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[center][size=6][b]Auraboa Alterations[/b][/size] [quote]"I sing with the stars. I dance with the galaxies. I share in the joy-and in the grief."[/quote][/center] So, it's no secret that the current lore for the Auraboa is a bit problematic, at least as of ~9:00 AM Pacific time, December 6th, 2023. I have an idea for how we can fix that, so please, bear with me, lovers of Nature in all it's wild and wonderful forms! [center][size=5][b]Salvaging Time[/b][/size][/center] [quote]"The Observants look at time like they are watching a parade: one thing after another, passing by in sequence right in front of them. I see the parade from above - all the twists and turns it might, or might not, take."[/quote] So far, what we know of Auraboa in terms of lore is that [i]they perceive time in a nonlinear fashion[/i], and my biggest question for the FR Lore Devs is: [b]If they perceive time in a nonlinear fashion, then [i]why[/i] do they not have the ability to see alternate realities both backwards, and more importantly, [i]forwards[/i]?![/b] The addition of being able to see the future, albeit in potential futures, would definitely add to their "alien" nature, [i]while shifting the locus of power to the hands of the Auraboa in nearly every interaction they have with an outsider dragon[/i]--at least, in regards to the elder Auraboas, who are always in the Loop, and thusly can foresee what could happen if they ever engage in a conversation, fight, etc., you get the picture. Also note, they may [i]never[/i] have had a need to talk verbally in the "canon" timeline before now, but all would be articulate and wise because of the alternate timelines where they learned languages and skills as "normal" bleeding into their "canon" selves, as when one oversees a piece of knowledge enough, one tends to pick up on it. This only applies to the ones who are constantly in the loop, however, and thus, there may have been a significant shift when they realized they were on the timeline where they needed to prepare for their future children to be sent out into the world as [i]envoys.[/i] And yes, this is the solution I'm proposing: the Elder, Loop-bound Auraboas sent their unhatched eggs from the clutch that was destined to be different to Galore, so that the Guardian would distribute them among worthy clans to raise the new hatchling Auraboas in a caring environment during the day, [i]while the new Hatchlings would bond with their biological families when they rejoin the Loop upon sleeping for the night.[/i] In this way, no cultural traditions unique to the Auraboas are being lost, and the hatchlings can chose to share the culture of the Auraboas with their waking families...or not! It's up for them, and their eventual offspring and mates to decide. And it's as it should be: in the hands of the original culture, in this case, the unique and decidedly alien culture of the Auraboas. ...as for what Cultural Traditions Auraboas have, I suspect there would be celebrations in the Loop when significant events come to pass in the real world that benefit something the Auraboas like, or something actually happened that the Auraboas wanted to see happen. It would likely vary in style from family to family, to maximize customization. Anyways, I really hope that this helps inspire anyone who was on the fence about liking Auraboas, and best case scenario, might inspire FR Staff themselves. [emoji=auraboa star size=1] ----- [size=1][b]Quotes Used:[/b] [i]1 = A Wind in the Door (Book) 2 = Clockwork (Danny Phantom Character)[/i][/size] [size=2][b]Edits:[/b] [i]1 = Fixed some wording that was causing distress in readers. 1 = Fixed a typo.[/i][/size]

Non-linear doesn't mean ability to see past/future. It just means they don't have the standard western linear perception. Plenty of cultures consider time cyclical, and some have no concept of time at all.

It reads to me as.a collective memory that doesn't consider e.g. last summer to be a different one to the one 50 years ago. Getting into foresight etc is a whole different shebang to anything that's been mentioned in the lore.

The idea that it's hot garbage is not a universal one either. To me and plenty others it's just badly explained/edited which results in unintended parallels with RL issues.

@Vendrus

I apologize. I was primarily basing it off of the concept that they experienced time entirely differently from other dragons, and I can see my interpretation clashing with the more grounded interpretations of their experiences.

Truth be told I hadn't even considered them to be mundane in function in regards to time due to the FR Devs saying that they wanted to make them "Alien" in their clarifications, which, to me, is utterly impossible to do with any Human-Earth culture's interpretation of time. Or any non-fantastical/not-magically-augmented interpretation of time, really.

One of the big things for me is that if Humans can reasonably do it without issues in the real world, it probably shouldn't be the basis for the thing that makes a species of dragon so different from other dragons. This is because, on the one hand, it makes for representation, sure, but it mostly just Others people a lot. Their (thing)--a cultural interpretation of time, in this case--has been reduced to a "cool species identifier: (thing)" and that, as someone who's been a victim of marginalization through similar stuff before, (Autism and ADHD are big targets for this sort of coding-adjacent nastiness) I can say that going "further out there" in terms of trying to make anything that's described as "Alien" is really important.

So yeah, in summary: Sorry if I came across as being rude or forceful, but my opinions are this way for a reason, and that reason is that I don't think the FR Devs would create a species with a human-based perspective on time and call that perspective Alien in the same breath.

I find it very unfair to call the current lore "hot garbage". Especially after the admins have already said they heard the community's concerns and are working on updating the lore.
The have posted an update as well, informing us that they are still working on it.

So posting a thread about how it hasn't been updated yet, is neither helpful nor productive. This thread makes it seem like you just wanted to jump on the "the lore is bad" bandwagon, without even understanding why, just to farm some engagement.

@Morowa

If my phrasing is so distressing I will remove it. I want to clarify that I was attempting to be casual, and not try to devalue to the work of the developers. I will not lie, though, I am very frustrated with the original lore. I get that I am obviously not in the majority here so far, however, despite this, I will not remove the entire post. I like what I have written. I want it to stay up.

@Tithe
I think you're taking this out of context as well:
"scifi-alien mindset with an innate mental link and a different perception of time"

The vast majority of aliens in sci-fi are understandable and relatable to humans - human analogues with quirks. Some of those quirks are pretty major, but claiming that they can't overlap with actual human cultures while being sci fi alien-like is very off base.

Not to mention, staff aren't saying they're actual aliens. At no point in their canon lore or description are they called alien. That's just the source of the inspiration for their mindset.

EDIT:
On a related note, none of this seems like it'll fix the issues I've seen brought up - that the visiting dragon feels white-savioury and condescending, and that it seems like the children are being taken away to be part of another culture at the end (rl colonisation/cultural genocide mirroring). More explanation of the loop is great, and judging from the last update we're getting it, but they're also reworking the ending and getting it reviewed as well which is the really important bit.

I’m on the fence here as I like some concepts but I disagree with other parts because Boas don’t have foresight. They just share a sort of collective memory/hivemind. They see time as nonlinear in the Loop because they share their memories but not actually the same consciousness. They don’t have the context of each memory such as it’s exact time which is why they don’t really perceive time.

(Am I one of the few people who didn’t think it was problematic? Am I wrong for that? I thought the same about the BCOTC retcon this time last year.)

I always interpreted the auraboa's interpretation of time to be like an expanding sphere rather than a point on a line. From what I gathered from the lore, they essentially experienced all of their past at the same time as the present, but were not able to access the future simply because the future doesn't exist until it happens (hence the expanding part).

I also think the issues with the auraboa's lore came more from the somewhat colonialist themes; the premise behind their experience of non-linear time is cool imo, it's just the issues with them being infantalised/treated as a joke for this and the separation of their kids from their culture being viewed as a positive, 'englightning' thing as far as I understand it. I think the speech thing could easily be fixed easily by making them eloquent, just not used to speaking aloud (surely their collective memories have a lot of hearing other dragons speak if not them learning it directly themselves), so they could perhaps just sound very croaky like someone who hasn't spoken in ages normally might. The other issues I think will take a bit more effort to sort, but that's why FR is putting their new draft through a proper review this time before it gets updated.

[quote name="Allstohel" date="2023-12-06 12:07:41" ] I always interpreted the auraboa's interpretation of time to be like an expanding sphere rather than a point on a line. From what I gathered from the lore, they essentially experienced all of their past at the same time as the present, but were not able to access the future simply because the future doesn't exist until it happens (hence the expanding part). I also think the issues with the auraboa's lore came more from the somewhat colonialist themes; the premise behind their experience of non-linear time is cool imo, it's just the issues with them being infantalised/treated as a joke for this and the separation of their kids from their culture being viewed as a positive, 'englightning' thing as far as I understand it. I think the speech thing could easily be fixed easily by making them eloquent, just not used to speaking aloud (surely their collective memories have a lot of hearing other dragons speak if not them learning it directly themselves), so they could perhaps just sound very croaky like someone who hasn't spoken in ages normally might. The other issues I think will take a bit more effort to sort, but that's why FR is putting their new draft through a proper review this time before it gets updated. [/quote] iirc the devs in their update post(s) do clarify that the speech thing is an issue of unfamiliarity with speaking aloud, and when they're speaking within the loop they are eloquent and speak much more normally, it's only verbal speech with outsiders that they're having difficulty with because they're basically 'translating' themselves into verbal speech. that said yeah, i think probably best to wait and see what clarifications and edits they give us to the story and lore before we offer any more feedback to see how they fix things. it sounds like they did have a less... problematic version originally but edits and cuts took away parts that would have made things feel less white savior complex-y so bringing those bits back may fix the problems.

I don't think there's really any problem with the Auraboa story. Besides that, like... it's not particularly well-written? I read it when it was first released and I'm not gonna read it again.

The easiest way to fix the problem with the story would be to include an Auraboa point of view. That's it. Nothing else would have to change. It would fix all the problems if we could see why they're doing the things they're doing. Even if all Auraboas aren't incredibly eloquent and intelligent, we could see from the eyes of one that is. Everything from speaking, to their concerns surrounding biological necessities, and how they treat their children. Whatever they were planning with the Loop, how they view time, everything else doesn't matter and is window-dressing. And I would prefer they not change these things away from whatever the vision was at the first. I just think their original vision was lost to some absurd limitation of word-count.

Anyways, judging from other fictional sources whose stories and themes have and continue to go over just fine (except, perhaps, the audience of FR is much more... focused) because it doesn't matter how a story begins as much as it matters how a story ends. Of course, this can be viewed as an opinion - and one that the staff and most users don't share.

It still stands that an Auraboa POV is the only thing we need to understand what's going on. In fact, I think every Ancient introduction should be from the Ancient's POV. Because these Ancients are being introduced to our lairs in such a way where they become part of us. We are the POV of the Wildclaw - we don't need to know how we think of the Auraboas. We need to know how the Auraboa thinks of us.