Flight Rising Discussion

[quote name="Toska" date="2021-05-06 21:00:56" ] [quote name="SparkyLurkdragon" date="2021-05-06 20:31:09" ] [quote name="SparkyLurkdragon" date="2021-05-06 19:04:20" ] My litmus test: do you sound like someone annoyed about proposals for college being cheaper/free because you had to pay out the nose for it? Congrats, you're coming across as elitist to me. [/quote] I agree, it's a wildly different context, like I said. But for me it often comes across as stemming from the same kind of "I got mine in this particular way and getting it some other way invalidates that somehow" mindset. (Or, more succinctly: "Got mine, screw you.") [/quote] Seems to me like being an elitist means you want your items or dragons to remain the same value over time. Of course it is possible that fr is moving towards a more charitable future for all. People have been asking for expensive things like imp scrolls and fest items to be more obtainable for a very long time now. So, following this definition, if imp scrolls ever get re-introduced (unlikely, but you never know), anyone objecting or being upset would be elitists There's a suggestion thread [url=https://www1.flightrising.com/forums/sug/3005065/1]here[/url] [/quote] [font=times new roman] How is disapproving on imp scrolls... elitist? It was an item said to be KS-Exclusive. Releasing them would just be spitting in the faces of those who were here during FR’s beginning. Saying that’s elitist is kind of ironic.

[quote name="BlueJaysFeather" date="2021-05-06 20:53:31" ] would it be fair to say it like not elitist: "dang wish that had been a thing when i was in school" "it sucks that this isn't a(n immediately recognizable) symbol of accomplishment anymore" elitist: "back when i was a student we sold our souls to the college and liked it, don't complain when you have it so easy" "this was my symbol of accomplishment, and i am OWED recognition for it" i don't quite know how to connect it back, but i started having a lot more fun in games when i let go of that idea that "it's only valid if you play it on double plus hard" and started making save points all over the place and adjusting difficulty settings whenever i wasn't having fun, and i've 100% seen that turn into an accessibility thing on both sides- "why do you care when you (can) only play on EASY" as well as "doubleplus hard mode MUST be accessible to people with xyz relevant disability" related to the student-ness is that it's finals for me rn so i'm not super sure i've interpreted your point correctly [/quote] Your examples are not at all reciprocal. Or related to being elitist. Because you can come from a position of thinking that something [i]should[/i] be and not be elitist. It's more like... not elitist: "it's important to find schools at a reasonable price without needing to resort to making all college free" "it's an important aspect of a game to have difficult-to-achieve rewards that can appeal to different segments of the userbase" Which has only serves to point out to me that we have two opposite ends of a spectrum here as pointed out earlier. One side thinks the other is entitled, and the other thinks they're elitist. It seems like there is a middle ground.

[quote name="SparkyLurkdragon" date="2021-05-06 19:04:20" ] My litmus test: do you sound like someone annoyed about proposals for college being cheaper/free because you had to pay out the nose for it? Congrats, you're coming across as elitist to me. I realise that dragon eyeballs and market forces around education are wildly different contexts, but the overall mindset rings the same to me. To extend the metaphor further, I totally understand being bitter or annoyed at the universe that you had to work really hard for something that's become easier over time. I don't understand taking that out on whoever didn't have to work as hard. (And in all likelihood they actually did have to work very hard, just using a different skillset / playing with a different set of variables.) I guess the other aspect of coming across as elitist is declaring that you have The One True Playstyle and that other players having a way to cut the knot somehow invalidates it. Like, I don't look down on whoever bought the second Frost Delver drop I got, even though I prefer to grind for Coli fams or win them in raffles. Different, and complimentary, playstyles: us Coli grinders probably wouldn't find it as rewarding if there weren't players who prefer to cut the knot and buy Coli stuff from us, and people who find the Coli mindnumbing would be missing out on a lot of site features if the Coli grinders didn't have the option of selling their stuff. There is nothing stopping someone from making a game out of trying to breed for a Primal now. There is nothing less impressive about hatched special eyes now that they can be applied, just like there is nothing less impressive about getting a Gem gene against Basic despite Gem genes being applicable to existing dragons. Defeating the RNG is still an achievement. It's like getting mad at a platformer for adding an easy mode. Beating Ultra Hard Heart Attack Death Mode is still an achievement, and other players enjoying different aspects of the game besides that mode doesn't invalidate it. [/quote] College isn't a collectible. College is an education service, and if you want to go into certain careers a bare necessity. Under no circumstances would I ever want to take that opportunity away from someone, and I highly doubt anyone else who enjoyed collecting primals would either. Primals were collectibles to many people like antiques and limited items are irl. Unless I am missing something, and if I am I truly apologize, according to your post an antique or other item collector who cared about appraisals and certifications showing that their item was a version of an item that came out in a certain time period or was produced in a certain manner (there by making it the antique/collectible version of the item) is an elitist. This makes no sense to me as appraisals and certifications are extremely important to that hobby and generally accepted by the entire community.

I'd say the recent "I spent thousands of gems on scatterscroll gambling so these new vials ruined my life" come off as a bit...if not elitist, sad?

If I spend thousands on something (like my health care), and one day (I hope) health care is free to all - sure, it sucks I paid, but I'm glad others don't have to go through the same grief.


Or, for a more game-related suggestion, lets take the strategy game Crusader Kings 2. I bought the game and a month later the devs made it completely free. I could have been mad, and some players were, but instead I was kinda happy. I could get my friends into a fun game, and they wouldn't have to pay as much (until they got into the DLC). Same with sales - terraria once went on sale for $1(it was a good 6 years ago I think), which is when I bought it. People who bought it for full price weren't mad at the sale, they used it to drag their friends in unwillingly and willingly.

The eyes aren't completely free. They cost money, and yes, some people feel they lost some profit or money, but...the primal vials weren't just handed out for no money. Heck, the primal vials being available could be one of the features you use to get one of your friends with a certain aesthetic to join the game! You can show them some scries with crazy eyes, and they may just decide to play. Or new players turned off by the difficulty of getting them may finally be able to achieve their dreams.

I lost a profit in the scatters I had left as well. I never used them because gambling on a percentage of a percentage felt like a losing game, but I could have sold them for a pretty penny to buy a coatl or two scroll if I wanted (pre-vials). I'm still not mad. I can finally get the dragons I've been working years for. It's that game that's been sitting in my wishlist for 5 years waiting for a sale, that I'm finally buying.

[quote name="Natron" date="2021-05-06 18:34:40" ] As a G1 collector and retired item collector, etc etc, I 100% agree that elitism is bad. But! don't confuse elitism with completely neutral, ethical behaviour. Being a G1 collector =/= elitism Being a special eye collector =/= elitism Being a collector of literally anything expensive =/= elitism Being content with your achievements =/= elitism Considering everything else worthless, basing value of others and their property on financial value or achievements, and basing your existence's worth on how people perceive you as a player = elitism [/quote] As a somewhat new G1 collector, I think this is a super important point, and it really sums up my opinions on this matter. There is absolutely nothing inherently wrong with liking rare things, or in this case G1s or special eyes. I personally like G1s because I love the challenge. I love that the dragon isn't really connected to anything- its just inherently lucky and special (to me) for existing in the state that its in. Maybe I'm crazy, but the RNG is really fun for me. There's nothing wrong with having rare dragons and being proud of said rare dragons, because they're yours and you worked hard for them. It turns toxic when you then flip this against other people and say that they are somehow worth less because their dragons aren't as "rare" or "good" by whatever standards you use. Everyone is different! One person may like G1s, someone else might like fodder saves, and someone else might just collect goofy male snappers and ridgies. No one is better than anyone else for their preferences, which is really all that it comes down to. It really saddens me seeing G1 collectors being pegged as elitist and entitled just because of their preferences and different gameplay.

[quote name="Realcottoncat" date="2021-05-06 21:35:19" ] [quote name="SparkyLurkdragon" date="2021-05-06 19:04:20" ] My litmus test: do you sound like someone annoyed about proposals for college being cheaper/free because you had to pay out the nose for it? Congrats, you're coming across as elitist to me. I realise that dragon eyeballs and market forces around education are wildly different contexts, but the overall mindset rings the same to me. To extend the metaphor further, I totally understand being bitter or annoyed at the universe that you had to work really hard for something that's become easier over time. I don't understand taking that out on whoever didn't have to work as hard. (And in all likelihood they actually did have to work very hard, just using a different skillset / playing with a different set of variables.) I guess the other aspect of coming across as elitist is declaring that you have The One True Playstyle and that other players having a way to cut the knot somehow invalidates it. Like, I don't look down on whoever bought the second Frost Delver drop I got, even though I prefer to grind for Coli fams or win them in raffles. Different, and complimentary, playstyles: us Coli grinders probably wouldn't find it as rewarding if there weren't players who prefer to cut the knot and buy Coli stuff from us, and people who find the Coli mindnumbing would be missing out on a lot of site features if the Coli grinders didn't have the option of selling their stuff. There is nothing stopping someone from making a game out of trying to breed for a Primal now. There is nothing less impressive about hatched special eyes now that they can be applied, just like there is nothing less impressive about getting a Gem gene against Basic despite Gem genes being applicable to existing dragons. Defeating the RNG is still an achievement. It's like getting mad at a platformer for adding an easy mode. Beating Ultra Hard Heart Attack Death Mode is still an achievement, and other players enjoying different aspects of the game besides that mode doesn't invalidate it. [/quote] College isn't a collectible. College is an education service, and if you want to go into certain careers a bare necessity. Under no circumstances would I ever want to take that opportunity away from someone, and I highly doubt anyone else who enjoyed collecting primals would either. Primals were collectibles to many people like antiques and limited items are irl. Unless I am missing something, and if I am I truly apologize, according to your post an antique or other item collector who cared about appraisals and certifications showing that their item was a version of an item that came out in a certain time period or was produced in a certain manner (there by making it the antique/collectible version of the item) is an elitist. This makes no sense to me as appraisals and certifications are extremely important to that hobby and generally accepted by the entire community. [/quote] I don't think you missed their point I think their comparison was just totally absurd. I'm not sure why we have to drag actual life changeing scenarios like getting to go to college into this conversation at all. Your antique comparison is apt in this situation as is comparisons to things like natural pearls vs farms. By the definition of some of the people in this thread anyone who appreciate the rarity of any scarce commodity is an "elitist" Even in my irl hobby of collecting ball joint dolls we get people like that who think that anyone who doesn't allow them to post their counterfeit dolls in outr forumn is an "elitist'. I'm with others who say that nobody knows what words mean anymore.

Being a g1 collector is not elitism.
Being a special eye collector is not elitism.
Collecting rare/retired items is not elitism.
(I do all three of these things.)

However, there is elitism on this site. I have run into an attitude both on Discord (when I used to use Discord; I no longer do so) and on the forums where people act like not following a certain aesthetic (or not having an aesthetic at all) is bad (as opposed to "not my thing, but you do you") and like it's OK to have a problem with someone just for existing because they like XYZs and breed their g1s and overuse Marva eyes and like snoots and whatever.

It's absolutely not wrong to have an aesthetic preference, and it's absolutely not wrong to value achievements, like having hatched a primal pre-vials. It is however wrong to make fun of people about their XYZs or their vialed dragons or their this or their that. Not everyone who is against the eye update is like this, but unfortunately it's been the toxicity from a few who give the appearance that the "anti-eyes-for-everyone fandom" is Like That.

Like Almedha said, one side thinks the other is entitled, and one side thinks the other is elitist. There is a middle ground between the two attitudes, and while I will readily admit that I erred on the side of "elitist!" when I saw the negativity to the update, I calmed down once I read through the forums and saw more perspectives on the matter and I have moved to the middle ground. I still believe the eye update is a good thing for the community but I do also sympathize with people who feel like they lost something because of this, whether it be motivation to play the game "hard mode" with eyes, or value on g1s or scattervials, or like the eyes they hatched pre-update aren't as special. I hear you; you have a right to be disappointed.

[quote name="Saru" date="2021-05-06 18:17:57" ] [quote name="Drakessis" date="2021-05-06 16:23:49" ] I feel like people are, outside of specific attempts to define the term in threads like this, conflating elitism with valuing dragons financially. There's been no shortage of people claiming in the past that G1s or doubles/triples are a waste of money, or that exalting dragons is wrong, or that you like your dragons for the "wrong reason" if you aren't intensely sentimental about them, or that wanting dragon likes is selfish. Are these occasionally in response to other people's harsh attitudes? Yes. Have they ever widely been referred to as elitists? Not that I can recall. I think everyone accepts that trying to declare your playstyle as the "right" one is wrong and insulting to others. But I also think that the term "elitism" itself is sort of just... FR's word of the week. A few users probably used it initially, and now many more people are, because it's a concise way of summarizing (and, in some cases, insulting) the arguments they see in others. But as a result, people are using "elitism" to mean anything from "collects G1s" to "bought Scattersights" to "values rarity." Some people are probably being, by definition, elitist- but people who aren't and have other arguments that happen to land them on the same "side" are being lumped in with them. Which tends to be how strawmen are born, imo. (I think the same thing is happening with the term "accessible" as per this update, though that's slightly different. New eye types are technically more accessible, but people are conflating that type of accessibility with things like accessibility for disabled people, which doesn't help anyone's arguments because of how incredibly unequal and unrelated the two issues are. And because of the actual, withstanding issues FR has with disability accommodations, none of which seem particularly related to the eye update beyond things like phobias, and which weren't "fixed" by this update in any capacity.) [/quote] agree 100% with all of this, especially the middle paragraph! i've been thinking the same thing while reading these threads for the past few days, but never could quite put into it words. [/quote] This!! So many people are throwing around the words "elitism" and "accessibility" and it's grinding my gears in a :( way. They're being used to shut down arguments or try to "justify" why one playstyle is inherently more "right" instead of being used in a mindful/conscientious way. (Not really this thread specifically, I mean the other countless ones that have popped up.)

[quote name="kyat" date="2021-05-06 23:15:34" ] [quote name="Saru" date="2021-05-06 18:17:57" ] [quote name="Drakessis" date="2021-05-06 16:23:49" ] I feel like people are, outside of specific attempts to define the term in threads like this, conflating elitism with valuing dragons financially. There's been no shortage of people claiming in the past that G1s or doubles/triples are a waste of money, or that exalting dragons is wrong, or that you like your dragons for the "wrong reason" if you aren't intensely sentimental about them, or that wanting dragon likes is selfish. Are these occasionally in response to other people's harsh attitudes? Yes. Have they ever widely been referred to as elitists? Not that I can recall. I think everyone accepts that trying to declare your playstyle as the "right" one is wrong and insulting to others. But I also think that the term "elitism" itself is sort of just... FR's word of the week. A few users probably used it initially, and now many more people are, because it's a concise way of summarizing (and, in some cases, insulting) the arguments they see in others. But as a result, people are using "elitism" to mean anything from "collects G1s" to "bought Scattersights" to "values rarity." Some people are probably being, by definition, elitist- but people who aren't and have other arguments that happen to land them on the same "side" are being lumped in with them. Which tends to be how strawmen are born, imo. (I think the same thing is happening with the term "accessible" as per this update, though that's slightly different. New eye types are technically more accessible, but people are conflating that type of accessibility with things like accessibility for disabled people, which doesn't help anyone's arguments because of how incredibly unequal and unrelated the two issues are. And because of the actual, withstanding issues FR has with disability accommodations, none of which seem particularly related to the eye update beyond things like phobias, and which weren't "fixed" by this update in any capacity.) [/quote] agree 100% with all of this, especially the middle paragraph! i've been thinking the same thing while reading these threads for the past few days, but never could quite put into it words. [/quote] This!! So many people are throwing around the words "elitism" and "accessibility" and it's grinding my gears in a :( way. They're being used to shut down arguments or try to "justify" why one playstyle is inherently more "right" instead of being used in a mindful/conscientious way. (Not really this thread specifically, I mean the other countless ones that have popped up.) [/quote] The people using elitism and accessibility as a means to shut down arguments are too focused on justifying their stance to realize that it's possible to understand what the other side is upset about while still being happy about the update. Like, I'm really glad to have the eye update- it's what it should have been three years ago. But... I fully understand why people are upset. I don't think it's elitist to be upset and to disagree with me on it. Elitists are the type of people who will rub their achievements in your face in a "Haha look I have this and you don't!" way. Does the old eye system leave more room for elitism? Sure. But not everyone who is upset at the change is elitist by default. People wanting accessibility weren't saying "We want everything free!" - they just wanted stuff like primal eyes reasonably possible for their old dragons- not an extremely small chance on an increasingly rare and expensive retired item. I think most people would have been okay with a way to change eye types that was time consuming and expensive but not tied to a retired RNG item. Both viewpoints on the eye stuff are valid. People can be happy about the update and still be sympathetic to those who spent a fortune trying to get rare eyes. People can be upset about the update but still be happy for those who can finally reasonably achieve their dream dragons or whatever.

[quote name="Sorel" date="2021-05-06 22:21:49" ] [quote name="Realcottoncat" date="2021-05-06 21:35:19" ] [quote name="SparkyLurkdragon" date="2021-05-06 19:04:20" ] My litmus test: do you sound like someone annoyed about proposals for college being cheaper/free because you had to pay out the nose for it? Congrats, you're coming across as elitist to me. I realise that dragon eyeballs and market forces around education are wildly different contexts, but the overall mindset rings the same to me. To extend the metaphor further, I totally understand being bitter or annoyed at the universe that you had to work really hard for something that's become easier over time. I don't understand taking that out on whoever didn't have to work as hard. (And in all likelihood they actually did have to work very hard, just using a different skillset / playing with a different set of variables.) I guess the other aspect of coming across as elitist is declaring that you have The One True Playstyle and that other players having a way to cut the knot somehow invalidates it. Like, I don't look down on whoever bought the second Frost Delver drop I got, even though I prefer to grind for Coli fams or win them in raffles. Different, and complimentary, playstyles: us Coli grinders probably wouldn't find it as rewarding if there weren't players who prefer to cut the knot and buy Coli stuff from us, and people who find the Coli mindnumbing would be missing out on a lot of site features if the Coli grinders didn't have the option of selling their stuff. There is nothing stopping someone from making a game out of trying to breed for a Primal now. There is nothing less impressive about hatched special eyes now that they can be applied, just like there is nothing less impressive about getting a Gem gene against Basic despite Gem genes being applicable to existing dragons. Defeating the RNG is still an achievement. It's like getting mad at a platformer for adding an easy mode. Beating Ultra Hard Heart Attack Death Mode is still an achievement, and other players enjoying different aspects of the game besides that mode doesn't invalidate it. [/quote] College isn't a collectible. College is an education service, and if you want to go into certain careers a bare necessity. Under no circumstances would I ever want to take that opportunity away from someone, and I highly doubt anyone else who enjoyed collecting primals would either. Primals were collectibles to many people like antiques and limited items are irl. Unless I am missing something, and if I am I truly apologize, according to your post an antique or other item collector who cared about appraisals and certifications showing that their item was a version of an item that came out in a certain time period or was produced in a certain manner (there by making it the antique/collectible version of the item) is an elitist. This makes no sense to me as appraisals and certifications are extremely important to that hobby and generally accepted by the entire community. [/quote] I don't think you missed their point I think their comparison was just totally absurd. I'm not sure why we have to drag actual life changeing scenarios like getting to go to college into this conversation at all. Your antique comparison is apt in this situation as is comparisons to things like natural pearls vs farms. By the definition of some of the people in this thread anyone who appreciate the rarity of any scarce commodity is an "elitist" Even in my irl hobby of collecting ball joint dolls we get people like that who think that anyone who doesn't allow them to post their counterfeit dolls in outr forumn is an "elitist'. I'm with others who say that nobody knows what words mean anymore. [/quote] I think I would classify that as being elitist, though? Because it's straight up not allowed to post a thing? I'm just trying to imagine someone going in Dragon Share and asking people to share their primal dragons, but adding that absolutely no vials dragons were allowed to be shared there. I guess if it's a sale forum then it's different (though I suppose when it comes to antiques or other specialized items, there is a market for reproductions). But I'd think as long as the "antique" versus the "reproduction" was labeled, then it would be fine. Because that's the difference between a counterfeit and reproduction, the intent to deceive, but it doesn't sound like that's the distinction you're making? Because banning counterfeits just sounds like you're banning hopeful-thieves, but the reaction makes it sound like all reproductions aren't allowed (I don't know if the people complaining are universally wanting to be thieves, because it doesn't seem particularly smart for thieves to draw attention to themselves this way), not just people with reproductions hoping to pass them off as original.