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TOPIC | Cut skin/accent makers slack.
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[quote name="Crowbar" date="2021-10-17 16:21:54" ] Wondering if the restrictions are as they are because of hosting or payment providers. Like restrictions on abuse against animals or humans probably don't consider fantasy violence. But there's loads of media that's worse so ?????? I'm just so curious why they are so stringent on user skins when we got so many examples of site-made stuff here. [/quote] To be honest, I am wondering this as well. It seems as if at one time they *were* going for a more lenient 'teen' rating, but at some point decided to go on the more strict 'teen' rating. Even many of the site examples are 'old' art (most probably except the genes/color combos which can't really be helped if you want a certain look.. they can't just take a certain color/gene combo and make it completely different to avoid looking like certain things), most of the new stuff isn't anywhere near like the older stuff.
Crowbar wrote on 2021-10-17 16:21:54:
Wondering if the restrictions are as they are because of hosting or payment providers. Like restrictions on abuse against animals or humans probably don't consider fantasy violence. But there's loads of media that's worse so ?????? I'm just so curious why they are so stringent on user skins when we got so many examples of site-made stuff here.
To be honest, I am wondering this as well.

It seems as if at one time they *were* going for a more lenient 'teen' rating, but at some point decided to go on the more strict 'teen' rating.

Even many of the site examples are 'old' art (most probably except the genes/color combos which can't really be helped if you want a certain look.. they can't just take a certain color/gene combo and make it completely different to avoid looking like certain things), most of the new stuff isn't anywhere near like the older stuff.

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[quote name="Crowbar" date="2021-10-17 16:21:54" ] Wondering if the restrictions are as they are because of hosting or payment providers. Like restrictions on abuse against animals or humans probably don't consider fantasy violence. But there's loads of media that's worse so ?????? I'm just so curious why they are so stringent on user skins when we got so many examples of site-made stuff here. [/quote] [color=#800000]I[/color][color=#7E0000]f[/color] [color=#7A0000]t[/color][color=#780000]h[/color][color=#770000]i[/color][color=#750000]s[/color] [color=#710000]i[/color][color=#700000]s[/color] [color=#6C0000]t[/color][color=#6A0000]h[/color][color=#690000]e[/color] [color=#650000]c[/color][color=#630000]a[/color][color=#620000]s[/color][color=#600000]e[/color] [color=#5C0000]t[/color][color=#5B0000]h[/color][color=#590000]e[/color][color=#570000]n[/color] [color=#540000]t[/color][color=#520000]h[/color][color=#500000]e[/color][color=#4E0000]y[/color] [color=#4B0000]s[/color][color=#490000]h[/color][color=#470000]o[/color][color=#460000]u[/color][color=#440000]l[/color][color=#420000]d[/color] [color=#3F0000]b[/color][color=#3D0000]e[/color] [color=#390000]h[/color][color=#380000]o[/color][color=#360000]n[/color][color=#340000]e[/color][color=#320000]s[/color][color=#310000]t[/color] [color=#2D0000]a[/color][color=#2B0000]n[/color][color=#2A0000]d[/color] [color=#260000]t[/color][color=#240000]e[/color][color=#230000]l[/color][color=#210000]l[/color] [color=#1D0000]u[/color][color=#1C0000]s[/color][color=#1A0000].[/color] [color=#160000]I[/color][color=#150000]'[/color][color=#130000]d[/color] [color=#0F0000]u[/color][color=#0E0000]n[/color][color=#0C0000]d[/color][color=#0A0000]e[/color][color=#080000]r[/color][color=#070000]s[/color][color=#050000]t[/color][color=#030000]a[/color][color=#010000]n[/color][color=#000000]d[/color] [color=#030000]t[/color][color=#050000]h[/color][color=#070000]e[/color] [color=#0A0000]r[/color][color=#0C0000]e[/color][color=#0E0000]s[/color][color=#0F0000]t[/color][color=#110000]r[/color][color=#130000]i[/color][color=#150000]c[/color][color=#160000]t[/color][color=#180000]i[/color][color=#1A0000]o[/color][color=#1C0000]n[/color][color=#1D0000]s[/color] [color=#210000]a[/color] [color=#240000]l[/color][color=#260000]o[/color][color=#280000]t[/color] [color=#2B0000]m[/color][color=#2D0000]o[/color][color=#2F0000]r[/color][color=#310000]e[/color] [color=#340000]i[/color][color=#360000]f[/color] [color=#390000]t[/color][color=#3B0000]h[/color][color=#3D0000]e[/color][color=#3F0000]y[/color] [color=#420000]w[/color][color=#440000]e[/color][color=#460000]r[/color][color=#470000]e[/color] [color=#4B0000]b[/color][color=#4D0000]e[/color][color=#4E0000]i[/color][color=#500000]n[/color][color=#520000]g[/color] [color=#550000]p[/color][color=#570000]r[/color][color=#590000]e[/color][color=#5B0000]s[/color][color=#5C0000]s[/color][color=#5E0000]u[/color][color=#600000]r[/color][color=#620000]e[/color][color=#630000]d[/color] [color=#670000]b[/color][color=#690000]y[/color] [color=#6C0000]a[/color] [color=#700000]3[/color][color=#710000]r[/color][color=#730000]d[/color] [color=#770000]p[/color][color=#780000]a[/color][color=#7A0000]r[/color][color=#7C0000]t[/color][color=#7E0000]y[/color][color=#800000].[/color]
Crowbar wrote on 2021-10-17 16:21:54:
Wondering if the restrictions are as they are because of hosting or payment providers. Like restrictions on abuse against animals or humans probably don't consider fantasy violence. But there's loads of media that's worse so ?????? I'm just so curious why they are so stringent on user skins when we got so many examples of site-made stuff here.
If this is the case then they should be honest and tell us. I'd understand the restrictions a lot more if they were being pressured by a 3rd party.
[quote name="Shirotsuki" date="2021-10-17 17:58:46" ] [quote name="Crowbar" date="2021-10-17 16:21:54" ] Wondering if the restrictions are as they are because of hosting or payment providers. Like restrictions on abuse against animals or humans probably don't consider fantasy violence. But there's loads of media that's worse so ?????? I'm just so curious why they are so stringent on user skins when we got so many examples of site-made stuff here. [/quote] [color=#800000]I[/color][color=#7E0000]f[/color] [color=#7A0000]t[/color][color=#780000]h[/color][color=#770000]i[/color][color=#750000]s[/color] [color=#710000]i[/color][color=#700000]s[/color] [color=#6C0000]t[/color][color=#6A0000]h[/color][color=#690000]e[/color] [color=#650000]c[/color][color=#630000]a[/color][color=#620000]s[/color][color=#600000]e[/color] [color=#5C0000]t[/color][color=#5B0000]h[/color][color=#590000]e[/color][color=#570000]n[/color] [color=#540000]t[/color][color=#520000]h[/color][color=#500000]e[/color][color=#4E0000]y[/color] [color=#4B0000]s[/color][color=#490000]h[/color][color=#470000]o[/color][color=#460000]u[/color][color=#440000]l[/color][color=#420000]d[/color] [color=#3F0000]b[/color][color=#3D0000]e[/color] [color=#390000]h[/color][color=#380000]o[/color][color=#360000]n[/color][color=#340000]e[/color][color=#320000]s[/color][color=#310000]t[/color] [color=#2D0000]a[/color][color=#2B0000]n[/color][color=#2A0000]d[/color] [color=#260000]t[/color][color=#240000]e[/color][color=#230000]l[/color][color=#210000]l[/color] [color=#1D0000]u[/color][color=#1C0000]s[/color][color=#1A0000].[/color] [color=#160000]I[/color][color=#150000]'[/color][color=#130000]d[/color] [color=#0F0000]u[/color][color=#0E0000]n[/color][color=#0C0000]d[/color][color=#0A0000]e[/color][color=#080000]r[/color][color=#070000]s[/color][color=#050000]t[/color][color=#030000]a[/color][color=#010000]n[/color][color=#000000]d[/color] [color=#030000]t[/color][color=#050000]h[/color][color=#070000]e[/color] [color=#0A0000]r[/color][color=#0C0000]e[/color][color=#0E0000]s[/color][color=#0F0000]t[/color][color=#110000]r[/color][color=#130000]i[/color][color=#150000]c[/color][color=#160000]t[/color][color=#180000]i[/color][color=#1A0000]o[/color][color=#1C0000]n[/color][color=#1D0000]s[/color] [color=#210000]a[/color] [color=#240000]l[/color][color=#260000]o[/color][color=#280000]t[/color] [color=#2B0000]m[/color][color=#2D0000]o[/color][color=#2F0000]r[/color][color=#310000]e[/color] [color=#340000]i[/color][color=#360000]f[/color] [color=#390000]t[/color][color=#3B0000]h[/color][color=#3D0000]e[/color][color=#3F0000]y[/color] [color=#420000]w[/color][color=#440000]e[/color][color=#460000]r[/color][color=#470000]e[/color] [color=#4B0000]b[/color][color=#4D0000]e[/color][color=#4E0000]i[/color][color=#500000]n[/color][color=#520000]g[/color] [color=#550000]p[/color][color=#570000]r[/color][color=#590000]e[/color][color=#5B0000]s[/color][color=#5C0000]s[/color][color=#5E0000]u[/color][color=#600000]r[/color][color=#620000]e[/color][color=#630000]d[/color] [color=#670000]b[/color][color=#690000]y[/color] [color=#6C0000]a[/color] [color=#700000]3[/color][color=#710000]r[/color][color=#730000]d[/color] [color=#770000]p[/color][color=#780000]a[/color][color=#7A0000]r[/color][color=#7C0000]t[/color][color=#7E0000]y[/color][color=#800000].[/color] [/quote] I was kind of thinking this but didn't really wanna question it further.
Shirotsuki wrote on 2021-10-17 17:58:46:
Crowbar wrote on 2021-10-17 16:21:54:
Wondering if the restrictions are as they are because of hosting or payment providers. Like restrictions on abuse against animals or humans probably don't consider fantasy violence. But there's loads of media that's worse so ?????? I'm just so curious why they are so stringent on user skins when we got so many examples of site-made stuff here.
If this is the case then they should be honest and tell us. I'd understand the restrictions a lot more if they were being pressured by a 3rd party.
I was kind of thinking this but didn't really wanna question it further.
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Written guidelines are a great idea because they avoid staff and users viewing explicit material. My only concern is that we'd run into the same problem we have now, where words are interpreted differently. Now, I'm not saying a visual guide needs to be explicit. But some illustrations help--and by those, I mean ones like one user mentioned a few pages back about a "pet a cat here" image, where it'd be a dragon silhouette with "these areas are okay to have blood." Visual images could also be basic color blocks with something like "red between this hex code and that hex code are not okay in conjunction with zombie skins." But words have their place too! For example, we all know that a skin covers 30% or more of the dragon's image and an accent is less. That is a very clearly defined rule, and not very open for various interpretations. The staff could use that as a sample when making their guide--something like "exposed muscles cannot cover more than 5% of the dragon's entire body" or maybe something like "extra eyes, exposed bones, and scars are acceptable. Hearts, lungs, and brains are fine as long as they don't take up more than 3% of the dragon's entire body. Intestines, livers, stomachs, and kidneys are not acceptable under any circumstances." (These are purely examples in all their forms.)

Of course, I'll repeat that in conjunction with clearer guidelines, it'd be wonderful if skins could get tags and users could filter them.
Written guidelines are a great idea because they avoid staff and users viewing explicit material. My only concern is that we'd run into the same problem we have now, where words are interpreted differently. Now, I'm not saying a visual guide needs to be explicit. But some illustrations help--and by those, I mean ones like one user mentioned a few pages back about a "pet a cat here" image, where it'd be a dragon silhouette with "these areas are okay to have blood." Visual images could also be basic color blocks with something like "red between this hex code and that hex code are not okay in conjunction with zombie skins." But words have their place too! For example, we all know that a skin covers 30% or more of the dragon's image and an accent is less. That is a very clearly defined rule, and not very open for various interpretations. The staff could use that as a sample when making their guide--something like "exposed muscles cannot cover more than 5% of the dragon's entire body" or maybe something like "extra eyes, exposed bones, and scars are acceptable. Hearts, lungs, and brains are fine as long as they don't take up more than 3% of the dragon's entire body. Intestines, livers, stomachs, and kidneys are not acceptable under any circumstances." (These are purely examples in all their forms.)

Of course, I'll repeat that in conjunction with clearer guidelines, it'd be wonderful if skins could get tags and users could filter them.
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[quote name="SpookyPuptarts" date="2021-10-16 22:21:12" ] On the subject of what constitutes suffering, while I'm looking at them, [item=Frigid Fugitive Shackles][item=Icicle Chains] So I guess ice flights allowed to torture people, and we're allowed to visually depict that (skin freezing hurts. I know. It gets cold where I live.) I know that the frigid fugitive shackles are from before the rule rewrite, but the icicle chains aren't. Looked into ice more and there's a winning skin from 2017 depicting what is implied to be purposefully inflicted frostbite (on the hands and feet, and considering the name.), [skin=21136] I guess this is kind of in line with "just because its not red doesn't mean its not suffering, so suffering is a weird guideline" argument. [/quote] This is a very good point I hadn't even considered. There are lots of depictions of suffering in items/accents/lore. Feels like staff is desperately trying to justify the skin guidelines but... it just doesn't add up when you have skins and apparel of dragons being partially frozen alive and shackled up with chains, but 'red' is explicitly not allowed? Very confused to say at the least. I don't think anyone here is arguing for 'bloody entrails and corpses' to be allowed in accents. We just want consistent guidelines that actually make sense
SpookyPuptarts wrote on 2021-10-16 22:21:12:
On the subject of what constitutes suffering, while I'm looking at them,



So I guess ice flights allowed to torture people, and we're allowed to visually depict that (skin freezing hurts. I know. It gets cold where I live.)

I know that the frigid fugitive shackles are from before the rule rewrite, but the icicle chains aren't.

Looked into ice more and there's a winning skin from 2017 depicting what is implied to be purposefully inflicted frostbite (on the hands and feet, and considering the name.),


I guess this is kind of in line with "just because its not red doesn't mean its not suffering, so suffering is a weird guideline" argument.

This is a very good point I hadn't even considered.
There are lots of depictions of suffering in items/accents/lore. Feels like staff is desperately trying to justify the skin guidelines but... it just doesn't add up when you have skins and apparel of dragons being partially frozen alive and shackled up with chains, but 'red' is explicitly not allowed? Very confused to say at the least.

I don't think anyone here is arguing for 'bloody entrails and corpses' to be allowed in accents. We just want consistent guidelines that actually make sense
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the blood vs pus/boils/other diseased looks
confuse me greatly because like. I rather the
little bits of blood, as the green pus bits that
a lot of plague stuff has looks SO much worse
and gross. it's a weird double standard when
it comes to depicting suffering
the blood vs pus/boils/other diseased looks
confuse me greatly because like. I rather the
little bits of blood, as the green pus bits that
a lot of plague stuff has looks SO much worse
and gross. it's a weird double standard when
it comes to depicting suffering
Actually most of fest aesthetic looks like suffer.
Is it frozen? Or ignite to fire alive? Or plants grows from skin? Or skin turned into rock? Or dragon drowned? Of filled with insrcts? And so on.
Definitely rules must be clear.
And I support visual guide to avoid misinterpretation. Just hide "unallowed" under cut. Thus only those who reag guid and still need more info could open it by their will.
Actually most of fest aesthetic looks like suffer.
Is it frozen? Or ignite to fire alive? Or plants grows from skin? Or skin turned into rock? Or dragon drowned? Of filled with insrcts? And so on.
Definitely rules must be clear.
And I support visual guide to avoid misinterpretation. Just hide "unallowed" under cut. Thus only those who reag guid and still need more info could open it by their will.
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[quote name="Kuroikumo" date="2021-10-17 09:19:16" ] [quote name="Apocalyptichorse" date="2021-10-17 03:17:43" ] If we do get a visual guide it might be a good idea if we are given examples made by the staff themselves or offered by volunteers, only downside would be folks who aren’t into gore might end up getting triggered by the examples [/quote] this is why i really think it'd be best if the guide was just written, but written very clearly. i don't know if it's the best idea to explicitly [i]show[/i] the kind of stuff that they aren't allowing. i think they could get the message across if they just communicated it very clearly in writing. [/quote] People who are squeamish re: blood and gore probably aren’t the ones who will be needing to look at a guide. I think a visual guide with written description is absolutely needed because some people interpret visual information better, and it’s for visuals in the end. This kind of content guide should be on its own page and clearly marked to avoid the wrong users accidentally getting a peek.
Kuroikumo wrote on 2021-10-17 09:19:16:
Apocalyptichorse wrote on 2021-10-17 03:17:43:
If we do get a visual guide it might be a good idea if we are given examples made by the staff themselves or offered by volunteers, only downside would be folks who aren’t into gore might end up getting triggered by the examples

this is why i really think it'd be best if the guide was just written, but written very clearly. i don't know if it's the best idea to explicitly show the kind of stuff that they aren't allowing. i think they could get the message across if they just communicated it very clearly in writing.

People who are squeamish re: blood and gore probably aren’t the ones who will be needing to look at a guide. I think a visual guide with written description is absolutely needed because some people interpret visual information better, and it’s for visuals in the end. This kind of content guide should be on its own page and clearly marked to avoid the wrong users accidentally getting a peek.
v9O7jGU.png tiny text isn't aesthetic, it's inaccessible.
They could easily do a guide the way I have seen people do guides with lots of pictures.

Guideline for gore:

1. Minor cuts allowed. Example Images: AllowedImage1Link AllowedImage2link NotallowedImage1Link NotallowedImage2link.

(pretend those are links to images). Players who just want to see the guidelines get a textual guide, while those who want to get more specific, or want to see more 'concrete' guides can look at the images.

The rest of the guide would continue with a couple of allowed examples of what they mean, and then a couple of examples of what is 'going too far'.
They could easily do a guide the way I have seen people do guides with lots of pictures.

Guideline for gore:

1. Minor cuts allowed. Example Images: AllowedImage1Link AllowedImage2link NotallowedImage1Link NotallowedImage2link.

(pretend those are links to images). Players who just want to see the guidelines get a textual guide, while those who want to get more specific, or want to see more 'concrete' guides can look at the images.

The rest of the guide would continue with a couple of allowed examples of what they mean, and then a couple of examples of what is 'going too far'.

#UnnamedIsValid
Let them Fight
Let them Serve the Deities
Let them Exist in peace!
Dragons needed --->
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Breed Characteristic Apparel!

Cuckoo Breed and Mutations!

Change Unnamed in YOUR dragon's profile!
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I don’t really see the benefit of focusing on the word ’suffering’ to argue about the depictions that are/are not allowed. The exact wording in skin and accent rules is (emphasis mine): [quote] We do not allow skin designs that depict creatures that appear to be [b]suffering from massive wounds[/b] and/or designs that contain excessive gore. Scars, light wounds, and blood splatter are generally okay.[/quote] It’s not suffering in general, the line is drawn at wounds and gore specifically, and if that is the baseline the staff has decided to set, then that is what it is. What is needed isn’t, imho, a consistent rule for all depictions of implied suffering, but a clarification on what the staff considers ”excessive gore” and just exactly what is meant by some depictions being ”generally okay” when in reality even light wounds can get turned down, and what is the ruling on things that are not blood/gore but can be interpreted as such.
I don’t really see the benefit of focusing on the word ’suffering’ to argue about the depictions that are/are not allowed. The exact wording in skin and accent rules is (emphasis mine):
Quote:
We do not allow skin designs that depict creatures that appear to be suffering from massive wounds and/or designs that contain excessive gore. Scars, light wounds, and blood splatter are generally okay.

It’s not suffering in general, the line is drawn at wounds and gore specifically, and if that is the baseline the staff has decided to set, then that is what it is. What is needed isn’t, imho, a consistent rule for all depictions of implied suffering, but a clarification on what the staff considers ”excessive gore” and just exactly what is meant by some depictions being ”generally okay” when in reality even light wounds can get turned down, and what is the ruling on things that are not blood/gore but can be interpreted as such.
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