do me wrong THAT many times, it must be I who messed up

the most egregious pair now is fixed prim and tert, and has a 1/12 chance of the right secondary--44 hatchlings. nada. somehow like a solid THIRD of those are all ivory secondary too so I think ivory as a color just has an axe to grind with folks like us
club for ppl who have been gaslit by their pairs--

im saying that half joking but im also half serious, since multiple times ive had pairs fail so spectacularly and consistently that I rechecked the range of their colors since I thought, surely rng wouldnt do me wrong THAT many times, it must be I who messed up

the most egregious pair now is fixed prim and tert, and has a 1/12 chance of the right secondary--44 hatchlings. nada. somehow like a solid THIRD of those are all ivory secondary too so I think ivory as a color just has an axe to grind with folks like us
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Ooh! I love combinatorics :D
I'll try calculating the odds of these things happening for all the posts that provide enough information to do that. if I got anything wrong, just let me know:

@Raboniel
the chance of not getting the right color is 3/4, so for that to happen 3 times, it's 3/4 * 3/4 * 3/4 = 0.42. That's a 42% chance- not as uncommon as it might seem.

@Ais
oof that's. wow. For this I'll assume that the 11th hatchling got the correct colors, so getting the incorrect tertiary 10 times in a row would be (1/2)^10, which is 1/1024, a 0.98% chance of happening!

@Achaius
Again, a 3/4 chance of not getting the right colors, and 7 dragons so far with the wrong colors. (3/4)^7 = 0.13 = 13% chance. So not really uncommon or really common.

@LouckyKoneko
Well, multiplying each chance together, 1/2 * 1/4 * 1/2 * 1/2 = 0.031 = 3.1% is your total odds of the exact right hatch. 1 - 0.031 = 0.969 = 96.9% chance of a wrong hatch. (0.969)^34 = 0.34 = 34% chance of having that number of hatchlings with no match. This really illustrates how multiplying fractions together is Really Not Ideal, which I'll go into more detail about below

@RheoTastic
Similar calculation as some of the ones above, (11/12)^44 = 0.022 = 2.2% chance. Oof.

Now for some general principles of combinatorics and probability that I find useful when doing my own breeding projects:

Say you have a project pair that has a range of 1 color above your goal to 1 color below your goal for primary, secondary, and tertiary. for the exact correct colors, that's (1/3)^3 = 1/27 = 0.037 = 3.7% chance. But for each combination that's one color off, it's a 1 * 1/3 * 1/3 = 1/9 = 0.11 = 11% chance, and there are 3 possible combinations like that, so a 33% chance total. nearly 9 times more likely than an exact match!
The numbers won't be the same for every pair, but it makes sense that 1-offs or general close colors are more likely than exact matches, especially if you have a range between colors in multiple slots (primary and secondary instead of just secondary, for example). This is because there is only 1 combination that's correct, but there can be many more combinations that are almost correct. That's why it can be really helpful to have at least two unrelated preliminary pairs for each dragon in your breeding project, then make more pairs with their one-offs and near-misses. This is a big part of how I finished a breeding pair project for a color combination in 3 different color ranges with 0 active dragons with the combination (when I started) in only 4 months.

Another part of how I did that was understanding ranges and how they work. A dragon that is "5 off" your goal but has 1/2 odds for the primary, 1/4 for the secondary, and 1/2 for the tertiary is 1/16 = 0.0625 = 6.25% chance of the right colors, whereas a dragon that is also "5 off" but only on the, say, secondary, has a 1/6 = 0.17 = 17% chance of the right colors- much better! Not all #-offs are made equal.
To put it in simpler terms, when you only have 1 color slot that's off, you're adding to the denominator of the fractions, but when there are multiple color slots that are off, you're multiplying the denominator of the fraction, which gets bigger much faster! For a visual representation of this, look at the graphs of y = x versus y = x^2.

But of course, the last part of it was simple RNG, which everyone can see by how much the odds I calculated for each person varied, from 42% to 0.98%! For that, I simply wish everyone luck, haha
Ooh! I love combinatorics :D
I'll try calculating the odds of these things happening for all the posts that provide enough information to do that. if I got anything wrong, just let me know:

@Raboniel
the chance of not getting the right color is 3/4, so for that to happen 3 times, it's 3/4 * 3/4 * 3/4 = 0.42. That's a 42% chance- not as uncommon as it might seem.

@Ais
oof that's. wow. For this I'll assume that the 11th hatchling got the correct colors, so getting the incorrect tertiary 10 times in a row would be (1/2)^10, which is 1/1024, a 0.98% chance of happening!

@Achaius
Again, a 3/4 chance of not getting the right colors, and 7 dragons so far with the wrong colors. (3/4)^7 = 0.13 = 13% chance. So not really uncommon or really common.

@LouckyKoneko
Well, multiplying each chance together, 1/2 * 1/4 * 1/2 * 1/2 = 0.031 = 3.1% is your total odds of the exact right hatch. 1 - 0.031 = 0.969 = 96.9% chance of a wrong hatch. (0.969)^34 = 0.34 = 34% chance of having that number of hatchlings with no match. This really illustrates how multiplying fractions together is Really Not Ideal, which I'll go into more detail about below

@RheoTastic
Similar calculation as some of the ones above, (11/12)^44 = 0.022 = 2.2% chance. Oof.

Now for some general principles of combinatorics and probability that I find useful when doing my own breeding projects:

Say you have a project pair that has a range of 1 color above your goal to 1 color below your goal for primary, secondary, and tertiary. for the exact correct colors, that's (1/3)^3 = 1/27 = 0.037 = 3.7% chance. But for each combination that's one color off, it's a 1 * 1/3 * 1/3 = 1/9 = 0.11 = 11% chance, and there are 3 possible combinations like that, so a 33% chance total. nearly 9 times more likely than an exact match!
The numbers won't be the same for every pair, but it makes sense that 1-offs or general close colors are more likely than exact matches, especially if you have a range between colors in multiple slots (primary and secondary instead of just secondary, for example). This is because there is only 1 combination that's correct, but there can be many more combinations that are almost correct. That's why it can be really helpful to have at least two unrelated preliminary pairs for each dragon in your breeding project, then make more pairs with their one-offs and near-misses. This is a big part of how I finished a breeding pair project for a color combination in 3 different color ranges with 0 active dragons with the combination (when I started) in only 4 months.

Another part of how I did that was understanding ranges and how they work. A dragon that is "5 off" your goal but has 1/2 odds for the primary, 1/4 for the secondary, and 1/2 for the tertiary is 1/16 = 0.0625 = 6.25% chance of the right colors, whereas a dragon that is also "5 off" but only on the, say, secondary, has a 1/6 = 0.17 = 17% chance of the right colors- much better! Not all #-offs are made equal.
To put it in simpler terms, when you only have 1 color slot that's off, you're adding to the denominator of the fractions, but when there are multiple color slots that are off, you're multiplying the denominator of the fraction, which gets bigger much faster! For a visual representation of this, look at the graphs of y = x versus y = x^2.

But of course, the last part of it was simple RNG, which everyone can see by how much the odds I calculated for each person varied, from 42% to 0.98%! For that, I simply wish everyone luck, haha
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I needed a cantaloupe/antique/rose earth gaoler for a fandragon I was making, I found a pair with a very narrow range of what I needed (primary guaranteed, secondary is a coin flip, and the tert was 1/5), breed changed them both to tuns, and it still took over 2-3 months I'm pretty sure to get the winning hatch which ended up being the wrong gender. whatever, sil scrolls exist, I was so jaded I just accepted it. worst part was that not even a week before I started this project, a gaoler with the right colors and gender was born and promptly exalted. imagine the trouble I could have been saved if I'd had been even a bit sooner :'))) the good news is she's the only active dragon on the entire site with her colors at least so that's neat, and with breed and element taken into account she's one-of-a-kind! [url=https://www1.flightrising.com/dragon/87978916][img]https://www1.flightrising.com/rendern/350/879790/87978916_350.png[/img][/url]
I needed a cantaloupe/antique/rose earth gaoler for a fandragon I was making, I found a pair with a very narrow range of what I needed (primary guaranteed, secondary is a coin flip, and the tert was 1/5), breed changed them both to tuns, and it still took over 2-3 months I'm pretty sure to get the winning hatch which ended up being the wrong gender. whatever, sil scrolls exist, I was so jaded I just accepted it.

worst part was that not even a week before I started this project, a gaoler with the right colors and gender was born and promptly exalted. imagine the trouble I could have been saved if I'd had been even a bit sooner :')))

the good news is she's the only active dragon on the entire site with her colors at least so that's neat, and with breed and element taken into account she's one-of-a-kind!
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[quote name="River64" date="2024-03-20 10:03:06" ] Again, a 3/4 chance of not getting the right colors, and 7 dragons so far with the wrong colors. (3/4)^7 = 0.13 = 13% chance. So not really uncommon or really common. [/quote] ooh, neat! Glad to see my luck has not been bad. It's actually more complex than what I stated because they also have a range of 2 on the secondary, which means a 12.5% chance of any particular hatchling being correct, so I really wouldn't expect to get it in 7 hatchlings, but I thought they would've at least gotten the tert by now. (Also your advice about making additional pairs with one-offs and near-misses is well-taken, although for this specific project I need it from these parents for lore purposes. I'll get it eventually! Hopefully.)
River64 wrote on 2024-03-20 10:03:06:
Again, a 3/4 chance of not getting the right colors, and 7 dragons so far with the wrong colors. (3/4)^7 = 0.13 = 13% chance. So not really uncommon or really common.
ooh, neat! Glad to see my luck has not been bad.

It's actually more complex than what I stated because they also have a range of 2 on the secondary, which means a 12.5% chance of any particular hatchling being correct, so I really wouldn't expect to get it in 7 hatchlings, but I thought they would've at least gotten the tert by now.

(Also your advice about making additional pairs with one-offs and near-misses is well-taken, although for this specific project I need it from these parents for lore purposes. I'll get it eventually! Hopefully.)
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@River64 ty for all the calculations!! they look sound to me, I knew of this kind of math (and I actually also like it) but I didnt know it had a name so, thank you for teaching me the word combinatorics [emoji=aether laughing size=1] it was a hard thing for me to learn bc it goes against like...visual reasoning, that pairs with ranges like 2/2/2 actually have a lower chance of getting the goal than 1/7/1, even if they look closer--thats why I invested in teaching myself this stuff. but sometimes even knowing this much cant save you on a brighter note tho the other day I hatched a dragon with crystal/shimmer despite his mom being cherub/toxin, so, I think thats like... .05%? it was an accident but, basically RNG giveth and RNG taketh away
@River64 ty for all the calculations!! they look sound to me, I knew of this kind of math (and I actually also like it) but I didnt know it had a name so, thank you for teaching me the word combinatorics it was a hard thing for me to learn bc it goes against like...visual reasoning, that pairs with ranges like 2/2/2 actually have a lower chance of getting the goal than 1/7/1, even if they look closer--thats why I invested in teaching myself this stuff. but sometimes even knowing this much cant save you

on a brighter note tho the other day I hatched a dragon with crystal/shimmer despite his mom being cherub/toxin, so, I think thats like... .05%? it was an accident but, basically RNG giveth and RNG taketh away
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@river64
thank you for doing the math! it's that secondary that always gets me, if there was a closer female available I would switch in a heartbeat but I can't find anything closer than 3 off in the right direction.
oh well, at least I get cute wild horsie themed hatchies out of the fails, and I did already save a very close miss from a recent nest as a backup plan.
@river64
thank you for doing the math! it's that secondary that always gets me, if there was a closer female available I would switch in a heartbeat but I can't find anything closer than 3 off in the right direction.
oh well, at least I get cute wild horsie themed hatchies out of the fails, and I did already save a very close miss from a recent nest as a backup plan.
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I was trying to make a particular dragon scry (who happened to have Primal Fire eyes) and sent a pair off to to a Fire nest.

Primary chances - 1 in 4
Secondary chances - 1 in 9 (this one was a risk, admittedly)
Tert chances - 100%

The first dragon I got back had the correct primary, the correct tert (of course) and natural born Fire Primal.

And the wrong secondary.

I kept her anyway, but I was very mad about it.
I was trying to make a particular dragon scry (who happened to have Primal Fire eyes) and sent a pair off to to a Fire nest.

Primary chances - 1 in 4
Secondary chances - 1 in 9 (this one was a risk, admittedly)
Tert chances - 100%

The first dragon I got back had the correct primary, the correct tert (of course) and natural born Fire Primal.

And the wrong secondary.

I kept her anyway, but I was very mad about it.
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i have a pair i'm aiming for sanguine/sanguine/radioactive, with a range between hunter and moss for the tert. pretty big so ik im gambling here, but what's driving me absolutely insane is that ive had multiple. multiple. hatches with moss and camo as their terts

a 1/20 chance and ive gotten two moss hatchlings and two camo hatchlings. from separate nests. :grip:
i have a pair i'm aiming for sanguine/sanguine/radioactive, with a range between hunter and moss for the tert. pretty big so ik im gambling here, but what's driving me absolutely insane is that ive had multiple. multiple. hatches with moss and camo as their terts

a 1/20 chance and ive gotten two moss hatchlings and two camo hatchlings. from separate nests. :grip:
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Let’s see. I have two pairs that are koi/opal. Between them both, they have had fifteen hatchlings. Only ONE of these fifteen hatchlings has gotten opal. It makes me look at them and be like…is opal really a gem gene?

I’ve also had fun incidents where the pair that had a two color range (total! Primary secondary AND tertiary) refuses to succeed and the pair that has a five or even fourteen color range succeeds with a wegg or twegg. Wat.
Let’s see. I have two pairs that are koi/opal. Between them both, they have had fifteen hatchlings. Only ONE of these fifteen hatchlings has gotten opal. It makes me look at them and be like…is opal really a gem gene?

I’ve also had fun incidents where the pair that had a two color range (total! Primary secondary AND tertiary) refuses to succeed and the pair that has a five or even fourteen color range succeeds with a wegg or twegg. Wat.
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