Suggestions

tuberose said it well.

there's definitely a way to DO an art update.

but yeah, the hurdle here is that keeping the two 'forms' side by side is literally impossible. when doing an art update it has to be all or nothing. maintaining the two art versions side by side would just double the work for those breeds, forever, and people would absolutely not be satisfied if one version or the other A) didn't have all the existing/old apparel or B) didn't have new apparel going forward.

i would love new tundras, snappers, spirals. that sentiment is not shared with everyone--or even, i think, an overwhelming majority. by and large the people who have no strong feelings about the art itself one way or another are more likely to be put off by a change to the dragons they've gotten attached to, just on principle. 'i have had snowflake here for 6 years, and now snowflake does not look like snowflake anymore even though her shading is nicer.'

it also sets kind of an unfortunate precedent.

say they did redo some of the 'worse' offenders. modernized them so that they'd be on par with aberrations and obelisks.

now the generation that came after those are the ones that look dated in comparison, because those are now the oldest art. the difference between a SD and an ab isn't as stark as the difference between a tundra and an ob but it would be more obvious. you don't want to get in a cycle where every breed needs to be the 'best' version of itself when it takes 6+ years to redo the art for any one in the first place. you will literally never catch up.

Yeah, no thanks. This would be as much work as drawing an equal amount of new modern breeds. I'd much rather have those than new art of breeds I already love the art of. Ancients were created to combat how long it takes to create new breeds, and you want to make that even longer? We wouldn't have a new modern in like 30 years ;-;

[quote name="Almedha" date="2022-04-22 14:52:36" ] [quote name="Tuberose" date="2022-04-22 14:04:51" ] [quote name="Almedha" date="2022-04-22 13:27:47" ] [quote name="AceToTheAce" date="2022-04-22 13:19:29" ] How about this, they slowly work on redraws for the starter dragons (the most outdated, especially Tundras...), and release a temporary scroll once all colors/genes are done to change a dragon into it. It would be a pseudo-ancient for some time, not being able to wear clothes, until some time later. No new genes or apparel would be released for the older version of the breed, but once all apparel is done for the newer version all dragons of the breed will be changed into the newer one for free and possibly without choice. [/quote] Just to put it out there, I would absolutely detest having to change to the new artwork of a breed without choice (especially for Tundras, actually). When it comes to updating breed (or any, for that matter) artwork, this is the worst possible implementation. [/quote] For better or worse, the fact that this sentiment exists (and is, regardless of whether it's the majority, probably pretty common) is I think the main thing preventing an art update. I think the 50/50 hatchrate proposal is actually not very practical at all; if something like this were implemented, [b]it would have to be all at once, ripping off a bandaid-style[/b]; otherwise, yes, you might as well simply introduce a new breed. (Also, from a coding implementation perspective, this 50/50 suggestion [i]would[/i] have to be a lot like a new breed, only with much wonkier if/then hatchling generation.) Perhaps someday we might see subtle tweaks to lineart that still maintain the same outer silhouette and limb positioning. Anything beyond that would be a borderline-obscene level of work (akin to launching the entire site all over again, in terms of art assets anyway) for the "reward" of users rioting in FR's streets because their dragons were changed without their consent. [/quote] I guess I don't understand what it is that people like about new breeds? It's obviously not the lore, because a very large portion of people ignore that entirely anyway (I can literally only think of two people who actually use breed lore). If it's not the art, which is what an updated art would be (presuming the site wouldn't be gain a net 0 on updated breed artwork by getting rid of the old one--because, yeah, obviously if you're going to lose two poses just to gain two poses, then the idea is comprehensively dumb because no one wants to gain what is essentially nothing in the long run for years of work), then that pretty much leaves just the new name that we're waiting for. All that to say, that's obviously not true. The thing users want to see with a "new breed" is actually [i]new art[/i]. A new breed obviously doesn't come at the expense of old art, which we wouldn't want anyway (as shown plenty of times with apparel revamps). Obelisks enjoy a broad appeal despite many similarities to existing breeds because their poses are new. A new pose for an old breed is, pragmatically speaking, a new breed. All a new breed is, besides new art, is stuff most people don't really care about anyway. Which is to say, it doesn't seem like wasted effort to me. Even the 50/50 hatchling thing, though indeed it would be extra work, would be another fun thing for breeding provided it was easy/cheap enough to switch between the artworks of the same breed. [/quote] For me it is a combination of liking the old art already, and wanting something completely different. I don't want just *new* art. I want something that stands on its own, like aberrations, rather than mirror 2.0 (and it would literally be mirror 2.0 if it is meant to be a replacement) Sure, I like the old breeds, but I have dragons that just don't look good as those breeds, or I just want something *new*. It is also pretty much the same as apparel revamps. I would rather have new apparel or new colors of existing apparel rather than having them completely redraw the apparel. I also feel that something like this, where it isn't a complete revamp, but having different poses for existing breeds would lead to issues where every single new breed now has to have alternate poses. I can pretty much guarantee that if 'old' breeds suddenly got two or three alternate line arts (if they were significantly different to existing lineart and if we had the hatchling art), then there would be numerous suggestions about giving the new breeds alternate art as well. All of which will significantly slow down ALL breed art releases, not just brand new breeds. However, it is also very unlikely that a revamp would actually coexist side by side with the old breed art. I believe people have been asking for old and new apparel art to exist side by side since they first started revamps, and it would be WAY easier to grant that than something like this (since they would just have to put the items in as 'new' and leave the old). So, in all likelyhood, revamps to old breed art would just replace the old breed art. Which means that if you liked the old art, but hate how the new stuff looks you are now out of luck. As an example: the iridescent issue where the older iri can look vastly different from the new iri. I love the old iri, and if they ever do uupdate iri, I may end up losing it to the newer iri, which I don't like nearly as much, and often won't be the same. (depending on how they update it of course). I would rather not have that happen to breed art.

[quote name="Almedha" date="2022-04-22 14:52:36" ] [quote name="Tuberose" date="2022-04-22 14:04:51" ] [quote name="Almedha" date="2022-04-22 13:27:47" ] Just to put it out there, I would absolutely detest having to change to the new artwork of a breed without choice (especially for Tundras, actually). When it comes to updating breed (or any, for that matter) artwork, this is the worst possible implementation. [/quote] For better or worse, the fact that this sentiment exists (and is, regardless of whether it's the majority, probably pretty common) is I think the main thing preventing an art update. I think the 50/50 hatchrate proposal is actually not very practical at all; if something like this were implemented, [b]it would have to be all at once, ripping off a bandaid-style[/b]; otherwise, yes, you might as well simply introduce a new breed. (Also, from a coding implementation perspective, this 50/50 suggestion [i]would[/i] have to be a lot like a new breed, only with much wonkier if/then hatchling generation.) Perhaps someday we might see subtle tweaks to lineart that still maintain the same outer silhouette and limb positioning. Anything beyond that would be a borderline-obscene level of work (akin to launching the entire site all over again, in terms of art assets anyway) for the "reward" of users rioting in FR's streets because their dragons were changed without their consent. [/quote] I guess I don't understand what it is that people like about new breeds? It's obviously not the lore, because a very large portion of people ignore that entirely anyway (I can literally only think of two people who actually use breed lore). If it's not the art, which is what an updated art would be (presuming the site wouldn't be gain a net 0 on updated breed artwork by getting rid of the old one--because, yeah, obviously if you're going to lose two poses just to gain two poses, then the idea is comprehensively dumb because no one wants to gain what is essentially nothing in the long run for years of work), then that pretty much leaves just the new name that we're waiting for. All that to say, that's obviously not true. The thing users want to see with a "new breed" is actually [i]new art[/i]. A new breed obviously doesn't come at the expense of old art, which we wouldn't want anyway (as shown plenty of times with apparel revamps). Obelisks enjoy a broad appeal despite many similarities to existing breeds because their poses are new. A new pose for an old breed is, pragmatically speaking, a new breed. All a new breed is, besides new art, is stuff most people don't really care about anyway. Which is to say, it doesn't seem like wasted effort to me. Even the 50/50 hatchling thing, though indeed it would be extra work, would be another fun thing for breeding provided it was easy/cheap enough to switch between the artworks of the same breed. [/quote] [font=helvetica]"A 50/50 hatchrate where I can easily change which version of the art I use" [i]is[/i] a new breed, just by another name; based on your second paragraph above, I think you and I are pretty much on the same page here in terms of what makes for a "new breed"-level of work! So I think where we disagree is whether or not this is a good/fun implementation of that level of work. Because I see this as [i]so[/i] similar to introducing a new breed, you hit an issue of not only the workload of creating like... 4+ new breeds at once, [i]but also redrawing 4+ breeds' worth of apparel at once[/i]. Thus, OP's proposal pretty much hinges on the idea that you [i]couldn't[/i] swap between "vintage" and updated poses—because the idea would be that "vintage" breed poses were no longer supported by the site in terms of item releases or festival skin eligibility. That way, even though in the short term it would be a ton of work, the long-term demands for apparel art would at least remain the same. If people could continue to make the old poses, that would entirely undo the proposed advantage. This brings us around to square one of what I said: If the presumed goal of an "art update" (whether or not you think it's necessary; I personally can see the [i]appeal[/i] but don't think it's necessary) is to ~enhance~ existing breeds with more detailed lines and shading [i]without[/i] creating a larger number of [i]total poses[/i] that need to be accommodated with apparel art, you've got to take the rip off the bandaid approach, without a middle ground like this suggestion.

[quote name="Almedha" date="2022-04-22 14:52:36" ] I guess I don't understand what it is that people like about new breeds? It's obviously not the lore, because a very large portion of people ignore that entirely anyway (I can literally only think of two people who actually use breed lore). If it's not the art, which is what an updated art would be (presuming the site wouldn't be gain a net 0 on updated breed artwork by getting rid of the old one--because, yeah, obviously if you're going to lose two poses just to gain two poses, then the idea is comprehensively dumb because no one wants to gain what is essentially nothing in the long run for years of work), then that pretty much leaves just the new name that we're waiting for. All that to say, that's obviously not true. The thing users want to see with a "new breed" is actually [i]new art[/i]. A new breed obviously doesn't come at the expense of old art, which we wouldn't want anyway (as shown plenty of times with apparel revamps). Obelisks enjoy a broad appeal despite many similarities to existing breeds because their poses are new. A new pose for an old breed is, pragmatically speaking, a new breed. All a new breed is, besides new art, is stuff most people don't really care about anyway. Which is to say, it doesn't seem like wasted effort to me. Even the 50/50 hatchling thing, though indeed it would be extra work, would be another fun thing for breeding provided it was easy/cheap enough to switch between the artworks of the same breed. [/quote] This seems like a very reductive take. Not just cause Players Who Care About Lore on some level do exist (When Obelix Dragons were first released I literally refreshed the Encyclopedia every day waiting for their entry to appear), even if we might not be in the majority, you can't TOTALLY disregard the way we engage with the site. But saying a new artwork for an old Breed is just the same as a New Breed is ignoring: A. The Breed's functionality in breeding. Different Breeds have different rarities and that's an important game mechanic. For folks who mainly buy Dragons for personal breeding projects, sometimes the value of a Dragon *is* in what sort of rarity it has compared to it's mate. There's a reason why a lot of people keep wishing for not just a new Breed, but for a new [b]Gem Breed[/b]. B. The difference between Breeds in Flight Rising is MUCH larger than anything that can be done with just reworked artwork for a pre-existing Breed. Like, you brought Obelixs as an example for a Breed with "many similarities to existing breeds", but no existing breed had the Obelix's leonine features or their most distinctive feature - their beautiful curls. The Obelix Dragons are appealing because they had brand new physical features and characteristics that aren't 100% covered by any other previous breed, not because they had different poses. Even the most similar FR Breeds are far too physically distinctive for their differences to be covered by an "Art Revamp". The most an Art Revamp can do is make the art more detailed and better-shaded, maybe improve the anatomy or a different pose - but they're not gonna give the Breed whole new features or radically different porportions or anything else people are looking for in a BREED.

[quote name="Tuberose" date="2022-04-22 15:53:50" ] [quote name="Almedha" date="2022-04-22 14:52:36" ] [quote name="Tuberose" date="2022-04-22 14:04:51" ] [quote name="Almedha" date="2022-04-22 13:27:47" ] Just to put it out there, I would absolutely detest having to change to the new artwork of a breed without choice (especially for Tundras, actually). When it comes to updating breed (or any, for that matter) artwork, this is the worst possible implementation. [/quote] For better or worse, the fact that this sentiment exists (and is, regardless of whether it's the majority, probably pretty common) is I think the main thing preventing an art update. I think the 50/50 hatchrate proposal is actually not very practical at all; if something like this were implemented, [b]it would have to be all at once, ripping off a bandaid-style[/b]; otherwise, yes, you might as well simply introduce a new breed. (Also, from a coding implementation perspective, this 50/50 suggestion [i]would[/i] have to be a lot like a new breed, only with much wonkier if/then hatchling generation.) Perhaps someday we might see subtle tweaks to lineart that still maintain the same outer silhouette and limb positioning. Anything beyond that would be a borderline-obscene level of work (akin to launching the entire site all over again, in terms of art assets anyway) for the "reward" of users rioting in FR's streets because their dragons were changed without their consent. [/quote] I guess I don't understand what it is that people like about new breeds? It's obviously not the lore, because a very large portion of people ignore that entirely anyway (I can literally only think of two people who actually use breed lore). If it's not the art, which is what an updated art would be (presuming the site wouldn't be gain a net 0 on updated breed artwork by getting rid of the old one--because, yeah, obviously if you're going to lose two poses just to gain two poses, then the idea is comprehensively dumb because no one wants to gain what is essentially nothing in the long run for years of work), then that pretty much leaves just the new name that we're waiting for. All that to say, that's obviously not true. The thing users want to see with a "new breed" is actually [i]new art[/i]. A new breed obviously doesn't come at the expense of old art, which we wouldn't want anyway (as shown plenty of times with apparel revamps). Obelisks enjoy a broad appeal despite many similarities to existing breeds because their poses are new. A new pose for an old breed is, pragmatically speaking, a new breed. All a new breed is, besides new art, is stuff most people don't really care about anyway. Which is to say, it doesn't seem like wasted effort to me. Even the 50/50 hatchling thing, though indeed it would be extra work, would be another fun thing for breeding provided it was easy/cheap enough to switch between the artworks of the same breed. [/quote] "A 50/50 hatchrate where I can easily change which version of the art I use" [i]is[/i] a new breed, just by another name; based on your second paragraph above, I think you and I are pretty much on the same page here in terms of what makes for a "new breed"-level of work! So I think where we disagree is whether or not this is a good/fun implementation of that level of work. Because I see this as [i]so[/i] similar to introducing a new breed, you hit an issue of not only the workload of creating like... 4+ new breeds at once, [i]but also redrawing 4+ breeds' worth of apparel at once[/i]. Thus, OP's proposal pretty much hinges on the idea that you [i]couldn't[/i] swap between "vintage" and updated poses—because the idea would be that "vintage" breed poses were no longer supported by the site in terms of item releases or festival skin eligibility. That way, even though in the short term it would be a ton of work, the long-term demands for apparel art would at least remain the same. If people could continue to make the old poses, that would entirely undo the proposed advantage. This brings us around to square one of what I said: If the presumed goal of an "art update" (whether or not you think it's necessary; I personally can see the [i]appeal[/i] but don't think it's necessary) is to ~enhance~ existing breeds with more detailed lines and shading [i]without[/i] creating a larger number of [i]total poses[/i] that need to be accommodated with apparel art, you've got to take the rip off the bandaid approach, without a middle ground like this suggestion. [/quote] Yeah, almost certainly, we're on the same page on how much work this is. I don't see where OP says that the old art wouldn't get new apparel or fest skins or whatever, though. "We get new not ten-year-old art to make even MORE skins and apparel for" implies that we now have double the Tundras (that is, [i]more[/i], not the same amount, which is what would happen if we did stop supporting the old art) to have skins [i]and[/i] apparel for. Just that the 50/50 hatchrate would exist forever "and that's it!" So, really, in every way, exactly yes. A new breed in everything but literally the name. Old and new Tundras now exist forever at a 50/50 hatchrate for every Tundra hatched, which gives us [i]more[/i] skins and apparel the exact same way a breed would. That's why it [i]doesn't[/i] hinge on not supporting the updated Tundra or whatever--because we haven't phased out Tundras because Obelisks exist now. That would make it not like a breed release at all. So, yeah, we don't agree on what would be a worthwhile use of time/resources. I don't think it's really any different, except now all the users that accuse the staff of just making a "Tundra 2.0" or whatever would just get the answer that, "yes, that's exactly what this is, good observation." Which, honestly, there are apparently limited options available to the staff when it comes to dragons they're willing and capable of making. I suppose it's really possible one day they could bust out of the anniversary cake with something that looks absolutely nothing like a dragon we already have, but, for me personally, with every new breed release it seems less and less likely. They do, though, seem pretty dang good at creative riffs on what they already have designed. Heck, making this a long-term (like... really long-term) project might manage to take some of the pressure off so they can make a really visually neat new dragon someday.

While I can see where you're coming from, the off-sized from M PC and WC wings have always bothered me. I would also suggest you take a look at the last time we got apparel updates. From say, the steampunk and roundhorn apparels. The steampunk set in particular is pretty much the clothing version of what you're describing, it was all "tidied up", but in a way that while it functionally has the same parts as before, it doesn't feel the way it was before. Much of it I can't use anymore because of how subtly but deeply different it is.

What you're suggesting is that but on the level of my dragons. No support.

There isn't enough to gain for this change -either too big and alienating or so small as to go, "why bother?" and again, that's coming from someone who would want updated Tun art, we're a decade into this, so the Tun art, dopey lovable muppets that they are, are going to stay that way forever.

I would be in favor of more examples of the breeds, outside of our "generic" portraits. I've always been a supporter of the suggestions for extra art for the Encyclopedia. Something to perhaps show the variation of the breeds in that context, then we can design and customize our dragons through buying artwork on our own. Like we already do. But I honestly can't get behind your suggestion, it doesn't have enough meat on it, but at the same time, is pretty keen to screw up what is already in place.