[quote name="Dakkokki" date="2021-10-13 10:36:38" ]
To this day, I am still irked about a quad amputee spiral accent I made that got rejected and promptly followed by "Never submit this accent again" because of 'suffering'
Like, idk about y'all, but amputees exist and not all of them are 'suffering'. I just wanted a dumb noodle. Was it the stitches that I included? Who knows, but there was zero blood in it.
[/quote]
Mmm, yeah, the idea that disabled lives are a tragedy is sure a thing in our world, and it’s a thing that’s… really not good for disabled people.
Reminded me of this quote (not sure where I originally saw it, but this time I pulled it from https://ew.com/movies/2017/04/14/star-wars-the-last-jedi-panel-video/ )
“Hamill speaks about the real life power of Star Wars, saying he met a little boy at a hospital who lost his arm to tuberculosis. “He said he wasn’t worried because Luke also lost his arm,” Hamill says.”
To this day, I am still irked about a quad amputee spiral accent I made that got rejected and promptly followed by "Never submit this accent again" because of 'suffering'
Like, idk about y'all, but amputees exist and not all of them are 'suffering'. I just wanted a dumb noodle. Was it the stitches that I included? Who knows, but there was zero blood in it.
Mmm, yeah, the idea that disabled lives are a tragedy is sure a thing in our world, and it’s a thing that’s… really not good for disabled people.
“Hamill speaks about the real life power of Star Wars, saying he met a little boy at a hospital who lost his arm to tuberculosis. “He said he wasn’t worried because Luke also lost his arm,” Hamill says.”
[quote name="Dakkokki" date="2021-10-13 10:36:38" ]
To this day, I am still irked about a quad amputee spiral accent I made that got rejected and promptly followed by "Never submit this accent again" because of 'suffering'
Like, idk about y'all, but amputees exist and not all of them are 'suffering'. I just wanted a dumb noodle. Was it the stitches that I included? Who knows, but there was zero blood in it.
I've spent hours and hours on skins just for them to be rejected because they're "suffering"
I specialize in body horror and just horror in general, but the willy-nilly rules make it hard to do any of what I like.
Being infected with pustules and fungi is far worse than any scratch or healing wound will ever be and yet those are allowed all the time.
Make it make sense, staff. Give us explicit guidelines as to what counts as "suffering"
[/quote]
this is just straight-up hurtful. i know several amputees irl and none of them are suffering. obviously the things that *caused* the amputations were painful but those are in the past and they are now living full happy lives.
so yes, +1000 to clarifications on what staff consider to be "suffering". and im sorry that happened to you.
To this day, I am still irked about a quad amputee spiral accent I made that got rejected and promptly followed by "Never submit this accent again" because of 'suffering'
Like, idk about y'all, but amputees exist and not all of them are 'suffering'. I just wanted a dumb noodle. Was it the stitches that I included? Who knows, but there was zero blood in it.
I've spent hours and hours on skins just for them to be rejected because they're "suffering"
I specialize in body horror and just horror in general, but the willy-nilly rules make it hard to do any of what I like.
Being infected with pustules and fungi is far worse than any scratch or healing wound will ever be and yet those are allowed all the time.
Make it make sense, staff. Give us explicit guidelines as to what counts as "suffering"
this is just straight-up hurtful. i know several amputees irl and none of them are suffering. obviously the things that *caused* the amputations were painful but those are in the past and they are now living full happy lives.
so yes, +1000 to clarifications on what staff consider to be "suffering". and im sorry that happened to you.
[quote name="@Niceless" date="2021-10-11 13:28:47" ]
[quote name="Requacy" date="2021-10-11 13:21:02" ]
[font=American Gothic][size=4]Alright, staff post just dropped. In all fairness, I do understand part of it, I really do. As someone who has researched games over the years and have heard about those in charge of either studying gore or moderating it. It's not fun and can wear down even the toughest person.
It is also not with precedent in other games. The original Zombie Pigman, now Zombie Piglin of Minecraft, had red blood before it was replaced with green goo. Looking for a source, it appears that Notch, the original developer of Minecraft, considered it too gory for his game.
[img]https://static.wikia.nocookie.net/minecraft_gamepedia/images/d/d9/Zombified_Piglin_JE1.png[/img]
However, this does not excuse the problem with red skins without [i]any resemblance [/i]to gore being flagged as violent or causing suffering. That is my biggest problem. This has nothing to do with muscle tissues or intestines or blood splatters. This has to do with innocent skins being tagged by association with a color. This is problem that needs to be resolved most urgently. Clarification beyond intention is needed. We need clarification about [i]what is allowed[/i] and [i]why the color red is flagged so often.[/i] If we know, then the path to peace can start.
So, without further ado, here is my proposed New and Improved skin rules about gore.
1. Red blood with medium [b](detailed tissues)[/b] or deep injuries [b](realistic, detailed muscle or organs visible)[/b] are not permitted.
2. [b]Blood without wounds and scratches with blood are okay. [/b]Cartoon (non-detailed or nonrealistic) wounds with blood are permitted. Non-red blood (oil, goo, honey, etc.) is permitted.
3. Realistic, exposed entrails with trauma (ripped, eviscerated, etc.) are not permitted. "X-ray" skins and cartoon gore (e.g. "candy" gore and cartoony musculature) are permitted.[b] Detail and realism are key.[/b]
4. [b]The color red is permitted.[/b] Red stars, lines, splashes, and more are all permitted. Skins and accents including the color are not permitted only if they violate one of the rules above. If a skin violates one of the rules, explanation will be given to resolve the issue while keeping the color.
5. [b]Other skin rules still apply.[/b]
If a censorship filter was added, I would loosen the rules even more. Specifically, I would excuse "medium" levels of gore. Ideally we would reach a point similar to the [url=https://artfight.net/info/gore]Art Fight Gore Rules[/url]. Extreme levels of gore would still not be allowed. As a fan of scariness, I like heavy gore. But this is not the website for that, and that's okay.
If anyone has any suggestions, just ping me!
[/quote]
I completely agree with almost all of this. My only vague concern is that rule 3 is too unspecific to be viable, since 'detail in realism' is completely subjective. However, people who go through with it anyways should know the risks they're taking, and should also know how to reduce detail and realism to make it more acceptable.
I could forgive everything if they stop ripping away Plague's signature color. You can't put a filter on an entire color. It leaves me fearful to even participate in the skin contest because I don't know if my design is going to be rejected because it had a few splashes of red tint on it, because red is a beautiful color and makes it look better. What am I supposed to do?
[/quote]
[font=American Gothic][size=4]Thanks for the critique! I was writing with the hope of visual examples would be added (if Staff ever adopted the new rules). However, I should still clarify them better, especially as a proposed suggestion.
-For Realism: How close does it look to real-life gore? Is it stylized? Does it look like something from a cartoon or something from Mortal Kombat? (Although, granted, some cartoons can be pretty gory.) Because this is closely connected to detail, I put this in rule 3 alongside detail.
-For Detail: Is the cut just red and shaded, or can you discern the detail of tissue and muscle underneath? Does it look like a cheap Halloween decoration (like candy gore), or does it look like a Hollywood-style prop? Candy gore typically lacks the detail associated with more extreme gore, which is why it is permitted.
Here is my hastily-made visual guide using Undel's previous works in Dragonart Evolution
Okay:
[img]https://i.imgur.com/N8Gz7zI.png[/img]
While there is blood, the source of the blood is not heavily detailed apart from a red scratch that the claws are digging into the skin.
[item=Runaway Rotclaw]
[item=Fiendflesh Forecallouses]
[img]https://i.imgur.com/ySRD37A.jpg[/img]
A classical "Zombie" skin (in the form of a Dragonlich). There is a red cut, some green goo, and exposed flesh, but none are heavily detailed and are lacking lines like in muscle tissue or exposed organs.
Not Okay:
[i][Image Description: A hexapod Dragonlich is crawling on the ground with long talons. It has large, bony horns and spikes on its head and neck. On its neck, shoulder, back, wing elbow, and lower jaw are exposed pink muscles. Its abdomen is cut open and bloody intestines are dripping out. Blood is dripping from the dragon's arm, mouth, and stomach, pooling on the ground.][/i]
Even though this is technically a zombie dragon (lich), it's still a bit much. There are pieces of raw, detailed, realistic muscles depicted on the neck and body. Conspicious amounts of blood dripping out are also present. Most importantly, though, the intestines are ripped out of the body and are exposed and dangerously close to dragging on the floor.
Mixed Area (Filter?):
[i][Image Description: The Dragonart mascot Dolosus as a decaying Dragonlich. He is a green wyvern paled from decay. Unlike the zombified version in the photo above, he has decayed even more. His skull is now visible, with a glowing orb replacing his eye in its socket. Muscles are exposed on his neck, wings, and jaw. Ribs are now exposed on his chest. He is saying "Brains?" in a zombie voice.][/i]
This Dragonlich would fall into a mixed area. While it does not have the blood and exposed organs of the former dragon, it still has pieces of raw muscle exposed in detail. A flagging/filter system might permit this one?
I also understand your pains. I really want to make skins, but I'm worried they will get rejected because of my horror leanings. [emoji=mirror sad size=1]
EDIT: Removed some of the images out of concern. Thanks @ Niceless for warning me!
Alright, staff post just dropped. In all fairness, I do understand part of it, I really do. As someone who has researched games over the years and have heard about those in charge of either studying gore or moderating it. It's not fun and can wear down even the toughest person.
It is also not with precedent in other games. The original Zombie Pigman, now Zombie Piglin of Minecraft, had red blood before it was replaced with green goo. Looking for a source, it appears that Notch, the original developer of Minecraft, considered it too gory for his game.
However, this does not excuse the problem with red skins without any resemblance to gore being flagged as violent or causing suffering. That is my biggest problem. This has nothing to do with muscle tissues or intestines or blood splatters. This has to do with innocent skins being tagged by association with a color. This is problem that needs to be resolved most urgently. Clarification beyond intention is needed. We need clarification about what is allowed and why the color red is flagged so often. If we know, then the path to peace can start.
So, without further ado, here is my proposed New and Improved skin rules about gore.
1. Red blood with medium (detailed tissues) or deep injuries (realistic, detailed muscle or organs visible) are not permitted.
2. Blood without wounds and scratches with blood are okay. Cartoon (non-detailed or nonrealistic) wounds with blood are permitted. Non-red blood (oil, goo, honey, etc.) is permitted.
3. Realistic, exposed entrails with trauma (ripped, eviscerated, etc.) are not permitted. "X-ray" skins and cartoon gore (e.g. "candy" gore and cartoony musculature) are permitted. Detail and realism are key.
4. The color red is permitted. Red stars, lines, splashes, and more are all permitted. Skins and accents including the color are not permitted only if they violate one of the rules above. If a skin violates one of the rules, explanation will be given to resolve the issue while keeping the color.
5. Other skin rules still apply.
If a censorship filter was added, I would loosen the rules even more. Specifically, I would excuse "medium" levels of gore. Ideally we would reach a point similar to the Art Fight Gore Rules. Extreme levels of gore would still not be allowed. As a fan of scariness, I like heavy gore. But this is not the website for that, and that's okay.
If anyone has any suggestions, just ping me!
I completely agree with almost all of this. My only vague concern is that rule 3 is too unspecific to be viable, since 'detail in realism' is completely subjective. However, people who go through with it anyways should know the risks they're taking, and should also know how to reduce detail and realism to make it more acceptable.
I could forgive everything if they stop ripping away Plague's signature color. You can't put a filter on an entire color. It leaves me fearful to even participate in the skin contest because I don't know if my design is going to be rejected because it had a few splashes of red tint on it, because red is a beautiful color and makes it look better. What am I supposed to do?
Thanks for the critique! I was writing with the hope of visual examples would be added (if Staff ever adopted the new rules). However, I should still clarify them better, especially as a proposed suggestion.
-For Realism: How close does it look to real-life gore? Is it stylized? Does it look like something from a cartoon or something from Mortal Kombat? (Although, granted, some cartoons can be pretty gory.) Because this is closely connected to detail, I put this in rule 3 alongside detail.
-For Detail: Is the cut just red and shaded, or can you discern the detail of tissue and muscle underneath? Does it look like a cheap Halloween decoration (like candy gore), or does it look like a Hollywood-style prop? Candy gore typically lacks the detail associated with more extreme gore, which is why it is permitted.
Here is my hastily-made visual guide using Undel's previous works in Dragonart Evolution
Okay:
While there is blood, the source of the blood is not heavily detailed apart from a red scratch that the claws are digging into the skin.
Runaway Rotclaw
Apparel
A parasitic companion, and your new best friend. (Riot of Rot 2014 Holiday Item)
0
Fiendflesh Forecallouses
Apparel
An unidentifiable growth of calcified muscle on the fore legs.
0
A classical "Zombie" skin (in the form of a Dragonlich). There is a red cut, some green goo, and exposed flesh, but none are heavily detailed and are lacking lines like in muscle tissue or exposed organs.
Not Okay:
[Image Description: A hexapod Dragonlich is crawling on the ground with long talons. It has large, bony horns and spikes on its head and neck. On its neck, shoulder, back, wing elbow, and lower jaw are exposed pink muscles. Its abdomen is cut open and bloody intestines are dripping out. Blood is dripping from the dragon's arm, mouth, and stomach, pooling on the ground.]
Even though this is technically a zombie dragon (lich), it's still a bit much. There are pieces of raw, detailed, realistic muscles depicted on the neck and body. Conspicious amounts of blood dripping out are also present. Most importantly, though, the intestines are ripped out of the body and are exposed and dangerously close to dragging on the floor.
Mixed Area (Filter?):
[Image Description: The Dragonart mascot Dolosus as a decaying Dragonlich. He is a green wyvern paled from decay. Unlike the zombified version in the photo above, he has decayed even more. His skull is now visible, with a glowing orb replacing his eye in its socket. Muscles are exposed on his neck, wings, and jaw. Ribs are now exposed on his chest. He is saying "Brains?" in a zombie voice.]
This Dragonlich would fall into a mixed area. While it does not have the blood and exposed organs of the former dragon, it still has pieces of raw muscle exposed in detail. A flagging/filter system might permit this one?
I also understand your pains. I really want to make skins, but I'm worried they will get rejected because of my horror leanings.
EDIT: Removed some of the images out of concern. Thanks @ Niceless for warning me!
Call me Requacy (Pinging Allowed!)(Note to self: Make art for signature)
[quote name="Kuroikumo" date="2021-10-13 11:31:41" ]
[quote name="Dakkokki" date="2021-10-13 10:36:38" ]
To this day, I am still irked about a quad amputee spiral accent I made that got rejected and promptly followed by "Never submit this accent again" because of 'suffering'
Like, idk about y'all, but amputees exist and not all of them are 'suffering'. I just wanted a dumb noodle. Was it the stitches that I included? Who knows, but there was zero blood in it.
I've spent hours and hours on skins just for them to be rejected because they're "suffering"
I specialize in body horror and just horror in general, but the willy-nilly rules make it hard to do any of what I like.
Being infected with pustules and fungi is far worse than any scratch or healing wound will ever be and yet those are allowed all the time.
Make it make sense, staff. Give us explicit guidelines as to what counts as "suffering"
[/quote]
this is just straight-up hurtful. i know several amputees irl and none of them are suffering. obviously the things that *caused* the amputations were painful but those are in the past and they are now living full happy lives.
so yes, +1000 to clarifications on what staff consider to be "suffering". and im sorry that happened to you.
[/quote]
Yeah, and aren’t there congenital amputees?? Who were just born missing limbs??? Like, as someone who is disabled, while not physically save for perhaps a hand tremor, it’s… not that good at all to immediately jump to the conclusion that a disabled person is suffering and is thus not allowed.
To this day, I am still irked about a quad amputee spiral accent I made that got rejected and promptly followed by "Never submit this accent again" because of 'suffering'
Like, idk about y'all, but amputees exist and not all of them are 'suffering'. I just wanted a dumb noodle. Was it the stitches that I included? Who knows, but there was zero blood in it.
I've spent hours and hours on skins just for them to be rejected because they're "suffering"
I specialize in body horror and just horror in general, but the willy-nilly rules make it hard to do any of what I like.
Being infected with pustules and fungi is far worse than any scratch or healing wound will ever be and yet those are allowed all the time.
Make it make sense, staff. Give us explicit guidelines as to what counts as "suffering"
this is just straight-up hurtful. i know several amputees irl and none of them are suffering. obviously the things that *caused* the amputations were painful but those are in the past and they are now living full happy lives.
so yes, +1000 to clarifications on what staff consider to be "suffering". and im sorry that happened to you.
Yeah, and aren’t there congenital amputees?? Who were just born missing limbs??? Like, as someone who is disabled, while not physically save for perhaps a hand tremor, it’s… not that good at all to immediately jump to the conclusion that a disabled person is suffering and is thus not allowed.
@Requacy Just popping in to say I'd be a tad careful posting those images, they might count as rule-breaking and could put the thread at risk.
@Requacy Just popping in to say I'd be a tad careful posting those images, they might count as rule-breaking and could put the thread at risk.
Also, you're welcome!
He/she/them
FR +3 Information+Wishlist+Art Shop! Aether adopts! My colorwheel project!
This is a reminder to be patient with new players in the suggestions forum if they post something commonly suggested! The forum search isn't particularly outstanding or obvious.
Plus, along with what counts as suffering needing to be re-evaluated, skin conditions do NOT equal ‘not suffering’. I live with eczema, and had it get really, REALLY bad (just about full body) a few years back. And trust me, when it comes to ‘just a skin condition’ I can say for certain that I was suffering far, FAR more than what the staff seem to think the level of suffering is for skin conditions. Eczema robs SLEEP from people. It robs EVERYDAY LIFE from people. I was extremely lucky that I had gotten medication when I did, because I was most definitely suffering. The thought that the pustules and rashes do not equal suffering is very incorrect.
I respect the staff, I do. I know their work is hard and I know they deal with a lot of stress. However, I do not respect their decisions on what does and does not count as suffering when what they believe to be rather mild can actually lower the quality of life for people by a huge, HUGE amount.
Not only do I agree with most of the sentiment on this thread, but I may also add that perhaps staff may want to ask people in real life who’ve dealt with what staff would consider what is ‘suffering’ and ‘not suffering’ to really get a good evaluation on what would actually fit into their rules.
Plus, along with what counts as suffering needing to be re-evaluated, skin conditions do NOT equal ‘not suffering’. I live with eczema, and had it get really, REALLY bad (just about full body) a few years back. And trust me, when it comes to ‘just a skin condition’ I can say for certain that I was suffering far, FAR more than what the staff seem to think the level of suffering is for skin conditions. Eczema robs SLEEP from people. It robs EVERYDAY LIFE from people. I was extremely lucky that I had gotten medication when I did, because I was most definitely suffering. The thought that the pustules and rashes do not equal suffering is very incorrect.
I respect the staff, I do. I know their work is hard and I know they deal with a lot of stress. However, I do not respect their decisions on what does and does not count as suffering when what they believe to be rather mild can actually lower the quality of life for people by a huge, HUGE amount.
Not only do I agree with most of the sentiment on this thread, but I may also add that perhaps staff may want to ask people in real life who’ve dealt with what staff would consider what is ‘suffering’ and ‘not suffering’ to really get a good evaluation on what would actually fit into their rules.
[quote name="@Niceless" date="2021-10-13 11:54:20" ]
@/Requacy Just popping in to say I'd be a tad careful posting those images, they might count as rule-breaking and could put the thread at risk.
Also, you're welcome!
[/quote][font=American Gothic][size=4]
Oops, didn't think about that. I'll put in image descriptions to replace them in a moment. Don't want to accidentally lock this thread a second time. Thank you for telling me.
@/Requacy Just popping in to say I'd be a tad careful posting those images, they might count as rule-breaking and could put the thread at risk.
Also, you're welcome!
Oops, didn't think about that. I'll put in image descriptions to replace them in a moment. Don't want to accidentally lock this thread a second time. Thank you for telling me.
Call me Requacy (Pinging Allowed!)(Note to self: Make art for signature)
@Requacy
A visual guide's a good idea, but yeah the mods might get mad at the usage of the lich image especially, even if it's undel's art. The zombies might be okay, but just in case they want you to replace it i already have a very censored version of the lich from a while ago to save you some time:
[img]https://64.media.tumblr.com/415fc0c7c1ad06ea28d2a1f8ab43dbd9/7fdf080574e29016-ce/s2048x3072/8b499e7738f45256da9006294467a980fe9382d4.png[/img]
I don't know how they'd be able to do a visual guide of what is and isn't allowed if they wouldn't be able to show something "too graphic" though...
I remember middle school me thought the lich here was the [i]coolest thing![/i]
A visual guide's a good idea, but yeah the mods might get mad at the usage of the lich image especially, even if it's undel's art. The zombies might be okay, but just in case they want you to replace it i already have a very censored version of the lich from a while ago to save you some time:
I don't know how they'd be able to do a visual guide of what is and isn't allowed if they wouldn't be able to show something "too graphic" though...
I remember middle school me thought the lich here was the coolest thing!
[quote name="SkralDrog" date="2021-10-13 12:29:23" ]
@Requacy
A visual guide's a good idea, but yeah the mods might get mad at the usage of the lich image especially, even if it's undel's art. The zombies might be okay, but just in case they want you to replace it i already have a very censored version of the lich from a while ago to save you some time:
[img]https://64.media.tumblr.com/415fc0c7c1ad06ea28d2a1f8ab43dbd9/7fdf080574e29016-ce/s2048x3072/8b499e7738f45256da9006294467a980fe9382d4.png[/img]
I don't know how they'd be able to do a visual guide of what is and isn't allowed if they wouldn't be able to show something "too graphic" though...
I remember middle school me thought the lich here was the [i]coolest thing![/i]
[/quote]
Okay, I ugly laughed at the censoring of the blood with bright neon green, you made the dragolitch a zombier zombie
A visual guide's a good idea, but yeah the mods might get mad at the usage of the lich image especially, even if it's undel's art. The zombies might be okay, but just in case they want you to replace it i already have a very censored version of the lich from a while ago to save you some time:
I don't know how they'd be able to do a visual guide of what is and isn't allowed if they wouldn't be able to show something "too graphic" though...
I remember middle school me thought the lich here was the coolest thing!
Okay, I ugly laughed at the censoring of the blood with bright neon green, you made the dragolitch a zombier zombie
[font=American Gothic][size=4]@SkralDrog
Thank you so much for the pic! It's really useful and lessens the chance of the thread getting locked again. The Lich was one of my favorites as well from the book! Guess I really am an edgelord [emoji=mirror tongue size=1]
For a visual guide... Maybe something like the ArtFight rules where it describes what's not allowed, and if you prefer you can open a filtered image to see an example?
Also- Not gonna lie- I did laugh at the neon blood. Makes "Neondragon art" a bit literal, haha!
Thank you so much for the pic! It's really useful and lessens the chance of the thread getting locked again. The Lich was one of my favorites as well from the book! Guess I really am an edgelord
For a visual guide... Maybe something like the ArtFight rules where it describes what's not allowed, and if you prefer you can open a filtered image to see an example?
Also- Not gonna lie- I did laugh at the neon blood. Makes "Neondragon art" a bit literal, haha!
Call me Requacy (Pinging Allowed!)(Note to self: Make art for signature)
