What is elitism or not in FR? | Flight Rising Discussion

I think its a matter of perspective on what people consider an elitist.

Some people consider themselves superior for what they have collected in this game. Like maybe they are a player that helped with kick starting the game, so they have lots of perks/unique items. Or maybe they are a big time skin artist that also spends a lot of time on the forums so they are pretty well known.
And some of these people act like they are more valuable players and their oppinion matters more. I ended up "locking horns" once with such a person, and the entitlement was unreal.

But then there is the other side. Were not that commited players don't like the more passionate players. And look at players with really amazing looking dens almost with hate. They pretty much label them as "hardcore players" and assume that person would act superior for having a more challanging play style even tho they have no proof over it.

I have a friend that calls me dragon hisper for loving exclusive items in this game lol. Meanwhile I consider her a project maniac for sometimes trying for months with 10 different pairs to get this hiper specific dragon.
Again, a matter of perspective! I say more people need to adapt the "Each to their own!" mindset in this community.

Lostdaydreams

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May 06, 2021 15:16:33

I think its a matter of perspective on what people consider an elitist.

Some people consider themselves superior for what they have collected in this game. Like maybe they are a player that helped with kick starting the game, so they have lots of perks/unique items. Or maybe they are a big time skin artist that also spends a lot of time on the forums so they are pretty well known.
And some of these people act like they are more valuable players and their oppinion matters more. I ended up "locking horns" once with such a person, and the entitlement was unreal.

But then there is the other side. Were not that commited players don't like the more passionate players. And look at players with really amazing looking dens almost with hate. They pretty much label them as "hardcore players" and assume that person would act superior for having a more challanging play style even tho they have no proof over it.

I have a friend that calls me dragon hisper for loving exclusive items in this game lol. Meanwhile I consider her a project maniac for sometimes trying for months with 10 different pairs to get this hiper specific dragon.
Again, a matter of perspective! I say more people need to adapt the "Each to their own!" mindset in this community.

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I just can't take anyone seriously that thinks colour-swapped .png files are a big deal. Don't get me wrong -- the site is a lot of fun and I immensely enjoy sinking my free time into it. But the idea that anyone would consider themselves legitimately elite over having a copy of lineart that has swapped colours on an account on a website that is ultimately temporary is wild to me.

Thystlewell

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May 06, 2021 15:25:53

I just can't take anyone seriously that thinks colour-swapped .png files are a big deal. Don't get me wrong -- the site is a lot of fun and I immensely enjoy sinking my free time into it. But the idea that anyone would consider themselves legitimately elite over having a copy of lineart that has swapped colours on an account on a website that is ultimately temporary is wild to me.

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[quote name="beautifulglitter" date="2021-05-06 14:33:07" ] The new eye update simply opens up the eye types to more playstyles- people who want to acquire them "naturally" still can, and are free to do so and have fun collecting/celebrating rare things (I'll be right there celebrating with you!), but those who might be more into playstyles that were previously completely barred by the exclusivity of the mechanic can now join in on the fun [emoji=guardian happy size=1] [/quote] So is it then Elitist to be upset when there's no longer anything that signifies that dragon's rarity? Because let's face it, there are currently absolutely no differences between a g1 hatched naturally with primal and a g1 that had primal applied to it. Are players who mourn that loss in difference thus elitists? Because they choose to be affected by that loss (which manifests itself financially in terms of dragon worth) instead of being happy that everyone can join in the fun?

Toska

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May 06, 2021 15:42:18

beautifulglitter wrote on 2021-05-06 14:33:07:

The new eye update simply opens up the eye types to more playstyles- people who want to acquire them "naturally" still can, and are free to do so and have fun collecting/celebrating rare things (I'll be right there celebrating with you!), but those who might be more into playstyles that were previously completely barred by the exclusivity of the mechanic can now join in on the fun

So is it then Elitist to be upset when there's no longer anything that signifies that dragon's rarity? Because let's face it, there are currently absolutely no differences between a g1 hatched naturally with primal and a g1 that had primal applied to it. Are players who mourn that loss in difference thus elitists? Because they choose to be affected by that loss (which manifests itself financially in terms of dragon worth) instead of being happy that everyone can join in the fun?

I'm actually not sure.

A savvy person would say, "I just like natural hatched primals better" (for example), because unless they explicitly say that natural hatched primals are better you can't tell if it's elitist or not. But they can be. And I don't know if "just liking x better" is just elitist on it's own, because there is an element of better there. You can be elitist about ugly dragons, for example. Like you might think that having ugly dragons is better and there doesn't need to be as reason: the fact you think it's better for any reason means just that. You think it's better. But is that elitist?

Because I feel like it's just thinking something is better. Or the best. But if that's true, it's not always bad. It becomes bad when you exclude other people for not being at whatever your standard is for, say, ugly dragons. Putting down other ugly dragons for not being ugly enough. Saying they aren't "real" ugly dragons of they have certain traits or something. Like Wildclaws can't be ugly because they're too popular or something.

And in a game of aesthetics, of course, you're going to be excluding things from, say, searching to buy ugly dragons based on absolutely crazy criteria that matters to no one but you. I think that's the point. So is it bad. I don't honestly know. I guess I gotta read the thread now for the spoilers.

But I do know one thing: it's easiest to tell the opposite, because someone who genuinely doesn't care would never mention either way at all.

Almedha

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May 06, 2021 16:03:50

I'm actually not sure.

A savvy person would say, "I just like natural hatched primals better" (for example), because unless they explicitly say that natural hatched primals are better you can't tell if it's elitist or not. But they can be. And I don't know if "just liking x better" is just elitist on it's own, because there is an element of better there. You can be elitist about ugly dragons, for example. Like you might think that having ugly dragons is better and there doesn't need to be as reason: the fact you think it's better for any reason means just that. You think it's better. But is that elitist?

Because I feel like it's just thinking something is better. Or the best. But if that's true, it's not always bad. It becomes bad when you exclude other people for not being at whatever your standard is for, say, ugly dragons. Putting down other ugly dragons for not being ugly enough. Saying they aren't "real" ugly dragons of they have certain traits or something. Like Wildclaws can't be ugly because they're too popular or something.

And in a game of aesthetics, of course, you're going to be excluding things from, say, searching to buy ugly dragons based on absolutely crazy criteria that matters to no one but you. I think that's the point. So is it bad. I don't honestly know. I guess I gotta read the thread now for the spoilers.

But I do know one thing: it's easiest to tell the opposite, because someone who genuinely doesn't care would never mention either way at all.

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I feel like people are, outside of specific attempts to define the term in threads like this, conflating elitism with valuing dragons financially. There's been no shortage of people claiming in the past that G1s or doubles/triples are a waste of money, or that exalting dragons is wrong, or that you like your dragons for the "wrong reason" if you aren't intensely sentimental about them, or that wanting dragon likes is selfish. Are these occasionally in response to other people's harsh attitudes? Yes. Have they ever widely been referred to as elitists? Not that I can recall.

I think everyone accepts that trying to declare your playstyle as the "right" one is wrong and insulting to others. But I also think that the term "elitism" itself is sort of just... FR's word of the week. A few users probably used it initially, and now many more people are, because it's a concise way of summarizing (and, in some cases, insulting) the arguments they see in others. But as a result, people are using "elitism" to mean anything from "collects G1s" to "bought Scattersights" to "values rarity." Some people are probably being, by definition, elitist- but people who aren't and have other arguments that happen to land them on the same "side" are being lumped in with them. Which tends to be how strawmen are born, imo.

(I think the same thing is happening with the term "accessible" as per this update, though that's slightly different. New eye types are technically more accessible, but people are conflating that type of accessibility with things like accessibility for disabled people, which doesn't help anyone's arguments because of how incredibly unequal and unrelated the two issues are. And because of the actual, withstanding issues FR has with disability accommodations, none of which seem particularly related to the eye update beyond things like phobias, and which weren't "fixed" by this update in any capacity.)

Drakessis

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May 06, 2021 16:23:49

I feel like people are, outside of specific attempts to define the term in threads like this, conflating elitism with valuing dragons financially. There's been no shortage of people claiming in the past that G1s or doubles/triples are a waste of money, or that exalting dragons is wrong, or that you like your dragons for the "wrong reason" if you aren't intensely sentimental about them, or that wanting dragon likes is selfish. Are these occasionally in response to other people's harsh attitudes? Yes. Have they ever widely been referred to as elitists? Not that I can recall.

I think everyone accepts that trying to declare your playstyle as the "right" one is wrong and insulting to others. But I also think that the term "elitism" itself is sort of just... FR's word of the week. A few users probably used it initially, and now many more people are, because it's a concise way of summarizing (and, in some cases, insulting) the arguments they see in others. But as a result, people are using "elitism" to mean anything from "collects G1s" to "bought Scattersights" to "values rarity." Some people are probably being, by definition, elitist- but people who aren't and have other arguments that happen to land them on the same "side" are being lumped in with them. Which tends to be how strawmen are born, imo.

(I think the same thing is happening with the term "accessible" as per this update, though that's slightly different. New eye types are technically more accessible, but people are conflating that type of accessibility with things like accessibility for disabled people, which doesn't help anyone's arguments because of how incredibly unequal and unrelated the two issues are. And because of the actual, withstanding issues FR has with disability accommodations, none of which seem particularly related to the eye update beyond things like phobias, and which weren't "fixed" by this update in any capacity.)

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Last edited on May 06, 2021 16:26:17 by Drakessis

This topic is way too hot for me to go into deep and not come out burned, but I have two thoughts:

1. Sometimes a well-meaning user posts something like “Why would people gene a dragon that isn’t a Gen 1?” It happens very rarely but it leaves a bad impression on the community.

2. Humans tend to have a knee-jerk response any time we hear someone say they spent a lot of resources (time or money) on something we don’t personally value. I once had a math teacher who told the class that he spent $200 on a litter box for his cat and the whole class was aghast. “What’s wrong with you man?” But that $200 litter box that scooped itself was worth every penny to that math teacher. As such, Gen 1 elitism generally only gets thrown at people who participate in expensive auctions, not at people who break open a few eggs and gene them up. At least from what I’ve noticed.

Pheonyx

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May 06, 2021 16:30:28

This topic is way too hot for me to go into deep and not come out burned, but I have two thoughts:

1. Sometimes a well-meaning user posts something like “Why would people gene a dragon that isn’t a Gen 1?” It happens very rarely but it leaves a bad impression on the community.

2. Humans tend to have a knee-jerk response any time we hear someone say they spent a lot of resources (time or money) on something we don’t personally value. I once had a math teacher who told the class that he spent $200 on a litter box for his cat and the whole class was aghast. “What’s wrong with you man?” But that $200 litter box that scooped itself was worth every penny to that math teacher. As such, Gen 1 elitism generally only gets thrown at people who participate in expensive auctions, not at people who break open a few eggs and gene them up. At least from what I’ve noticed.

I personally feel elitism is when you want your dragons marked as 'special' or others marked as 'not special' when, functionally, those dragons are the same.

I mean, if someone wants to collect a dragon that only has 1 other with that color combo on site, go for it. I don't really understand the appeal, especially on a site like FR that has a finite (large, but still finite) set of combos, and that particular combo might not remain 'rare' long if other people find it appealing.

But, if that person gets a dragon like that, then someone else manages to obtain breeding pairs that consistently produce that combo, thus removing the 'rarity' of it, and the first person then wants those dragons marked as 'clones' or their dragon marked as 'second dragon to exist with this combo', to me, that is elitism.

I think that is one of the issues is that people are getting pride at achievements confused with elitism, and it isn't. Having pride is fine, and can be healthy and good.

Edit: realized that I didn't exactly say what I meant.

By 'marking' dragons, I don't mean with badges that they can only apply to their dragons, but by having a site forced mark.

Jemadar

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May 06, 2021 16:31:11

I personally feel elitism is when you want your dragons marked as 'special' or others marked as 'not special' when, functionally, those dragons are the same.

I mean, if someone wants to collect a dragon that only has 1 other with that color combo on site, go for it. I don't really understand the appeal, especially on a site like FR that has a finite (large, but still finite) set of combos, and that particular combo might not remain 'rare' long if other people find it appealing.

But, if that person gets a dragon like that, then someone else manages to obtain breeding pairs that consistently produce that combo, thus removing the 'rarity' of it, and the first person then wants those dragons marked as 'clones' or their dragon marked as 'second dragon to exist with this combo', to me, that is elitism.

I think that is one of the issues is that people are getting pride at achievements confused with elitism, and it isn't. Having pride is fine, and can be healthy and good.

Edit: realized that I didn't exactly say what I meant.

By 'marking' dragons, I don't mean with badges that they can only apply to their dragons, but by having a site forced mark.

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[quote name="Almedha" date="2021-05-06 16:03:50" ] I'm actually not sure. A savvy person would say, "I just like natural hatched primals better" (for example), because unless they explicitly say that natural hatched primals are better you can't tell if it's elitist or not. But they can be. And I don't know if "just liking x better" is just elitist on it's own, because there is an element of better there. You can be elitist about ugly dragons, for example. Like you might think that having ugly dragons is better and there doesn't need to be as reason: the fact you think it's better for any reason means just that. You think it's better. But is that elitist? Because I feel like it's just thinking something is better. Or the best. But if that's true, it's not always bad. It becomes bad when you exclude other people for not being at whatever your standard is for, say, ugly dragons. Putting down other ugly dragons for not being ugly enough. Saying they aren't "real" ugly dragons of they have certain traits or something. Like Wildclaws can't be ugly because they're too popular or something. And in a game of aesthetics, of course, you're going to be excluding things from, say, searching to buy ugly dragons based on absolutely crazy criteria that matters to no one but you. I think that's the point. So is it bad. I don't honestly know. I guess I gotta read the thread now for the spoilers. But I do know one thing: it's easiest to tell the opposite, because someone who genuinely doesn't care would never mention either way at all. [/quote] This is such a stelrange outlook to have. When I think elitist I think "someone who believes they are superior to another and tries to exclude them" This is the actual definition of the word. e·lit·ist /??l?d?st,??l?d?st/ adjective adjective: elitist relating to or supporting the view that a society or system should be led by an elite. "older men with an elitist attitude about music" demonstrating a superior attitude or behavior associated with an elite. "some that say he is a spoiled, elitist snob" noun noun: elitist; plural noun: elitists a person who believes that a society or system should be led by an elite. "critics portray him as an out-of-touch elitist" What you have described is someone's personal aesthetic preference that you have then ascribed elitism too. That's not what the word actually means or his it should be used at all.

Sorel

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May 06, 2021 16:44:51

Almedha wrote on 2021-05-06 16:03:50:

I'm actually not sure.

A savvy person would say, "I just like natural hatched primals better" (for example), because unless they explicitly say that natural hatched primals are better you can't tell if it's elitist or not. But they can be. And I don't know if "just liking x better" is just elitist on it's own, because there is an element of better there. You can be elitist about ugly dragons, for example. Like you might think that having ugly dragons is better and there doesn't need to be as reason: the fact you think it's better for any reason means just that. You think it's better. But is that elitist?

Because I feel like it's just thinking something is better. Or the best. But if that's true, it's not always bad. It becomes bad when you exclude other people for not being at whatever your standard is for, say, ugly dragons. Putting down other ugly dragons for not being ugly enough. Saying they aren't "real" ugly dragons of they have certain traits or something. Like Wildclaws can't be ugly because they're too popular or something.

And in a game of aesthetics, of course, you're going to be excluding things from, say, searching to buy ugly dragons based on absolutely crazy criteria that matters to no one but you. I think that's the point. So is it bad. I don't honestly know. I guess I gotta read the thread now for the spoilers.

But I do know one thing: it's easiest to tell the opposite, because someone who genuinely doesn't care would never mention either way at all.

This is such a stelrange outlook to have. When I think elitist I think "someone who believes they are superior to another and tries to exclude them"

This is the actual definition of the word.

e·lit·ist
/??l?d?st,??l?d?st/
adjective
adjective: elitist
relating to or supporting the view that a society or system should be led by an elite.
"older men with an elitist attitude about music"
demonstrating a superior attitude or behavior associated with an elite.
"some that say he is a spoiled, elitist snob"
noun
noun: elitist; plural noun: elitists
a person who believes that a society or system should be led by an elite.
"critics portray him as an out-of-touch elitist"

What you have described is someone's personal aesthetic preference that you have then ascribed elitism too. That's not what the word actually means or his it should be used at all.

[quote name="Sorel" date="2021-05-06 16:44:51" ] [quote name="Almedha" date="2021-05-06 16:03:50" ] I'm actually not sure. A savvy person would say, "I just like natural hatched primals better" (for example), because unless they explicitly say that natural hatched primals are better you can't tell if it's elitist or not. But they can be. And I don't know if "just liking x better" is just elitist on it's own, because there is an element of better there. You can be elitist about ugly dragons, for example. Like you might think that having ugly dragons is better and there doesn't need to be as reason: the fact you think it's better for any reason means just that. You think it's better. But is that elitist? Because I feel like it's just thinking something is better. Or the best. But if that's true, it's not always bad. It becomes bad when you exclude other people for not being at whatever your standard is for, say, ugly dragons. Putting down other ugly dragons for not being ugly enough. Saying they aren't "real" ugly dragons of they have certain traits or something. Like Wildclaws can't be ugly because they're too popular or something. And in a game of aesthetics, of course, you're going to be excluding things from, say, searching to buy ugly dragons based on absolutely crazy criteria that matters to no one but you. I think that's the point. So is it bad. I don't honestly know. I guess I gotta read the thread now for the spoilers. But I do know one thing: it's easiest to tell the opposite, because someone who genuinely doesn't care would never mention either way at all. [/quote] This is such a stelrange outlook to have. When I think elitist I think "someone who believes they are superior to another and tries to exclude them" This is the actual definition of the word. e·lit·ist /??l?d?st,??l?d?st/ adjective adjective: elitist relating to or supporting the view that a society or system should be led by an elite. "older men with an elitist attitude about music" demonstrating a superior attitude or behavior associated with an elite. "some that say he is a spoiled, elitist snob" noun noun: elitist; plural noun: elitists a person who believes that a society or system should be led by an elite. "critics portray him as an out-of-touch elitist" What you have described is someone's personal aesthetic preference that you have then ascribed elitism too. That's not what the word actually means or his it should be used at all. [/quote] Well, that's because it's not socially adaptive to state you're actually elitist. People don't like it, so it's a good idea to hide it if you are, and it's easy to do by simply saying it's a preference. So teasing out the preference from the belief it's really better is the difference. EDIT: That is, the question seems to be what it looks like on FR, not what the definition is. Anybody could look that up, as clearly demonstrated here. And I don't know what it looks like on FR, because it certainly doesn't look like someone posting, "my dragons and playstyle are superior and everyone who doesn't agree shouldn't be playing" or something. If it were that obvious, we wouldn't ask the question.

Almedha

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May 06, 2021 16:53:46

Sorel wrote on 2021-05-06 16:44:51:

Almedha wrote on 2021-05-06 16:03:50:

I'm actually not sure.

A savvy person would say, "I just like natural hatched primals better" (for example), because unless they explicitly say that natural hatched primals are better you can't tell if it's elitist or not. But they can be. And I don't know if "just liking x better" is just elitist on it's own, because there is an element of better there. You can be elitist about ugly dragons, for example. Like you might think that having ugly dragons is better and there doesn't need to be as reason: the fact you think it's better for any reason means just that. You think it's better. But is that elitist?

Because I feel like it's just thinking something is better. Or the best. But if that's true, it's not always bad. It becomes bad when you exclude other people for not being at whatever your standard is for, say, ugly dragons. Putting down other ugly dragons for not being ugly enough. Saying they aren't "real" ugly dragons of they have certain traits or something. Like Wildclaws can't be ugly because they're too popular or something.

And in a game of aesthetics, of course, you're going to be excluding things from, say, searching to buy ugly dragons based on absolutely crazy criteria that matters to no one but you. I think that's the point. So is it bad. I don't honestly know. I guess I gotta read the thread now for the spoilers.

But I do know one thing: it's easiest to tell the opposite, because someone who genuinely doesn't care would never mention either way at all.

This is such a stelrange outlook to have. When I think elitist I think "someone who believes they are superior to another and tries to exclude them"

This is the actual definition of the word.

e·lit·ist
/??l?d?st,??l?d?st/
adjective
adjective: elitist
relating to or supporting the view that a society or system should be led by an elite.
"older men with an elitist attitude about music"
demonstrating a superior attitude or behavior associated with an elite.
"some that say he is a spoiled, elitist snob"
noun
noun: elitist; plural noun: elitists
a person who believes that a society or system should be led by an elite.
"critics portray him as an out-of-touch elitist"

What you have described is someone's personal aesthetic preference that you have then ascribed elitism too. That's not what the word actually means or his it should be used at all.

Well, that's because it's not socially adaptive to state you're actually elitist. People don't like it, so it's a good idea to hide it if you are, and it's easy to do by simply saying it's a preference. So teasing out the preference from the belief it's really better is the difference.

EDIT:
That is, the question seems to be what it looks like on FR, not what the definition is. Anybody could look that up, as clearly demonstrated here. And I don't know what it looks like on FR, because it certainly doesn't look like someone posting, "my dragons and playstyle are superior and everyone who doesn't agree shouldn't be playing" or something. If it were that obvious, we wouldn't ask the question.

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Last edited on May 06, 2021 17:51:47 by Almedha

[quote name="Almedha" date="2021-05-06 16:03:50" ] But I do know one thing: it's easiest to tell the opposite, because someone who genuinely doesn't care would never mention either way at all. [/quote] Actually, I'd argue that this is not necessarily true. Just using myself as an example, here. In help threads especially, or in threads talking about dragon value, people will often ask things like "what is this dragon worth?" meaning how much can they sell it for. In those threads, when I answer, I will talk about dragon worth by the dragon market. Like, when someone has bred a G1, I will talk about how that lowers monetary value, and if it's relevant I might mention that I once bought a fully gened bred G1 for 10kT and, at the time, was seeing a lot of fully gened bred G1s sit in the AH unbought for a period of time around the same 10kT-15kT price point. I feel like maybe the way I say that previous sentence makes it seem like I don't really like her, or that her cheapness somehow diminishes her in my eyes— but if that were the case, I wouldn't have bought her in the first place. I didn't buy her to exalt or anything: she immediately got dressed and given an old fest skin that matched her [i]perfectly[/i]* and is still pending a rename at some point once I find one that I like for her, because I tend to be slow with those things. But the goal in those threads and in the occasional FRD discussion about the dragon market as a whole is not to make a subjective value judgement based on my own preferences, but to give information to people about what others are willing to pay for a dragon that is as concrete as a user-driven market can get (which is… not very). My own preferences have nothing to do with it, but if you just looked at what I was saying about value I'm willing to bet it could be misconstrued. * (I mean, I guess in this instance you could say, "okay, your playstyle values dressing up dragons and putting them in skins/accents" which is not untrue because DRAGON DRESSUP but still would indicate that I don't love the dragons I haven't dressed and put in skins/accents, which is… also not entirely true, as I have a huge emotional attachment to a few dragons who reject all attempts at even the most minimalist dressing and I have accepted that. [emoji=ridgeback laughing size=1])

mothscale

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May 06, 2021 16:56:27

Almedha wrote on 2021-05-06 16:03:50:

But I do know one thing: it's easiest to tell the opposite, because someone who genuinely doesn't care would never mention either way at all.

Actually, I'd argue that this is not necessarily true.

Just using myself as an example, here. In help threads especially, or in threads talking about dragon value, people will often ask things like "what is this dragon worth?" meaning how much can they sell it for. In those threads, when I answer, I will talk about dragon worth by the dragon market. Like, when someone has bred a G1, I will talk about how that lowers monetary value, and if it's relevant I might mention that I once bought a fully gened bred G1 for 10kT and, at the time, was seeing a lot of fully gened bred G1s sit in the AH unbought for a period of time around the same 10kT-15kT price point. I feel like maybe the way I say that previous sentence makes it seem like I don't really like her, or that her cheapness somehow diminishes her in my eyes— but if that were the case, I wouldn't have bought her in the first place. I didn't buy her to exalt or anything: she immediately got dressed and given an old fest skin that matched her perfectly* and is still pending a rename at some point once I find one that I like for her, because I tend to be slow with those things.

But the goal in those threads and in the occasional FRD discussion about the dragon market as a whole is not to make a subjective value judgement based on my own preferences, but to give information to people about what others are willing to pay for a dragon that is as concrete as a user-driven market can get (which is… not very). My own preferences have nothing to do with it, but if you just looked at what I was saying about value I'm willing to bet it could be misconstrued.

* (I mean, I guess in this instance you could say, "okay, your playstyle values dressing up dragons and putting them in skins/accents" which is not untrue because DRAGON DRESSUP but still would indicate that I don't love the dragons I haven't dressed and put in skins/accents, which is… also not entirely true, as I have a huge emotional attachment to a few dragons who reject all attempts at even the most minimalist dressing and I have accepted that.

)

Last edited on May 06, 2021 17:01:32 by mothscale