Suggestions

[quote name="Vendrus" date="2021-01-27 09:18:01" ] [quote name="Jemadar" date="2021-01-27 09:11:50" ] [quote name="Vendrus" date="2021-01-27 09:07:07" ] [quote name="Jemadar" date="2021-01-27 08:41:46" ] While I agree that there should be a way to view the lists should a person want to, I would like to point out that people already have control over whether or not a person can view a lineage by simply blocking a person. Then you can't view that dragon at all, so you can't see the lineages. I don't really see how this would be that much different than someone being blocked and running into a dragon with this. I think that the full lineage should be viewable so that players can't try to 'hide' problematic offspring while selling, because many people will pay more for a dragon without unnamed offspring, or in some cases any offspring at all, so the other player has to know that there are hidden offspring, and should be able to view them in some way. [/quote] I don't think blocking is relevant to this since it's primary use is not to prevent tracing (and can be avoided for lineage tracing by logging out anyway). The mechanic of being able to see offspring provides benefits of both lineage tracing and avoiding scams. [/quote] which is why I said it should be able to be toggled to full view, but I don't think that lineage tracing should be the only reason why the list has to be owner side only, because lineages can already be 'broken' by blocking. I do think that non-owners should have a way to view full lists, even if it has to be an account side toggle, but I also do think that owners should be able to let others see the dragons how they want them to be seen. [/quote] Ah, I missed your point. I agree that it should be visible to non-owners, I just don't think it should be the default as it could easily be misleading, particularly to new players. A 'cosmetic lineage' tab in the lineage box maybe. (Yes, people can and should be responsible for checking but also, people are human lmao and we have processes and popups for a reason) EDIT: I think I missed your point because I read the person you were replying to as saying 'full lineage should be available as well'. My original post was an off the cuff while walking home post and people seemed to have latched on to the 'owner only' part and missed the alternative I put lmao [/quote] Yeah, it being fully visible at first and something that is 'toggled on' might be nice. It would be interesting at times to see how the owners see their dragons, so I think there should be a way to view it as such.

In terms of hidden offspring lists I think something like this would be enough. Clicking would result in a drop down menu of the dragon's offspring list, available for everyone to click on. That way you get rid of a long ugly list, but it's still incredibly easy to check a dragon's offspring. [img]https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/345873358824538119/804096993060061204/unknown.png[/img]

[quote name="Anchoram" date="2021-01-27 13:16:14" ] In terms of hidden offspring lists I think something like this would be enough. Clicking would result in a drop down menu of the dragon's offspring list, available for everyone to click on. That way you get rid of a long ugly list, but it's still incredibly easy to check a dragon's offspring. [img]https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/345873358824538119/804096993060061204/unknown.png[/img] [/quote] that is basically what I was thinking, and making it different enough (perhaps, though some people might not like, a semi large green + to expand the list) so that a glance won't confuse it with 'none'.

[quote name="Haven" date="2021-01-27 08:27:40" ] [quote name="Almedha" date="2021-01-27 07:26:02" ] [quote name="Haven" date="2021-01-27 07:07:27" ] [quote name="Almedha" date="2021-01-27 06:25:23" ] Why must it be visible only to the owner? [/quote] Because not every unnamed and/or exalted dragon is unwanted or unattached to other active dragons. If I were to exalt my 3rd gen naomi dragon and Willow's owner had exalted dragons hidden then nobody would be able to follow an entire, huge line to buy sought after kiddos just because one person wanted to hide exalted dragons. Owners of those children wouldnt have as much traction to their sales because people wouldnt know that line even existed and they wouldnt be able to prove it because the names been hidden. The user who posted their dragon with purposefully unnamed parents wouldnt be able to have their dragon found in lineages. Just like the initial unnamed exalt, if this wasnt only a visual toggle on the owner's side, it would then affect other people in playing the game. Not to mention people tend to only ever care about their own lineage lists, not other people's. [/quote] I guess was imagining it like a (offspring/parents hidden, click to view) type thing. But really, who cares if someone else is trying to trace their dragon's lineage through mine? It doesn't technically impede play (assay would still work). It's my dragon, and I should be able to have it look the way I want it to. Other people don't really care about others' lineage lists anyway. [/quote] Except they do. If you're a collector of certain lineages it is absolutely essential to be able to trace through lines, not only to prove a dragon is viably connected but also to look for currently breeding lines. #666, kids of #11112(or however many 1s), the Naomi line, along with various original meme dragons whose kids and grandkids people love to collect would become difficult to track through if people couldnt unhide or view the full tree. Heck, some people just like having family members of permas just for lore reasons. You may not look through lineages but people most definitely do. Again, a mechanical benefit shouldnt be superceded by an aesthetic one. Especially when people dont care about what other people's dragon's lineages look like. Every suggestion about exalting unnamed has been from people bitter over their own lists and other people's upset over their own lists. You can still have your lists look how you want to you, but you shouldnt have control over other people's ease of use of the mechanic. Assay only tracks through so many generations and I know for a fact that people are collecting and interbreeding Naomi's 5+ generations out. [/quote] I never said people didn't do that. Heck, I do that. (Unless it's true that "Other people don't really care about others' lineage lists anyway.") I'm saying [i]I don't care[/i]. Your dragon isn't here for my pleasure, even if I've bought a hatchling that came from one of your dragons and I want to know who their grandparents are. There isn't a [i]mechanical[/i] reason why I should have to go sorting through your dragons for lineages or any other reason (and I'm not proposing we make it impossible, just perhaps a little more difficult in favor of giving the owner of the dragon some control over how it looks). Really, the mechanics of the game are very simple. Everything else, from Naomi lineages to lore, is a [i]personal[/i] way to play the game. It's not required. It's not mechanical. Assay bloodlines is all you need for mechanics. Everything else is the way individuals have fun.

A simplified family tree would honestly be great if it just showed the dragon, its parents, its parents’s parents and so on for the 5 generations that count for breeding, without including every single child of those dragons. It’s not super relevant to the issues behind this suggestion, but it would be useful for telling how closely two dragons are related to see those lineages in one place rather than clicking through to see how they’re both related to “MagentaXXY”

I think it would be fine to set your offspring list to be hidden by default on your page if there was some way to make it work, as long as other users can still access the full offspring list. I don’t think you should be able to pick and choose what to hide because I feel like that could easily get misleading or cause errors.

[quote name="Almedha" date="2021-01-27 16:30:59" ] Really, the mechanics of the game are very simple. Everything else, from Naomi lineages to lore, is a [i]personal[/i] way to play the game. It's not required. It's not mechanical. Assay bloodlines is all you need for mechanics. Everything else is the way individuals have fun. [/quote] I just posted but lineage is pretty essential to breeding. Assay bloodlines does tell you if two dragons are related but that doesn’t tell you whether they’re siblings or whether they’re almost 5 generations apart. If you’re going for a really specific breeding project, it’s nice to know if breeding Dragon A will allow their offspring to breed with Dragon B, even if A and B can’t breed. I guess you could say that sort of breeding project is also a personal way to play the game or that it’s not intended, but it’s a part of the main breeding mechanics and isn’t just lore.

So I thought about this some more since my previous reply and as someone who breeds certain color combinations and has thrown too many dergs together in Foresee Progeny to find out they're related, but it doesn't tell me *how* many generations apart they are, so I have to dig to find out if, for example, I can't breed Jim and Jane, but maybe I can breed Jane and Joe (with Joe not being the exact colors but close enough in range that they might get the right combination), and then Jane and Joe's lucky right-colors offspring might be able to breed with Jim because it's now 5 generations apart, OR if that idea isn't going to work because Jim and Jane are closer up the generation tree and I'm looking at several generations of breeding projects, so maybe Jane's granddaughter can breed with Jim if I haven't sporked my own eyes out by then.

I really want to support a family tree within 5 generations only, BUT I can also see this as being abused and making it easier to harass players for exalting a dragon Unnamed or with a disliked name. "Hey, my kid's grandpa is named Sparklefart and I know he was in YOUR lair because you still have his mate." If you think people freak out now over Unnamed, people are gonna freak out over an entire tree of Unnamed, and Gigglewing, Butterball, [various ways people get around the censor] aren't better. So while from a breeding perspective I sympathize with wanting to find out how closely related two dragons are to know how much of a pain it's going to be to find Jim a mate, I'm not sure this is actually worth it for the trade-off.

There's also the fact that the purpose of exalting is, functionally, to clear data from the servers. It seems like the family tree thing, even if it's only up to 5 generations, is still going to cause a backlog of data and some clogging and site lag issues, and I think that causes a problem.

I'm still against renaming Unnamed exalts retroactively, whether the person who exalted them does it or the person who bred them does it. I *do* support a cosmetic toggle to one's own offspring list visible to the person who owns the dragon with the wonky offspring list, where it gives them a nickname only you can see, but I don't support that actually renaming Sparklefart to something else on the exalt pillar, again, this would only be visible to the person using the toggle on their own offspring list.

As was pointed out by someone else in another locked thread, this really isn't about Unnamed at its core, because people aren't having the same fits about Unnamed dragons in dead lairs, this is about "how dare you exalt my dragon" and the idea that one's very precious baby is someone else's fodder. This is about controlling other people's playstyles and bullying people who exalt. I'm not saying OP is trying to bully others, I want to take it on good faith that OP is not (OP's tone seems non-hostile), the problem is a lot of people who come into the Suggestions forums demanding that Unnamed exalts be banned or forcibly renamed do so in a very aggressive and hostile manner and then make the surprised Pikachu face when others reply in kind because we're sick of seeing this at least 4-5 times a month, sometimes 2-3 times a week.

What would be the most helpful of all is a clarification per TOS that once a dragon leaves your lair it is no longer yours and that means people can and will exalt Unnamed and can and will rename the dragon something you don't like, because even though it's already in the TOS it's not visible enough and not understood enough to a number of the playerbase, and what would also help is an official moratorium on the "no Unnamed exalts" threads on the Suggestions forum with a link to the clarified TOS. I'm not generally in favor of stifling discussion because I think even unpopular suggestions ought to be discussed to explain why such-and-such won't work (for example, I learned that most people actually like boss battles and I'm just a weirdo, so my suggestion for a boss-free venue wasn't well-received), but in this case, the constant, relentless "no Unnamed exalts" threads are getting to the point where I literally assume anyone making one is a troll looking for attention and a fight.