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[quote name="Lyuna" date="2024-01-29 03:15:31" ] @/Contaminate (avoiding a ping to hopefully not bother you quite as much, hope that's okay) Regarding your comment: "no one has supplied any actual reason that these items - explicitly offered as thanks for a specific contribution toward the site's growth - should be available to everyone just because they want it. " This threads existence is an answer to it. The reason is that players want it. Games are meant to be fun, and yet there are many people who do not find enjoyment in feeling that these items are inaccessible. You may not agree with their reason for disappointment being valid, but their disappointment does exist, and that is undeniable. Video games are distinct from reality. In the real world just wanting something isn't a valid excuse to justify why you deserve it, as there are limitations on the number of physical objects and an entire world filled with other people who also may deserve that thing. But video games differ, and their limitations are controllable by the developers. If players feel something is only fair to be accessible to a wider portion of the user base then they are well within their right to express this. Games have made changes for this reason in the past. It was essentially the reason that eye vials were introduced. Limitations in games should, ideally, be made to ensure the game as an economy and items have a sense of worth and a feeling of accomplishment when obtained. When limitations are so extreme they are creating an unfun experience for players rather than a fun one, this is reason enough to make a change. There are players who would like their progens to be Imperials. There are players who have a lore reason to want KS familiars. There are players who are G1 only lairs who would like Imperials. All of these things are unavailable. These are several, different reasons that could apply to people with vastly different play styles, why someone may want to someday obtain a KS item. Sure, in reality there may be things you want you will never be able to obtain, but there is no reason that video games should be as disappointing as reality. Additionally, you yourself stated that items should have continued retiring. And, in a sense, I agree with you. The worst part about KS items is not simply their value alone, but the fact nothing else on the site comes even remotely close to them. The most valuable item you might pick up from Joxbox is probably going to earn you about 5kg at most. However, I would argue it is this very statement itself that aids in arguing for the unretiring of KS items. A site can function with a healthy economy either by retiring items at a gradual pace, allowing items to develop value, or by never retiring any items, keeping them all at roughly the same value (as evidenced by FR's economy when we ignore the existence of KS and Y1 fest items) The site cannot recuperate from its choice to never retire items by keeping KS and Y1 fest items retired, but but it can balance the price of these items in comparison to the newer ones by deciding to unretire every item going forward. FR's system of never truly retiring items has drawn in a playerbase who enjoy the contrast this provides to other petsite. Is it any surprise that several players feel this systems should be extended to all items in the game? As for these items being a gift to a specific group of people. Let's say that KS items were unretired, but the manner in which they were obtained was still incredibly rare. Would not the KS backers still have an advantage in this situation? They may no longer exclusively have these items (which, due to trading, these items technically aren't even exclusive anymore) but they still have them, which even after unretiring them could still be incredibly difficult to obtain. [/quote] This. I have been trying to figure out what it was about this site that kept losing my interest, despite my love for the art and the ability to have bios, lore, matching familiars, etc. And, as it turns out, this comment perfectly encapsulates the reason behind my increasing boredom here as a newer player (2 years). The economy here is largely flat. Not stable in a traditional sense, just flat. I have worked on reaching goals here since I started and I've either a) already reached them because everything is relatively cheap or b) will never be able to because nothing available on the market is worth enough to even scratch the surface of saving up for a G1 Imp or something similar. I understand the reason why people think it is unfair to rerelease Kickstarter rewards, but I also understand that by not doing so and not steadily retiring other things on the site (dragon scrolls, especially--when measured against the KS scrolls), you wind up with a flat economy. Now, I also acknowledge that I have a LONG history of playing on sites with retiring items. I enjoy that sort of challenge. I enjoy the fact that being on those sites long equates to having more wealth (both in site currency and items). I enjoy the fact that having things retire means that some people who have been there longer have missed items here and there, and that those recently retired items then become tradeable for something that retired a year ago. Flight Rising is a different culture than I'm used to. I acknowledge that. But this game would be so much more fun if the top goals could be reached and if the top goals increased in number over time. By which, I mean that KS items were rereleased through an extremely hard to get/limited method and that other items were released in a similar method (think Blossom) in order to slowly balance out the economy a bit. I won't argue for permanently retiring items here because that isn't the idea this site was built around, but that is precisely what makes it so weird that KS items haven't been rereleased in any form. It's bizarre to both be told that things won't permanently retire because the player base should always have access to them AND to be told that KS items will never come out of retirement (even briefly), no matter what the userbase requests because it would be unfair and disrupt the economy ten years on. The KS items have, to a degree, created a group of players with functionally unlimited wealth (because there's nothing worth the items released in KS) and the lack of regularly, fully retiring items means that there is no bridge between new players and that group. There's nothing wrong with being rich on a game. There's nothing wrong with having rare items on a game. But there is something bizarre about never being able to climb effectively. I personally support KS items being added back into the site through difficult to achieve means, but also not through gambling. However, if the KS items are never reintroduced to the site, that's fine and understandable. But, at that rate, if FR really wants to both keep players and encourage new players to join, then working on improving how the economy works would be for the best.

It's really interesting how the same discussion about retired items is raised in both fandom communities I am in. Similar theme is spoken about in World of Warcraft community, as devs decided to bring retired mounts in Trading Post.

To make it clear for those who are not familiar with Warcraft to connect it with FR, I would like to tell some prelude.

There is a group of achievements in WoW called Feats of Strength, and they are given for something really extraordinary, for really great and difficult achievements and are not seen until you get one. And there are achievements called Ahead of the Curve which are given for defeating the last boss of the last raid before the next expansion comes in. For this achievement rare mounts are always given for limited time, and when the next expansion is here, the achievement and the mount are no longer available.
So devs decided to give these mounts again.

There are lots of points of view on this situation, but majority of the players, even those with Ahead of the Curve achievement are fully for returning the retired mounts. The main achievement is that fact that you did it. You was so cool and so well prepared and you were the best of the best among players to defeat that boss. And everyone will see it when looking through your achievements and seeing "Oh they were back there during this expac and they did it, so cool". Because you won't ride the same mount for 10 years just to show that you did it, you don't need, because people will see your achievement anyway and you are free to ride even the most available mount in the game just because you like it and it fits your character lore. But for other people who collects mounts such returning the retired will help them to expand their collection and get the mount their lore character actually need. They won't get the achievement for defeating the boss, but they will just get the mount they need, and for them the mount is really important.

What does it all have to do with Flight Rising? The greatest achievement of KS Backers is not having Skycat or other KS items. The greatest achievement of KS Backers in Flight Rising is to be the ones who helped Flight Rising open its wings and take flight. Some of them are still around while others are not, because of life stuff, because 11 years is really massive amount of time with lots of events in everyone's lifetimes and the game is not the most important thing there.

But it's not just KS Backers who keep Flight Rising alive. Common players also do it. Commom players play it. Common players make fan-art dedicated to Flight Rising. And commom players tell more people about Flight Rising. Some players make all this useful guides to help other players (Thank you!). Some players drew all this gorgeous banners\arts\skins-accents which now make lair and dragons so unique and magnificient (Thank you!). Some players help each other with projects and organize some really unforgettable events with lots of dedication and passion and make days brighter (Thank you!).

So it would be a really nice addition to Achievement shop to add. It would cost a lot, I am sure, and it deserve to cost a lot in Achievement Shop to work a lot for it, but it would be a really nice reward not only for KS-Backers to have back or have more, but for other players too to get it for keeping this game alive for so much years. It would be a really nice reward for all of players of Flight Rising.

Same as spelltag said... I feel like the people who spent literally hundreds of thousands of gems go get a kickstarter item would be kinda peeved that other people could get them with barely any effort. But, I do think it would be cool to add recolours of the kickstarter fams/apparel to the achievements shop. That would let people who originally backed or saved up for years for kickstarter items to not feel cheated, but would also let newer players get substitutes that are very similar to those items (maybe even 'better' depending on if the recolours fit a plan they have).

Imp scrolls are a whole other can of worms though...

"that other people could get them with barely any effort"

As someone who dipped their toes in suggestions like this, and the topic of elitism has come up, this is what we mean when we say someone is being elitist. Because nobody is asking for free hand outs, and saying "Well just save up for it" is pointless because it's not always doable.

It would be more feaseble if the items were stagnant, but that's the issue they aren't. I bought a nature sprite for 800 or so gems years ago, but they aren't being sold for that price anymore. Anyone who wants to buy one now, has to put WAY more effort into it than I had to.

I also remember people wanting a special mark on dragons who hatched with special eyes vs those who got them from a vial because "50k is far to easy to get"

Just because 50K treasure is easy for you (general you) is easy to get, doesn't mean it is easy for everyone to do that. And that applies all over the board

KS item aren't really a 'long term goal' because they're not stagnant, so any suggestion to actually make them long term goals is fine by me.

I really am only intrested in the hornhelm, but I still hope the staff will add more horned skull apparel in the future, I just want to put horned skulls on my dragons, I know I can achieve similar effects combining apparel items but it'd be nice not needing to sacrifice two or three apparel slots to do so

As a KS backer I fully support re-releasing KS items in a particularly hard-to-get way (roundsey seems to have some inherent issues, but I like the idea of having them as a particularly pricey achievement shop item, especially since that drives daily engagement.) Honestly it feels somewhat stressful to be considered 'elite' because I just happened to be around, know about the KS, and had cash to spend on it during that /one month, ten years ago/ that it was open. I don't even know how I'd go about selling something off if I really wanted to, because I'd love to make some dragon cash but it's SO intimidating to even consider opening that up as an option considering how much of a mess it can cause, and I absolutely don't want someone to spend thousands of dollars of real-life money for a single digital item on a petsite. It feels scummy.

I get that this is a topic that's been re-hashed for ages, and staff may never change their opinion on it, but I feel like it's completely fair to reintroduce retired items in very limited ways, and from a personal standpoint it would take some pressure off having and potentially selling KS items :')

Support.
Apologies for being late to the party. I don't usually lurk this forum. A friend sent the link since they know I collect familiars.

Recolors are all fine and dandy (the more, the merrier!), but when you want one of each familiar, you're still missing the original kickstarter familiars even with the recolors. And is Boolean considered a kickstarter familiar? Is Boolean part of this discussion? Am I opening up a different can of worms? Because, yes, I'd like Boolean added to this. I want one of each. You hoard what you want; I want all of the familiars!

So I am missing 5 familiars. Reading through, people saying that 1k-2k achievement tokens per kickstarter item/dragon/familiar is too low... I assume there are other familiar collectors like me wanting the 5 of them. After I buy the ones I can afford with my tokens, I'm still going to have to play a lot to be able to afford the rest of them. I spent a year earning enough to buy a Light Sprite (and now they're almost double?). A year's effort sounds reasonable to me.

As for the developers saying they'd never do it... I do believe decisions should be re-evaluated periodically. Maybe it was the right decision then. Maybe it's not the right decision now. Nothing says "Grumpy old man" like "It's always been this way!"

[quote name="friendlycoffee" date="2024-02-02 17:12:03" ] Same as spelltag said... I feel like the people who spent literally hundreds of thousands of gems go get a kickstarter item would be kinda peeved that other people could get them with barely any effort. [/quote] Why not be as concerned about the people who might feel the opposite? I don't have any KS items. But I do have several Y1 items, and I can say without hesitation that I would not be "peeved" if someone got to have these items I enjoy with less effort than I put it. I [i]am[/i] peeved that people today have to put in more than double the effort that I did for these items. More than peeved, actually. I'm disgusted. I am sure I would think the same if I'd spent $30 on any of these items ten years ago.