[quote name="mothscale" date="2021-05-06 16:56:27" ]
[quote name="Almedha" date="2021-05-06 16:03:50" ]
But I do know one thing: it's easiest to tell the opposite, because someone who genuinely doesn't care would never mention either way at all.
[/quote]
Actually, I'd argue that this is not necessarily true.
Just using myself as an example, here. In help threads especially, or in threads talking about dragon value, people will often ask things like "what is this dragon worth?" meaning how much can they sell it for. In those threads, when I answer, I will talk about dragon worth by the dragon market. Like, when someone has bred a G1, I will talk about how that lowers monetary value, and if it's relevant I might mention that I once bought a fully gened bred G1 for 10kT and, at the time, was seeing a lot of fully gened bred G1s sit in the AH unbought for a period of time around the same 10kT-15kT price point. I feel like maybe the way I say that previous sentence makes it seem like I don't really like her, or that her cheapness somehow diminishes her in my eyes— but if that were the case, I wouldn't have bought her in the first place. I didn't buy her to exalt or anything: she immediately got dressed and given an old fest skin that matched her [i]perfectly[/i] and is still pending a rename at some point once I find one that I like for her, because I tend to be slow with those things.
But the goal in those threads and in the occasional FRD discussion about the dragon market as a whole is not to make a subjective value judgement based on my own preferences, but to give information to people about what others are willing to pay for a dragon that is as concrete as a user-driven market can get (which is… not very). My own preferences have nothing to do with it, but if you just looked at what I was saying about value I'm willing to bet it could be misconstrued.
[/quote]
I think there's a difference between elitism and knowing or answering a question about what the market value of something is (if I understand your post... I'm not really sure). And I would never think that somebody explaining market value was making a statement that the market should be that way or something. Like I was trying to say (not very well), you can be elitist about ugly dragons and, for the sake of the example, know they aren't very valuable but still believe they're the superior dragon.
I'm not sure I actually answered what you were saying coherently but I hope so heh...
mothscale wrote on 2021-05-06 16:56:27:
Almedha wrote on 2021-05-06 16:03:50:
But I do know one thing: it's easiest to tell the opposite, because someone who genuinely doesn't care would never mention either way at all.
Actually, I'd argue that this is not necessarily true.
Just using myself as an example, here. In help threads especially, or in threads talking about dragon value, people will often ask things like "what is this dragon worth?" meaning how much can they sell it for. In those threads, when I answer, I will talk about dragon worth by the dragon market. Like, when someone has bred a G1, I will talk about how that lowers monetary value, and if it's relevant I might mention that I once bought a fully gened bred G1 for 10kT and, at the time, was seeing a lot of fully gened bred G1s sit in the AH unbought for a period of time around the same 10kT-15kT price point. I feel like maybe the way I say that previous sentence makes it seem like I don't really like her, or that her cheapness somehow diminishes her in my eyes— but if that were the case, I wouldn't have bought her in the first place. I didn't buy her to exalt or anything: she immediately got dressed and given an old fest skin that matched her
perfectly and is still pending a rename at some point once I find one that I like for her, because I tend to be slow with those things.
But the goal in those threads and in the occasional FRD discussion about the dragon market as a whole is not to make a subjective value judgement based on my own preferences, but to give information to people about what others are willing to pay for a dragon that is as concrete as a user-driven market can get (which is… not very). My own preferences have nothing to do with it, but if you just looked at what I was saying about value I'm willing to bet it could be misconstrued.
I think there's a difference between elitism and knowing or answering a question about what the market value of something is (if I understand your post... I'm not really sure). And I would never think that somebody explaining market value was making a statement that the market should be that way or something. Like I was trying to say (not very well), you can be elitist about ugly dragons and, for the sake of the example, know they aren't very valuable but still believe they're the superior dragon.
I'm not sure I actually answered what you were saying coherently but I hope so heh...
[quote name="Almedha" date="2021-05-06 17:01:10" ]
[quote name="mothscale" date="2021-05-06 16:56:27" ]
[quote name="Almedha" date="2021-05-06 16:03:50" ]
But I do know one thing: it's easiest to tell the opposite, because someone who genuinely doesn't care would never mention either way at all.
[/quote]
Actually, I'd argue that this is not necessarily true.
Just using myself as an example, here. In help threads especially, or in threads talking about dragon value, people will often ask things like "what is this dragon worth?" meaning how much can they sell it for. In those threads, when I answer, I will talk about dragon worth by the dragon market. Like, when someone has bred a G1, I will talk about how that lowers monetary value, and if it's relevant I might mention that I once bought a fully gened bred G1 for 10kT and, at the time, was seeing a lot of fully gened bred G1s sit in the AH unbought for a period of time around the same 10kT-15kT price point. I feel like maybe the way I say that previous sentence makes it seem like I don't really like her, or that her cheapness somehow diminishes her in my eyes— but if that were the case, I wouldn't have bought her in the first place. I didn't buy her to exalt or anything: she immediately got dressed and given an old fest skin that matched her [i]perfectly[/i] and is still pending a rename at some point once I find one that I like for her, because I tend to be slow with those things.
But the goal in those threads and in the occasional FRD discussion about the dragon market as a whole is not to make a subjective value judgement based on my own preferences, but to give information to people about what others are willing to pay for a dragon that is as concrete as a user-driven market can get (which is… not very). My own preferences have nothing to do with it, but if you just looked at what I was saying about value I'm willing to bet it could be misconstrued.
[/quote]
I think here's a difference between elitism and knowing or answering a question about what the market value of something is (if I understand your post... I'm not really sure). Like I was trying to say (not very well), you can be elitist about ugly dragons and, for the sake of the example, know they aren't very valuable but still believe they're the superior dragon.
I'm not sure I actually answered what you were saying coherently but I hope so heh...
[/quote]
Oops, I might have misunderstood you, then, yeah, because I think we're saying the same general thing but in opposite ways, if that makes any sense. It might not! This might just be a sign in general that my reading comprehension is having a bad day. [emoji=ridgeback laughing size=1] O-oh well! I'm glad you clarified, and I think I do understand better now.
Almedha wrote on 2021-05-06 17:01:10:
mothscale wrote on 2021-05-06 16:56:27:
Almedha wrote on 2021-05-06 16:03:50:
But I do know one thing: it's easiest to tell the opposite, because someone who genuinely doesn't care would never mention either way at all.
Actually, I'd argue that this is not necessarily true.
Just using myself as an example, here. In help threads especially, or in threads talking about dragon value, people will often ask things like "what is this dragon worth?" meaning how much can they sell it for. In those threads, when I answer, I will talk about dragon worth by the dragon market. Like, when someone has bred a G1, I will talk about how that lowers monetary value, and if it's relevant I might mention that I once bought a fully gened bred G1 for 10kT and, at the time, was seeing a lot of fully gened bred G1s sit in the AH unbought for a period of time around the same 10kT-15kT price point. I feel like maybe the way I say that previous sentence makes it seem like I don't really like her, or that her cheapness somehow diminishes her in my eyes— but if that were the case, I wouldn't have bought her in the first place. I didn't buy her to exalt or anything: she immediately got dressed and given an old fest skin that matched her
perfectly and is still pending a rename at some point once I find one that I like for her, because I tend to be slow with those things.
But the goal in those threads and in the occasional FRD discussion about the dragon market as a whole is not to make a subjective value judgement based on my own preferences, but to give information to people about what others are willing to pay for a dragon that is as concrete as a user-driven market can get (which is… not very). My own preferences have nothing to do with it, but if you just looked at what I was saying about value I'm willing to bet it could be misconstrued.
I think here's a difference between elitism and knowing or answering a question about what the market value of something is (if I understand your post... I'm not really sure). Like I was trying to say (not very well), you can be elitist about ugly dragons and, for the sake of the example, know they aren't very valuable but still believe they're the superior dragon.
I'm not sure I actually answered what you were saying coherently but I hope so heh...
Oops, I might have misunderstood you, then, yeah, because I think we're saying the same general thing but in opposite ways, if that makes any sense. It might not! This might just be a sign in general that my reading comprehension is having a bad day.
O-oh well! I'm glad you clarified, and I think I do understand better now.
(using an example from another site)
'Non-themed pets are generally not worth anything, and it isn't really worth it to trap them'
VS
'Why did you bother wasting your traps on that. It is non-themed and worthless'
Both are the same sentiment, but to me, one seems more 'elitist' than the other. The other is just a general statement on the state of affairs.
(using an example from another site)
'Non-themed pets are generally not worth anything, and it isn't really worth it to trap them'
VS
'Why did you bother wasting your traps on that. It is non-themed and worthless'
Both are the same sentiment, but to me, one seems more 'elitist' than the other. The other is just a general statement on the state of affairs.
I think there's a lot of pride associated with hatched primals. It doesn't make them functionally any better than vialed ones, but some who have primals they worked hard for may feel as if theirs being lumped up with vialed one takes away theirs' uniqueness. I guess that can be seen as elitist? I think it's more a touch to their ego than anything serious.
I think there's a lot of pride associated with hatched primals. It doesn't make them functionally any better than vialed ones, but some who have primals they worked hard for may feel as if theirs being lumped up with vialed one takes away theirs' uniqueness. I guess that can be seen as elitist? I think it's more a touch to their ego than anything serious.
@
Jemadar
If you don't mind my being nosy, which site is that? That's a mechanic I haven't stumbled across on pet sites quite yet. (Sorry, not meaning to derail, my curiosity just got the better of me hahaha)
@
Jemadar
If you don't mind my being nosy, which site is that? That's a mechanic I haven't stumbled across on pet sites quite yet. (Sorry, not meaning to derail, my curiosity just got the better of me hahaha)
[quote name="Crimsonpizza" date="2021-05-06 17:28:27" ]
I think there's a lot of pride associated with hatched primals. It doesn't make them functionally any better than vialed ones, but some who have primals they worked hard for may feel as if theirs being lumped up with vialed one takes away theirs' uniqueness. I guess that can be seen as elitist? I think it's more a touch to their ego than anything serious.
[/quote]
This is the kind of sentiment that.. I don't really feel good about? Because 500kt is hard work for a casual like me, meanwhile some people might just... get lucky with their hatches? To see that all my effort to customize my dragons might be deemed worthless, it's not a good feeling (I know the point is that the dragon is supposed to be special to me only and I shouldn't let it get to my head, but.... it's hard lmao)
But this is just my personal perspective. I actually struggle a lot with self-worth and have to actively convince myself to not get into g1s just to "be like the cool kids" haha. And I understand that people who value uniqueness will feel that they've been shafted by the update - after all a lot of this is subjective.
Crimsonpizza wrote on 2021-05-06 17:28:27:
I think there's a lot of pride associated with hatched primals. It doesn't make them functionally any better than vialed ones, but some who have primals they worked hard for may feel as if theirs being lumped up with vialed one takes away theirs' uniqueness. I guess that can be seen as elitist? I think it's more a touch to their ego than anything serious.
This is the kind of sentiment that.. I don't really feel good about? Because 500kt is hard work for a casual like me, meanwhile some people might just... get lucky with their hatches? To see that all my effort to customize my dragons might be deemed worthless, it's not a good feeling (I know the point is that the dragon is supposed to be special to me only and I shouldn't let it get to my head, but.... it's hard lmao)
But this is just my personal perspective. I actually struggle a lot with self-worth and have to actively convince myself to not get into g1s just to "be like the cool kids" haha. And I understand that people who value uniqueness will feel that they've been shafted by the update - after all a lot of this is subjective.
My dragons' names are 2-3 separate words. Please put spaces between them!!!
[quote name="Darkfeather" date="2021-05-06 11:30:53" ]
Eliteism is a mindset that one person deems themselves superior over another person for one reason or another.
There is nothing wrong with collecting rare things. At all. It's a fun thing that I think most people like. I'm one of these people. Its fun for me to be able to try and attain, be it hatching or buying, a dragon that randomly got its pretty colors rather than through intentional breeding.
It's when it comes to point that people think they are better than others because of their achievements that its a problem. I don't think this way, and I don't think most people do. But those who don't engage in this play style may have the misconception they are being looked down on or encountered someone who did act that way. Doesn't mean we all do.
Plus there are some that feel that its unfair that other people should have things that they don't. That's not a good mindset to have either. Stuff like this happens in real life too. It's the the nature of things. Resentment or looking down on others is never good in any sense.
[/quote]
This. 100 percent this.
Darkfeather wrote on 2021-05-06 11:30:53:
Eliteism is a mindset that one person deems themselves superior over another person for one reason or another.
There is nothing wrong with collecting rare things. At all. It's a fun thing that I think most people like. I'm one of these people. Its fun for me to be able to try and attain, be it hatching or buying, a dragon that randomly got its pretty colors rather than through intentional breeding.
It's when it comes to point that people think they are better than others because of their achievements that its a problem. I don't think this way, and I don't think most people do. But those who don't engage in this play style may have the misconception they are being looked down on or encountered someone who did act that way. Doesn't mean we all do.
Plus there are some that feel that its unfair that other people should have things that they don't. That's not a good mindset to have either. Stuff like this happens in real life too. It's the the nature of things. Resentment or looking down on others is never good in any sense.
This. 100 percent this.
I will put something here eventually.
[quote name="Drakessis" date="2021-05-06 16:23:49" ]
I feel like people are, outside of specific attempts to define the term in threads like this, conflating elitism with valuing dragons financially. There's been no shortage of people claiming in the past that G1s or doubles/triples are a waste of money, or that exalting dragons is wrong, or that you like your dragons for the "wrong reason" if you aren't intensely sentimental about them, or that wanting dragon likes is selfish. Are these occasionally in response to other people's harsh attitudes? Yes. Have they ever widely been referred to as elitists? Not that I can recall.
I think everyone accepts that trying to declare your playstyle as the "right" one is wrong and insulting to others. But I also think that the term "elitism" itself is sort of just... FR's word of the week. A few users probably used it initially, and now many more people are, because it's a concise way of summarizing (and, in some cases, insulting) the arguments they see in others. But as a result, people are using "elitism" to mean anything from "collects G1s" to "bought Scattersights" to "values rarity." Some people are probably being, by definition, elitist- but people who aren't and have other arguments that happen to land them on the same "side" are being lumped in with them. Which tends to be how strawmen are born, imo.
(I think the same thing is happening with the term "accessible" as per this update, though that's slightly different. New eye types are technically more accessible, but people are conflating that type of accessibility with things like accessibility for disabled people, which doesn't help anyone's arguments because of how incredibly unequal and unrelated the two issues are. And because of the actual, withstanding issues FR has with disability accommodations, none of which seem particularly related to the eye update beyond things like phobias, and which weren't "fixed" by this update in any capacity.)
[/quote]
agree 100% with all of this, especially the middle paragraph! i've been thinking the same thing while reading these threads for the past few days, but never could quite put into it words.
Drakessis wrote on 2021-05-06 16:23:49:
I feel like people are, outside of specific attempts to define the term in threads like this, conflating elitism with valuing dragons financially. There's been no shortage of people claiming in the past that G1s or doubles/triples are a waste of money, or that exalting dragons is wrong, or that you like your dragons for the "wrong reason" if you aren't intensely sentimental about them, or that wanting dragon likes is selfish. Are these occasionally in response to other people's harsh attitudes? Yes. Have they ever widely been referred to as elitists? Not that I can recall.
I think everyone accepts that trying to declare your playstyle as the "right" one is wrong and insulting to others. But I also think that the term "elitism" itself is sort of just... FR's word of the week. A few users probably used it initially, and now many more people are, because it's a concise way of summarizing (and, in some cases, insulting) the arguments they see in others. But as a result, people are using "elitism" to mean anything from "collects G1s" to "bought Scattersights" to "values rarity." Some people are probably being, by definition, elitist- but people who aren't and have other arguments that happen to land them on the same "side" are being lumped in with them. Which tends to be how strawmen are born, imo.
(I think the same thing is happening with the term "accessible" as per this update, though that's slightly different. New eye types are technically more accessible, but people are conflating that type of accessibility with things like accessibility for disabled people, which doesn't help anyone's arguments because of how incredibly unequal and unrelated the two issues are. And because of the actual, withstanding issues FR has with disability accommodations, none of which seem particularly related to the eye update beyond things like phobias, and which weren't "fixed" by this update in any capacity.)
agree 100% with all of this, especially the middle paragraph! i've been thinking the same thing while reading these threads for the past few days, but never could quite put into it words.
on the lookout for a Cream/Stonewash XYY G1!
As a G1 collector and retired item collector, etc etc, I 100% agree that elitism is bad. But! don't confuse elitism with completely neutral, ethical behaviour.
Being a G1 collector =/= elitism
Being a special eye collector =/= elitism
Being a collector of literally anything expensive =/= elitism
Being content with your achievements =/= elitism
Considering everything else worthless, basing value of others and their property on financial value or achievements, and basing your existence's worth on how people perceive you as a player = elitism
The whole thing about elitism is that it is directly harmful because it is based on an imaginary status, a sense of superiority over others simply due to owning something that's rare, and a desire to feel "exclusive" at the expense of others.
I collect G1s because I just like G1s. It's not even a collection, I just like their colours and I like what I can make out of them, I don't value a G1 over a non-G1, I just like having the double none in their offspring - it's visually cleaner to me. I don't collect them for other people, as a matter of fact, 90% of my dragons come straight outta the bin, there's nothing in here to impress other people with. I want a clean slate I can turn into something incredible for myself and maybe try and "save" some dragons from exaltation along the way, simply because my tastes are uncommon, hence why they end up on exaltation row.
Also, saw another person talk about Diamonds. As a mineral collector, I know there's a whole fuss about lab-created minerals and how they're "horrible" and "fake" and "unnatural" when they can have much better clarity, are still completely credible minerals as they're chemically the exact same thing, and are natural because we are a part of nature and everything we create is a part of nature. Man-made? Sure. Unnatural? Absolutely not. It's a prime example of elitism. I have some perfect man-made mineral specimens and I have them for their looks and presentability on my shelves because I like the happy chemical the shiny inorganic solid with a crystal structure gives me
As a G1 collector and retired item collector, etc etc, I 100% agree that elitism is bad. But! don't confuse elitism with completely neutral, ethical behaviour.
Being a G1 collector =/= elitism
Being a special eye collector =/= elitism
Being a collector of literally anything expensive =/= elitism
Being content with your achievements =/= elitism
Considering everything else worthless, basing value of others and their property on financial value or achievements, and basing your existence's worth on how people perceive you as a player = elitism
The whole thing about elitism is that it is directly harmful because it is based on an imaginary status, a sense of superiority over others simply due to owning something that's rare, and a desire to feel "exclusive" at the expense of others.
I collect G1s because I just like G1s. It's not even a collection, I just like their colours and I like what I can make out of them, I don't value a G1 over a non-G1, I just like having the double none in their offspring - it's visually cleaner to me. I don't collect them for other people, as a matter of fact, 90% of my dragons come straight outta the bin, there's nothing in here to impress other people with. I want a clean slate I can turn into something incredible for myself and maybe try and "save" some dragons from exaltation along the way, simply because my tastes are uncommon, hence why they end up on exaltation row.
Also, saw another person talk about Diamonds. As a mineral collector, I know there's a whole fuss about lab-created minerals and how they're "horrible" and "fake" and "unnatural" when they can have much better clarity, are still completely credible minerals as they're chemically the exact same thing, and are natural because we are a part of nature and everything we create is a part of nature. Man-made? Sure. Unnatural? Absolutely not. It's a prime example of elitism. I have some perfect man-made mineral specimens and I have them for their looks and presentability on my shelves because I like the happy chemical the shiny inorganic solid with a crystal structure gives me
Elitism is when people start acting like having one thing makes them better or more special than others.
Elitism is when people start acting like having one thing makes them better or more special than others.
