It's been a while since I read the book with that scene in it, but from what I remember it was a lot less... 'one sided' is a good euphemism.
You can argue that book!Jaime is an unreliable narrator due to his emotional state (which he most likely is). But the fact remains that in the books, the incident was overtly shown with them both agreeing to what they did, even if Cercei had her misgivings at first. Anything beyond that is speculation.
In the show it's very clearly 'one-sided', and someone made the choice to film it that way. At best, it's lazy writing of the 'look how grimdark we are' variety. At worst, someone just plain disliked Cercei.
It's been a while since I read the book with that scene in it, but from what I remember it was a lot less... 'one sided' is a good euphemism.
You can argue that book!Jaime is an unreliable narrator due to his emotional state (which he most likely is). But the fact remains that in the books, the incident was overtly shown with them both agreeing to what they did, even if Cercei had her misgivings at first. Anything beyond that is speculation.
In the show it's very clearly 'one-sided', and someone made the choice to film it that way. At best, it's lazy writing of the 'look how grimdark we are' variety. At worst, someone just plain disliked Cercei.
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Velg I deflnitely agree––it's just the severity of what he does in the show that put me off, like I feel like this show goes to the extreme sometimes and it isn't always in a good way obviously. It does make sense though, realistically, that he's in a pretty messed up place.
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Velg I deflnitely agree––it's just the severity of what he does in the show that put me off, like I feel like this show goes to the extreme sometimes and it isn't always in a good way obviously. It does make sense though, realistically, that he's in a pretty messed up place.
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Alysanne
Agreed. I think what we all have to keep in mind, is that while the show is -based- on and very, very heavily follows the books, and what G.R.R Martin has set up... The books and the show, and the characters within have to be treated as separate entities. Because that's exactly what they are. Did Jaime's little stunt phase me? No. I was a little surprised he was that adamant, but then I was more surprised that Cersei wasn't. THEN AGAIN. We didn't see the whole scene play out. How do we know that she didn't accept him just after the cut-to-black? We don't.
I, personally, wouldn't call it lazy writing, or overly grimdark. The series and the books are both grimdark as hell, that's a given. I think the problem the audience has with the scene is the direct subject matter. We've overlooked and accepted so many brutal deaths, so much torturing, so much betrayal, straight up murder in the most violent of ways, but this particular scene is what has people up in arms. Jaime tried to murder a child by shoving him out a window for this woman lol. But we're all just fiiiiiine with that.
As far as show!Jaime goes, I don't believe it's an out of character move.
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Alysanne
Agreed. I think what we all have to keep in mind, is that while the show is -based- on and very, very heavily follows the books, and what G.R.R Martin has set up... The books and the show, and the characters within have to be treated as separate entities. Because that's exactly what they are. Did Jaime's little stunt phase me? No. I was a little surprised he was that adamant, but then I was more surprised that Cersei wasn't. THEN AGAIN. We didn't see the whole scene play out. How do we know that she didn't accept him just after the cut-to-black? We don't.
I, personally, wouldn't call it lazy writing, or overly grimdark. The series and the books are both grimdark as hell, that's a given. I think the problem the audience has with the scene is the direct subject matter. We've overlooked and accepted so many brutal deaths, so much torturing, so much betrayal, straight up murder in the most violent of ways, but this particular scene is what has people up in arms. Jaime tried to murder a child by shoving him out a window for this woman lol. But we're all just fiiiiiine with that.
As far as show!Jaime goes, I don't believe it's an out of character move.
I am sad now because my favorite character died.
Bye bye, Joffrey.
I am sad now because my favorite character died.
Bye bye, Joffrey.
[quote name="Velg" date="2014-04-26 10:34:25"]@Alysanne
Agreed. I think what we all have to keep in mind, is that while the show is -based- on and very, very heavily follows the books, and what G.R.R Martin has set up... The books and the show, and the characters within have to be treated as separate entities. Because that's exactly what they are. Did Jaime's little stunt phase me? No. I was a little surprised he was that adamant, but then I was more surprised that Cersei wasn't. THEN AGAIN. We didn't see the whole scene play out. How do we know that she didn't accept him just after the cut-to-black? We don't.
I, personally, wouldn't call it lazy writing, or overly grimdark. The series and the books are both grimdark as hell, that's a given. I think the problem the audience has with the scene is the direct subject matter. We've overlooked and accepted so many brutal deaths, so much torturing, so much betrayal, straight up murder in the most violent of ways, but this particular scene is what has people up in arms. Jaime tried to murder a child by shoving him out a window for this woman lol. But we're all just fiiiiiine with that.
As far as show!Jaime goes, I don't believe it's an out of character move.[/quote]
The problem with what happened in this latest episode was that it was indeed very out of character for him. He spoke against such actions and even saved Danaerys's mother from such a fate during Robert's Rebellion.
Not only that, but in the book she never really fought him. In the show, we see he beg for him to stop, and him even say 'I don't care.'
If you would like, I can send you a PM with the chapter? I found it online.
Velg wrote on 2014-04-26 10:34:25:
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Alysanne
Agreed. I think what we all have to keep in mind, is that while the show is -based- on and very, very heavily follows the books, and what G.R.R Martin has set up... The books and the show, and the characters within have to be treated as separate entities. Because that's exactly what they are. Did Jaime's little stunt phase me? No. I was a little surprised he was that adamant, but then I was more surprised that Cersei wasn't. THEN AGAIN. We didn't see the whole scene play out. How do we know that she didn't accept him just after the cut-to-black? We don't.
I, personally, wouldn't call it lazy writing, or overly grimdark. The series and the books are both grimdark as hell, that's a given. I think the problem the audience has with the scene is the direct subject matter. We've overlooked and accepted so many brutal deaths, so much torturing, so much betrayal, straight up murder in the most violent of ways, but this particular scene is what has people up in arms. Jaime tried to murder a child by shoving him out a window for this woman lol. But we're all just fiiiiiine with that.
As far as show!Jaime goes, I don't believe it's an out of character move.
The problem with what happened in this latest episode was that it was indeed very out of character for him. He spoke against such actions and even saved Danaerys's mother from such a fate during Robert's Rebellion.
Not only that, but in the book she never really fought him. In the show, we see he beg for him to stop, and him even say 'I don't care.'
If you would like, I can send you a PM with the chapter? I found it online.
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Velg: Oh come on, really? Maybe she accepted him after the cut to black? By that logic, anything could have happened offscreen. Maybe Jaime and Brienne had sex offscreen. Maybe Jaime really did **** himself with his golden hand offscreen. Maybe everyone had an orgy with the bear offscreen. If the writers wanted Cercei to be ok with what happened, they would have shown her being ok with it.
Also, I don't have any objection to grimdarkness; I have an objection to lazy, out of character grimdarkness. Jaime pushing Bran out of a window made sense given his character at the time and the situation he was in. The incident with Cercei comes at the end of a long string of character development. What he did in the latest episode just felt like the writers lazily shoving in atrocities because they wanted to reassert their grimdark cred.
That's part of the reason I think people are up in arms about this scene. I suspect the other reason is that it hit closer to home. While people know in an abstract sense that torture and murder and children going out of windows are terrible things, they're not something that's ever going to impact most people's lives. What Jaime did is far closer to the realms of possibility for the audience. Hell, it'll have happened to some people in the audience.
Oh, and as a sidenote, who the hell have you been speaking to who's fine with Jaime hurling small children out of windows?!
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Velg: Oh come on, really? Maybe she accepted him after the cut to black? By that logic, anything could have happened offscreen. Maybe Jaime and Brienne had sex offscreen. Maybe Jaime really did **** himself with his golden hand offscreen. Maybe everyone had an orgy with the bear offscreen. If the writers wanted Cercei to be ok with what happened, they would have shown her being ok with it.
Also, I don't have any objection to grimdarkness; I have an objection to lazy, out of character grimdarkness. Jaime pushing Bran out of a window made sense given his character at the time and the situation he was in. The incident with Cercei comes at the end of a long string of character development. What he did in the latest episode just felt like the writers lazily shoving in atrocities because they wanted to reassert their grimdark cred.
That's part of the reason I think people are up in arms about this scene. I suspect the other reason is that it hit closer to home. While people know in an abstract sense that torture and murder and children going out of windows are terrible things, they're not something that's ever going to impact most people's lives. What Jaime did is far closer to the realms of possibility for the audience. Hell, it'll have happened to some people in the audience.
Oh, and as a sidenote, who the hell have you been speaking to who's fine with Jaime hurling small children out of windows?!
Wow. Forgive me for playing devils advocate. I guess looking at all sides of possibility isn't accepted in this discussion. I will reiterate however. book!Jaime and show!Jaime are -not- one and the same, because the books and the show are separate entities. We cannot expect them to act in an identical fashion. We read the book solely through the viewpoint of the character that the chapters are titled after. We watch the show through the viewpoint of a third party. Things are going to be different.
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Shihuchi
I've read the books, thank you. I have them on my kindle.
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QuietOne
Do you know for a fact that they didn't happen off screen? Or outside of a book chapter for that matter? A lot of things happen to Theon "off screen" in the books as well. I'm just sayin' *shrug*
Everyone seems so heavily on the side of "this scene is not within the realm of possibility for a character that's had major development." Fact is? Unstable people can be unpredictable, development or not. Let's say ignore the off screen comment. Jaime is a highly unstable man right now. He's been home for what. Several weeks? He's lost the one thing that made him who he was. His father's disowned him. His sister whom he's loved all these years as a sister and a lover, is refusing him and disgusted by him because of his new handicap (aha... hand-icap...*cough*). His oldest son, and the king he swore to protect is now dead. He's failed to hold up his end of the deal he made with Catelyn. He's a very, very broken man. I'm sorry, but I do not necessarily see this kind of a desperate act as out of character for him right now. Nor do I see it as "lazy writing" or a reinforcement of being a grimdark series. Take it as you will, everyone obviously has a different opinion on what happened. Did it happen like it did in the book? No. But it happened. And people essentially have to either deal with it, and continue watching, or give up the show and just stick with the books.
Also, it's called sarcasm. I suppose that's not accepted here either, though. No of course people aren't "okay" with him flinging Bran from a window. But its a despicable thing for him to have done, and we as readers/watchers have essentially made peace with it. It happened, it's in the past. So are all the people he's killed. They're in the past. We've accepted it. and we're not frothing at the mouth about it.
Wow. Forgive me for playing devils advocate. I guess looking at all sides of possibility isn't accepted in this discussion. I will reiterate however. book!Jaime and show!Jaime are -not- one and the same, because the books and the show are separate entities. We cannot expect them to act in an identical fashion. We read the book solely through the viewpoint of the character that the chapters are titled after. We watch the show through the viewpoint of a third party. Things are going to be different.
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Shihuchi
I've read the books, thank you. I have them on my kindle.
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QuietOne
Do you know for a fact that they didn't happen off screen? Or outside of a book chapter for that matter? A lot of things happen to Theon "off screen" in the books as well. I'm just sayin' *shrug*
Everyone seems so heavily on the side of "this scene is not within the realm of possibility for a character that's had major development." Fact is? Unstable people can be unpredictable, development or not. Let's say ignore the off screen comment. Jaime is a highly unstable man right now. He's been home for what. Several weeks? He's lost the one thing that made him who he was. His father's disowned him. His sister whom he's loved all these years as a sister and a lover, is refusing him and disgusted by him because of his new handicap (aha... hand-icap...*cough*). His oldest son, and the king he swore to protect is now dead. He's failed to hold up his end of the deal he made with Catelyn. He's a very, very broken man. I'm sorry, but I do not necessarily see this kind of a desperate act as out of character for him right now. Nor do I see it as "lazy writing" or a reinforcement of being a grimdark series. Take it as you will, everyone obviously has a different opinion on what happened. Did it happen like it did in the book? No. But it happened. And people essentially have to either deal with it, and continue watching, or give up the show and just stick with the books.
Also, it's called sarcasm. I suppose that's not accepted here either, though. No of course people aren't "okay" with him flinging Bran from a window. But its a despicable thing for him to have done, and we as readers/watchers have essentially made peace with it. It happened, it's in the past. So are all the people he's killed. They're in the past. We've accepted it. and we're not frothing at the mouth about it.
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Velg: Ok, maybe I came across a little strong. I mean, I disagree with you, but I don't want to imply people can't analyse things or hold different opinions. Conversation would get pretty boring if we couldn't.
That said, I know full well Book!Jaime and show!Jaime are two separate characters; I'm not stupid. I think what show!Jaime did was out of character for show!Jaime, even if he was in a messed up mental state at the time. Looks like we'll just have to agree to differ on that.
Also, no, I cannot say with 100% certainty that the hypothetical scenarios I gave didn't happen. But I can say with 99% certainty that they didn't happen, because they are bloody stupid. The point is that without any onscreen evidence that Cercei decided she was ok with what happened, then that's just as unlikely as my examples. The only thing that suggests she might have changed her mind is the version of events in the book, and as you've argued, characters in the book are not the same as characters in the show. Theon's case is different in two ways. Firstly, we don't need to know what exactly happened to him, only that Ramsey did some bad things to him. Secondly, there were enough suggestions pointing that way that we got the gist of what went on anyway.
As far as the Bran thing goes, it's called comedic exaggeration. I apologise if I didn't make that as clear as I perhaps should have, but there's no need to play the martyr. And yes, people have made peace with it. In another four years people will probably have made peace with this scene too, if to a lesser extent. People certainly seemed to be frothing at the mouth about it when Bran first went out the window. And my point about what Jaime did in this series hitting closer to home still stands.
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Velg: Ok, maybe I came across a little strong. I mean, I disagree with you, but I don't want to imply people can't analyse things or hold different opinions. Conversation would get pretty boring if we couldn't.
That said, I know full well Book!Jaime and show!Jaime are two separate characters; I'm not stupid. I think what show!Jaime did was out of character for show!Jaime, even if he was in a messed up mental state at the time. Looks like we'll just have to agree to differ on that.
Also, no, I cannot say with 100% certainty that the hypothetical scenarios I gave didn't happen. But I can say with 99% certainty that they didn't happen, because they are bloody stupid. The point is that without any onscreen evidence that Cercei decided she was ok with what happened, then that's just as unlikely as my examples. The only thing that suggests she might have changed her mind is the version of events in the book, and as you've argued, characters in the book are not the same as characters in the show. Theon's case is different in two ways. Firstly, we don't need to know what exactly happened to him, only that Ramsey did some bad things to him. Secondly, there were enough suggestions pointing that way that we got the gist of what went on anyway.
As far as the Bran thing goes, it's called comedic exaggeration. I apologise if I didn't make that as clear as I perhaps should have, but there's no need to play the martyr. And yes, people have made peace with it. In another four years people will probably have made peace with this scene too, if to a lesser extent. People certainly seemed to be frothing at the mouth about it when Bran first went out the window. And my point about what Jaime did in this series hitting closer to home still stands.
What the heck is happening? Bran never met the mutineers beyond the wall this is absurd! Sorry if spoilers I'm just so upset right now, I was cursing and muttering "jesus christ" under my breath while we were watching trying to keep my temper from completely exploding.
I suppose the writers felt Bran's storyline was so boring so they needed to spice things up a bit but damn I never expected this :c
First Jaime and Cersei and now this. I'm beginning to lose faith in the creators of this show like others, they pulled off the first two episodes this season without a hitch in my opinion but this is a scandal I say.
Where the hell is Martin in all this? I was under the impression he was quite involved, I can't believe he would allow these big changes.
Oh seven protect me.....
What the heck is happening? Bran never met the mutineers beyond the wall this is absurd! Sorry if spoilers I'm just so upset right now, I was cursing and muttering "jesus christ" under my breath while we were watching trying to keep my temper from completely exploding.
I suppose the writers felt Bran's storyline was so boring so they needed to spice things up a bit but damn I never expected this :c
First Jaime and Cersei and now this. I'm beginning to lose faith in the creators of this show like others, they pulled off the first two episodes this season without a hitch in my opinion but this is a scandal I say.
Where the hell is Martin in all this? I was under the impression he was quite involved, I can't believe he would allow these big changes.
Oh seven protect me.....
Walk into the Game of Thrones forum/club like what up - oh everyone is feeling ehhhhhh about the show right now just as I am!
I haven't talked to many people about last week's Jaime/Cersei conudrum. I have strong feelings about it, but at least it's being very significantly discussed across the internet which is the positive outlook in all this...if there is one.
But yeaahhh last night was strange. I'm trying not to make judgements on the show variation yet, but this season seems to be the strongest in tweaks so far. I'll wait awhile longer to make sense of it, but I can't help but be disappointed. At least we'll get TWOW soon, and by soon I mean maybe our grandchildren will be lucky enough to read it.
Walk into the Game of Thrones forum/club like what up - oh everyone is feeling ehhhhhh about the show right now just as I am!
I haven't talked to many people about last week's Jaime/Cersei conudrum. I have strong feelings about it, but at least it's being very significantly discussed across the internet which is the positive outlook in all this...if there is one.
But yeaahhh last night was strange. I'm trying not to make judgements on the show variation yet, but this season seems to be the strongest in tweaks so far. I'll wait awhile longer to make sense of it, but I can't help but be disappointed. At least we'll get TWOW soon, and by soon I mean maybe our grandchildren will be lucky enough to read it.
