[quote name="wickedgarden" date="2018-06-14 10:00:32" ]
[quote name="KhaiLaeh" date="2018-06-14 09:54:59" ]
I belive that everything could be much better if stuff give us an item that actually allows player to choose witch type of eyes he wants for one specific dragon of his instead of that scater sight vial. One item per player, fair and clear without any gambling and randomness added to the mix. Like "hey, try this feature, pal, it's a gift for you!" not "farm like crazy for two days, empty your hoard - you still not gonna get what you want".
Overall, I am really frustrated right now...
[/quote]
[color=#00FA9A][font=Consolas] Actually, that would be an interesting idea. Nobody's really said anything about an idea like that yet. Would definitely erase the troubles of people complaining this is about gambling.
[/quote]
I agree, that is a good idea :3
wickedgarden wrote on 2018-06-14 10:00:32:
KhaiLaeh wrote on 2018-06-14 09:54:59:
I belive that everything could be much better if stuff give us an item that actually allows player to choose witch type of eyes he wants for one specific dragon of his instead of that scater sight vial. One item per player, fair and clear without any gambling and randomness added to the mix. Like "hey, try this feature, pal, it's a gift for you!" not "farm like crazy for two days, empty your hoard - you still not gonna get what you want".
Overall, I am really frustrated right now...
Actually, that would be an interesting idea. Nobody's really said anything about an idea like that yet. Would definitely erase the troubles of people complaining this is about gambling.
I agree, that is a good idea :3
[quote name="CapercaillieSkye" date="2018-06-14 10:00:47" ]
I don't know that everyone needs a gem refund, but I wouldn't say no to a vial refund. If they could refund the vials that were used on dragons and change the percentages so rarer eye types are actually possible, that would fix a lot (though not all) of the problems.
To me, people asking for refunds isn't the problem, it's a symptom of the problem. Everything that we've outlined earlier in this thread is a part of the problem for most players. People are upset about how the event was handled, so they just want to be done with it and not have put real or in-game money into it, so they ask for refunds. It's a sign of people being fed up with this.
[/quote]
[color=#37d095][font=Consolas]Vial refunds, I don't mind. That I would be more than glad to be okay with! However, I don't agree with people asking for [i]gem refunds[/i].
CapercaillieSkye wrote on 2018-06-14 10:00:47:
I don't know that everyone needs a gem refund, but I wouldn't say no to a vial refund. If they could refund the vials that were used on dragons and change the percentages so rarer eye types are actually possible, that would fix a lot (though not all) of the problems.
To me, people asking for refunds isn't the problem, it's a symptom of the problem. Everything that we've outlined earlier in this thread is a part of the problem for most players. People are upset about how the event was handled, so they just want to be done with it and not have put real or in-game money into it, so they ask for refunds. It's a sign of people being fed up with this.
Vial refunds, I don't mind. That I would be more than glad to be okay with! However, I don't agree with people asking for gem refunds.
xxxxxxxxxxxxxx@dearagony || it/its || +3 fr
Since most people aren't listening... Let's bring this back to the actual problems at hand rather than whether or not people are entitled to refunds - it really doesn't matter what we think on the refunds, since FR isn't legally required to refund anyone because of points already made. This means that it's FR decision whether or not to refund people. There's no reason to argue and debate over it - all it's going to do is turn this thread even more toxic than it has been.
Now, onto the important things - this update, as many have stated, has left out a rather significant part of the player population by entirely excluding several game styles. People who are collectors of specific kinds of dragons, such as Gen 1s and 6-digits, or have permas with high sentimental value are unable to include their collections in the new content because of the low chances for eyes they want - eyes that aren't even really natural, yet have been put in the pool of natural eyes - and the fact that the Scattervials were retired after a grand total of 72 hours.
All previous updates have been inclusive of older and irreplaceable dragons. New colors? I can scatter scroll that 7-digit Imp and give him a new paint job. New genes? I can save up and buy them to put on my permas to make them look even more brilliant than before. New familiars? Even if I can't immediately get my hands on one and they retire quickly, like the festival familiars, they are not consumable and therefore not an ever-dwindling finite resource. New apparel? Again, I can save up for and buy it for my permas. New coli stuff? There's no exclusion there - I can use any dragon, as long as I've leveled it to the minimum of whatever the new thing requires. Even if they re-do the mechanics, I can tincture my dragons and re-stat them so they're still useful - no need for me to go get new dragons. Baldwin? Well, even if I'm not at the level required to brew a new gene or apparel item or familiar added to Baldwin, I can still either pay someone to make it for me or I can work my butt off to reach the appropriate level. Swipp? Again, I can work my way to getting whatever new things he has for my dragons if I really want it or, if I'm feeling lazy, I can buy off someone else who did the work.
Yes, I know new eyes will eventually be available in other areas of the site, but that [i]does not guarantee[/i] that someone will find them more appealing for their dragon than one already added that they deem [i]perfect[/i]. It also doesn't fix the problems already presented. Old dragons are still excluded from the 'natural' eye types simply because they were born before the update. Lore wise, entirely reasonable. Game wise? Not reasonable at all. This was also sprung on us with no warning and only offered for a very tiny window that a good chunk of the community was unable to participate in because they have lives outside of the computer. Let's not forget the not only unmentioned, but misrepresented rarity in the Scattervials. While yes, the community came together to figure out rarities and we eventually got numbers, it's still a huge deal to many users that these numbers weren't given when everything was released.
Before anyone screeches at me that Scattervials should be left retired or should not be made available at any more than an Eliminate drop chance in an attempt to defend the want for rarity for these new eyes, go take a look in the AH. Already, Uncommon, Unusual, Rare, and Faceted are [i]5g and under[/i]. Those are [i]fodder prices[/i]. Not to mention I only bred one nest after the update... It had two eggs... I got one with Uncommon Lightning eyes.
[center][url=http://flightrising.com/main.php?dragon=42504772][img]http://flightrising.com/rendern/avatars/425048/42504772.png[/img][/url][/center]
Dragons with Multi-Gaze are being sold for more than dragons with Primal, and even then both of them are being sold for really low prices for being 'rare' and 'special.' I've seen brand new familiars sell for 300-500kt right out the box! Not just any familiars either - coli familiars, which [i]anyone[/i] can go farm. Yeah, they drop to 5kt within the first week, but they still had a way higher starting price - not to mention that there is absolutely [i]nothing[/i] to keep these eyes from following the same trend. There's this thing called undercutting - some people do it severely for quick sales rather than just a little for maximum profit.
Since most people aren't listening... Let's bring this back to the actual problems at hand rather than whether or not people are entitled to refunds - it really doesn't matter what we think on the refunds, since FR isn't legally required to refund anyone because of points already made. This means that it's FR decision whether or not to refund people. There's no reason to argue and debate over it - all it's going to do is turn this thread even more toxic than it has been.
Now, onto the important things - this update, as many have stated, has left out a rather significant part of the player population by entirely excluding several game styles. People who are collectors of specific kinds of dragons, such as Gen 1s and 6-digits, or have permas with high sentimental value are unable to include their collections in the new content because of the low chances for eyes they want - eyes that aren't even really natural, yet have been put in the pool of natural eyes - and the fact that the Scattervials were retired after a grand total of 72 hours.
All previous updates have been inclusive of older and irreplaceable dragons. New colors? I can scatter scroll that 7-digit Imp and give him a new paint job. New genes? I can save up and buy them to put on my permas to make them look even more brilliant than before. New familiars? Even if I can't immediately get my hands on one and they retire quickly, like the festival familiars, they are not consumable and therefore not an ever-dwindling finite resource. New apparel? Again, I can save up for and buy it for my permas. New coli stuff? There's no exclusion there - I can use any dragon, as long as I've leveled it to the minimum of whatever the new thing requires. Even if they re-do the mechanics, I can tincture my dragons and re-stat them so they're still useful - no need for me to go get new dragons. Baldwin? Well, even if I'm not at the level required to brew a new gene or apparel item or familiar added to Baldwin, I can still either pay someone to make it for me or I can work my butt off to reach the appropriate level. Swipp? Again, I can work my way to getting whatever new things he has for my dragons if I really want it or, if I'm feeling lazy, I can buy off someone else who did the work.
Yes, I know new eyes will eventually be available in other areas of the site, but that
does not guarantee that someone will find them more appealing for their dragon than one already added that they deem
perfect. It also doesn't fix the problems already presented. Old dragons are still excluded from the 'natural' eye types simply because they were born before the update. Lore wise, entirely reasonable. Game wise? Not reasonable at all. This was also sprung on us with no warning and only offered for a very tiny window that a good chunk of the community was unable to participate in because they have lives outside of the computer. Let's not forget the not only unmentioned, but misrepresented rarity in the Scattervials. While yes, the community came together to figure out rarities and we eventually got numbers, it's still a huge deal to many users that these numbers weren't given when everything was released.
Before anyone screeches at me that Scattervials should be left retired or should not be made available at any more than an Eliminate drop chance in an attempt to defend the want for rarity for these new eyes, go take a look in the AH. Already, Uncommon, Unusual, Rare, and Faceted are
5g and under. Those are
fodder prices. Not to mention I only bred one nest after the update... It had two eggs... I got one with Uncommon Lightning eyes.
Dragons with Multi-Gaze are being sold for more than dragons with Primal, and even then both of them are being sold for really low prices for being 'rare' and 'special.' I've seen brand new familiars sell for 300-500kt right out the box! Not just any familiars either - coli familiars, which
anyone can go farm. Yeah, they drop to 5kt within the first week, but they still had a way higher starting price - not to mention that there is absolutely
nothing to keep these eyes from following the same trend. There's this thing called undercutting - some people do it severely for quick sales rather than just a little for maximum profit.
I'd definitely support the notion of giving one or two guaranteed eye-changing items as a sort of apology/whoops to everyone that participated in this event. I don't think a few cool eyes on permas would hurt the eye system going forward. Honestly - if FR had easy access to records of how many scattervials each user has used, I'd say distribute amounts to each user that correlate to that, like maybe one for ten or one for fifteen. But unfortunately, I don't think FR has easy access to that information.
[quote name="CapercaillieSkye" date="2018-06-14 10:00:47" ]
I don't know that everyone needs a gem refund, but I wouldn't say no to a vial refund. If they could refund the vials that were used on dragons and change the percentages so rarer eye types are actually possible, that would fix a lot (though not all) of the problems.
To me, people asking for refunds isn't the problem, it's a symptom of the problem. Everything that we've outlined earlier in this thread is a part of the problem for most players. People are upset about how the event was handled, so they just want to be done with it and not have put real or in-game money into it, so they ask for refunds. It's a sign of people being fed up with this.
Shaming everyone about that, saying they really don't deserve a refund, solves nothing. It most likely will only aggravate their discontentment. If staff makes some of the well supported changes some users have suggested however, the refund requests may very well lessen considerably. After all, people don't want refunds on a purchase they're fully satisfied with.
[/quote]
I think you're unfairly conflating shaming with the majority of what's being said. Saying 'no, that's not reasonable, and here's why' to a request is not shaming. (Telling people that they're idiots for wanting something like that and that they should go cry somewhere else? That's shaming.) Whether or not a request is actually unreasonable is up for debate, and discussing that in detail is a fine way to hammer out those intricacies, but if I think an idea's dangerous, I'm going to challenge it instead of letting it go unchecked.
I've stated why I don't support the notion of refunds - because Flight Rising made these items available to all users, and it was users who set the gem prices. But I also don't support it because I see it as a Pandora's Box where anyone that feels like they unfairly lost value is entitled to a direct refund, and having this example emboldens each case. Say I buy a Light Sprite for 50kg, and a week later, the market price drops to 37kg. Or if I buy thousands of tricolor scatterscrolls, and I can mathematically prove that I had worse luck than could be reasonably expected by charting out the ranges of results I wanted versus the ranges of results I got.
If the refunds are a symptom of the problem, then let's fix the problem, not its symptoms. It's tricky because a lot of this is over and done with, and changing aspects of the scattervials now won't help the users that spent hundreds on them.
@Aequorin @Undel @Xhaztol I understand if you can't answer this question, but I think this is actually a valid one to pose that could affect discourse of further solutions to the current hubbub. If nothing else, if the option's open, I'd ask you consider its applications.
Does Flight Rising have a uniform (meaning: not opening each account individually and checking their use history) way of seeing how many scattervials an account has used? The sort of read-access that could be plugged into an algorithm, and not something that could only be handled on a user-by-user basis?
I ask this because I believe the answer would really help focus discussion here; either it makes available certain smooth solutions that address how deep any given user became embroiled, or it'll cut off discussion of things the system just can't handle.
I'd definitely support the notion of giving one or two guaranteed eye-changing items as a sort of apology/whoops to everyone that participated in this event. I don't think a few cool eyes on permas would hurt the eye system going forward. Honestly - if FR had easy access to records of how many scattervials each user has used, I'd say distribute amounts to each user that correlate to that, like maybe one for ten or one for fifteen. But unfortunately, I don't think FR has easy access to that information.
CapercaillieSkye wrote on 2018-06-14 10:00:47:
I don't know that everyone needs a gem refund, but I wouldn't say no to a vial refund. If they could refund the vials that were used on dragons and change the percentages so rarer eye types are actually possible, that would fix a lot (though not all) of the problems.
To me, people asking for refunds isn't the problem, it's a symptom of the problem. Everything that we've outlined earlier in this thread is a part of the problem for most players. People are upset about how the event was handled, so they just want to be done with it and not have put real or in-game money into it, so they ask for refunds. It's a sign of people being fed up with this.
Shaming everyone about that, saying they really don't deserve a refund, solves nothing. It most likely will only aggravate their discontentment. If staff makes some of the well supported changes some users have suggested however, the refund requests may very well lessen considerably. After all, people don't want refunds on a purchase they're fully satisfied with.
I think you're unfairly conflating shaming with the majority of what's being said. Saying 'no, that's not reasonable, and here's why' to a request is not shaming. (Telling people that they're idiots for wanting something like that and that they should go cry somewhere else? That's shaming.) Whether or not a request is actually unreasonable is up for debate, and discussing that in detail is a fine way to hammer out those intricacies, but if I think an idea's dangerous, I'm going to challenge it instead of letting it go unchecked.
I've stated why I don't support the notion of refunds - because Flight Rising made these items available to all users, and it was users who set the gem prices. But I also don't support it because I see it as a Pandora's Box where anyone that feels like they unfairly lost value is entitled to a direct refund, and having this example emboldens each case. Say I buy a Light Sprite for 50kg, and a week later, the market price drops to 37kg. Or if I buy thousands of tricolor scatterscrolls, and I can mathematically prove that I had worse luck than could be reasonably expected by charting out the ranges of results I wanted versus the ranges of results I got.
If the refunds are a symptom of the problem, then let's fix the problem, not its symptoms. It's tricky because a lot of this is over and done with, and changing aspects of the scattervials now won't help the users that spent hundreds on them.
@
Aequorin @
Undel @
Xhaztol I understand if you can't answer this question, but I think this is actually a valid one to pose that could affect discourse of further solutions to the current hubbub. If nothing else, if the option's open, I'd ask you consider its applications.
Does Flight Rising have a uniform (meaning: not opening each account individually and checking their use history) way of seeing how many scattervials an account has used? The sort of read-access that could be plugged into an algorithm, and not something that could only be handled on a user-by-user basis?
I ask this because I believe the answer would really help focus discussion here; either it makes available certain smooth solutions that address how deep any given user became embroiled, or it'll cut off discussion of things the system just can't handle.
[quote name="Volinolona" date="2018-06-14 10:06:21" ]
Since most people aren't listening... Let's bring this back to the actual problems at hand rather than whether or not people are entitled to refunds - it really doesn't matter what we think on the refunds, since FR isn't legally required to refund anyone because of points already made. This means that it's FR decision whether or not to refund people. There's no reason to argue and debate over it - all it's going to do is turn this thread even more toxic than it has been.
Now, onto the important things - this update, as many have stated, has left out a rather significant part of the player population by entirely excluding several game styles. People who are collectors of specific kinds of dragons, such as Gen 1s and 6-digits, or have permas with high sentimental value are unable to include their collections in the new content because of the low chances for eyes they want - eyes that aren't even really natural, yet have been put in the pool of natural eyes - and the fact that the Scattervials were retired after a grand total of 72 hours.
All previous updates have been inclusive of older and irreplaceable dragons. New colors? I can scatter scroll that 7-digit Imp and give him a new paint job. New genes? I can save up and buy them to put on my permas to make them look even more brilliant than before. New familiars? Even if I can't immediately get my hands on one and they retire quickly, like the festival familiars, they are not consumable and therefore not an ever-dwindling finite resource. New apparel? Again, I can save up for and buy it for my permas. New coli stuff? There's no exclusion there - I can use any dragon, as long as I've leveled it to the minimum of whatever the new thing requires. Even if they re-do the mechanics, I can tincture my dragons and re-stat them so they're still useful - no need for me to go get new dragons. Baldwin? Well, even if I'm not at the level required to brew a new gene or apparel item or familiar added to Baldwin, I can still either pay someone to make it for me or I can work my butt off to reach the appropriate level. Swipp? Again, I can work my way to getting whatever new things he has for my dragons if I really want it or, if I'm feeling lazy, I can buy off someone else who did the work.
Yes, I know new eyes will eventually be available in other areas of the site, but that [i]does not guarantee[/i] that someone will find them more appealing for their dragon than one already added that they deem [i]perfect[/i]. It also doesn't fix the problems already presented. Old dragons are still excluded from the 'natural' eye types simply because they were born before the update. Lore wise, entirely reasonable. Game wise? Not reasonable at all. This was also sprung on us with no warning and only offered for a very tiny window that a good chunk of the community was unable to participate in because they have lives outside of the computer. Let's not forget the not only unmentioned, but misrepresented rarity in the Scattervials. While yes, the community came together to figure out rarities and we eventually got numbers, it's still a huge deal to many users that these numbers weren't given when everything was released.
Before anyone screeches at me that Scattervials should be left retired or should not be made available at any more than an Eliminate drop chance in an attempt to defend the want for rarity for these new eyes, go take a look in the AH. Already, Uncommon, Unusual, Rare, and Faceted are [i]5g and under[/i]. Those are [i]fodder prices[/i]. Not to mention I only bred one nest after the update... It had two eggs... I got one with Uncommon Lightning eyes.
[center][url=http://flightrising.com/main.php?dragon=42504772][img]http://flightrising.com/rendern/avatars/425048/42504772.png[/img][/url][/center]
Dragons with Multi-Gaze are being sold for more than dragons with Primal, and even then both of them are being sold for really low prices for being 'rare' and 'special.' I've seen brand new familiars sell for 300-500kt right out the box! Not just any familiars either - coli familiars, which [i]anyone[/i] can go farm. Yeah, they drop to 5kt within the first week, but they still had a way higher starting price - not to mention that there is absolutely [i]nothing[/i] to keep these eyes from following the same trend. There's this thing called undercutting - some people do it severely for quick sales rather than just a little for maximum profit.
[/quote]
I agree with this so much. I've Saud multiple times the eyes aren't going to hold their value or buoy the worth of hatchling for long. I bought a very nice rare eyed mirror female last night for less than 5k, rare eyes might as well be common for all their selling on the AH.
The only thing that marks a dragons base worth is low ID numbers and generation. The very dragons who can hold their value and will always have the most monetary worth are the ones left out of this event.
Volinolona wrote on 2018-06-14 10:06:21:
Since most people aren't listening... Let's bring this back to the actual problems at hand rather than whether or not people are entitled to refunds - it really doesn't matter what we think on the refunds, since FR isn't legally required to refund anyone because of points already made. This means that it's FR decision whether or not to refund people. There's no reason to argue and debate over it - all it's going to do is turn this thread even more toxic than it has been.
Now, onto the important things - this update, as many have stated, has left out a rather significant part of the player population by entirely excluding several game styles. People who are collectors of specific kinds of dragons, such as Gen 1s and 6-digits, or have permas with high sentimental value are unable to include their collections in the new content because of the low chances for eyes they want - eyes that aren't even really natural, yet have been put in the pool of natural eyes - and the fact that the Scattervials were retired after a grand total of 72 hours.
All previous updates have been inclusive of older and irreplaceable dragons. New colors? I can scatter scroll that 7-digit Imp and give him a new paint job. New genes? I can save up and buy them to put on my permas to make them look even more brilliant than before. New familiars? Even if I can't immediately get my hands on one and they retire quickly, like the festival familiars, they are not consumable and therefore not an ever-dwindling finite resource. New apparel? Again, I can save up for and buy it for my permas. New coli stuff? There's no exclusion there - I can use any dragon, as long as I've leveled it to the minimum of whatever the new thing requires. Even if they re-do the mechanics, I can tincture my dragons and re-stat them so they're still useful - no need for me to go get new dragons. Baldwin? Well, even if I'm not at the level required to brew a new gene or apparel item or familiar added to Baldwin, I can still either pay someone to make it for me or I can work my butt off to reach the appropriate level. Swipp? Again, I can work my way to getting whatever new things he has for my dragons if I really want it or, if I'm feeling lazy, I can buy off someone else who did the work.
Yes, I know new eyes will eventually be available in other areas of the site, but that
does not guarantee that someone will find them more appealing for their dragon than one already added that they deem
perfect. It also doesn't fix the problems already presented. Old dragons are still excluded from the 'natural' eye types simply because they were born before the update. Lore wise, entirely reasonable. Game wise? Not reasonable at all. This was also sprung on us with no warning and only offered for a very tiny window that a good chunk of the community was unable to participate in because they have lives outside of the computer. Let's not forget the not only unmentioned, but misrepresented rarity in the Scattervials. While yes, the community came together to figure out rarities and we eventually got numbers, it's still a huge deal to many users that these numbers weren't given when everything was released.
Before anyone screeches at me that Scattervials should be left retired or should not be made available at any more than an Eliminate drop chance in an attempt to defend the want for rarity for these new eyes, go take a look in the AH. Already, Uncommon, Unusual, Rare, and Faceted are
5g and under. Those are
fodder prices. Not to mention I only bred one nest after the update... It had two eggs... I got one with Uncommon Lightning eyes.
Dragons with Multi-Gaze are being sold for more than dragons with Primal, and even then both of them are being sold for really low prices for being 'rare' and 'special.' I've seen brand new familiars sell for 300-500kt right out the box! Not just any familiars either - coli familiars, which
anyone can go farm. Yeah, they drop to 5kt within the first week, but they still had a way higher starting price - not to mention that there is absolutely
nothing to keep these eyes from following the same trend. There's this thing called undercutting - some people do it severely for quick sales rather than just a little for maximum profit.
I agree with this so much. I've Saud multiple times the eyes aren't going to hold their value or buoy the worth of hatchling for long. I bought a very nice rare eyed mirror female last night for less than 5k, rare eyes might as well be common for all their selling on the AH.
The only thing that marks a dragons base worth is low ID numbers and generation. The very dragons who can hold their value and will always have the most monetary worth are the ones left out of this event.
[quote name="Laluzi" date="2018-06-14 10:15:04" ]
If the refunds are a symptom of the problem, then let's fix the problem, not its symptoms. It's tricky because a lot of this is over and done with, and changing aspects of the scattervials now won't help the users that spent hundreds on them.
[/quote]
^ This was exactly my point (and I do agree that it's a tricky thing to fix, but I like some of the ideas that were suggested before, such as DeadBattery's idea and Volinolona's). We need to fix the problem, not its symptoms.
I wasn't trying to sound like I'm in support of the players asking for refunds, and I appologize if it came across that way. To the contrary, I don't think gem refunds are reasonable at all. I just think that we're going about solving that issue the wrong way. If we just try to get them to stop requesting refunds, it's not going to work, beacuse it's coming from frustration of the very real problems many people have mentioned here. If staff could fix even just some of those problems, it would probably go a long way to fixing the "asking for refunds" problem.
So, basically, I'm in favor of no longer talking about the refunds problem and instead going back to the core problems with this update.
Laluzi wrote on 2018-06-14 10:15:04:
If the refunds are a symptom of the problem, then let's fix the problem, not its symptoms. It's tricky because a lot of this is over and done with, and changing aspects of the scattervials now won't help the users that spent hundreds on them.
^ This was exactly my point (and I do agree that it's a tricky thing to fix, but I like some of the ideas that were suggested before, such as DeadBattery's idea and Volinolona's). We need to fix the problem, not its symptoms.
I wasn't trying to sound like I'm in support of the players asking for refunds, and I appologize if it came across that way. To the contrary, I don't think gem refunds are reasonable at all. I just think that we're going about solving that issue the wrong way. If we just try to get them to stop requesting refunds, it's not going to work, beacuse it's coming from frustration of the very real problems many people have mentioned here. If staff could fix even just some of those problems, it would probably go a long way to fixing the "asking for refunds" problem.
So, basically, I'm in favor of no longer talking about the refunds problem and instead going back to the core problems with this update.
[quote name="Sorel" date="2018-06-14 10:21:17" ]
[quote name="Volinolona" date="2018-06-14 10:06:21" ]
Since most people aren't listening... Let's bring this back to the actual problems at hand rather than whether or not people are entitled to refunds - it really doesn't matter what we think on the refunds, since FR isn't legally required to refund anyone because of points already made. This means that it's FR decision whether or not to refund people. There's no reason to argue and debate over it - all it's going to do is turn this thread even more toxic than it has been.
Now, onto the important things - this update, as many have stated, has left out a rather significant part of the player population by entirely excluding several game styles. People who are collectors of specific kinds of dragons, such as Gen 1s and 6-digits, or have permas with high sentimental value are unable to include their collections in the new content because of the low chances for eyes they want - eyes that aren't even really natural, yet have been put in the pool of natural eyes - and the fact that the Scattervials were retired after a grand total of 72 hours.
All previous updates have been inclusive of older and irreplaceable dragons. New colors? I can scatter scroll that 7-digit Imp and give him a new paint job. New genes? I can save up and buy them to put on my permas to make them look even more brilliant than before. New familiars? Even if I can't immediately get my hands on one and they retire quickly, like the festival familiars, they are not consumable and therefore not an ever-dwindling finite resource. New apparel? Again, I can save up for and buy it for my permas. New coli stuff? There's no exclusion there - I can use any dragon, as long as I've leveled it to the minimum of whatever the new thing requires. Even if they re-do the mechanics, I can tincture my dragons and re-stat them so they're still useful - no need for me to go get new dragons. Baldwin? Well, even if I'm not at the level required to brew a new gene or apparel item or familiar added to Baldwin, I can still either pay someone to make it for me or I can work my butt off to reach the appropriate level. Swipp? Again, I can work my way to getting whatever new things he has for my dragons if I really want it or, if I'm feeling lazy, I can buy off someone else who did the work.
Yes, I know new eyes will eventually be available in other areas of the site, but that [i]does not guarantee[/i] that someone will find them more appealing for their dragon than one already added that they deem [i]perfect[/i]. It also doesn't fix the problems already presented. Old dragons are still excluded from the 'natural' eye types simply because they were born before the update. Lore wise, entirely reasonable. Game wise? Not reasonable at all. This was also sprung on us with no warning and only offered for a very tiny window that a good chunk of the community was unable to participate in because they have lives outside of the computer. Let's not forget the not only unmentioned, but misrepresented rarity in the Scattervials. While yes, the community came together to figure out rarities and we eventually got numbers, it's still a huge deal to many users that these numbers weren't given when everything was released.
Before anyone screeches at me that Scattervials should be left retired or should not be made available at any more than an Eliminate drop chance in an attempt to defend the want for rarity for these new eyes, go take a look in the AH. Already, Uncommon, Unusual, Rare, and Faceted are [i]5g and under[/i]. Those are [i]fodder prices[/i]. Not to mention I only bred one nest after the update... It had two eggs... I got one with Uncommon Lightning eyes.
[center][url=http://flightrising.com/main.php?dragon=42504772][img]http://flightrising.com/rendern/avatars/425048/42504772.png[/img][/url][/center]
Dragons with Multi-Gaze are being sold for more than dragons with Primal, and even then both of them are being sold for really low prices for being 'rare' and 'special.' I've seen brand new familiars sell for 300-500kt right out the box! Not just any familiars either - coli familiars, which [i]anyone[/i] can go farm. Yeah, they drop to 5kt within the first week, but they still had a way higher starting price - not to mention that there is absolutely [i]nothing[/i] to keep these eyes from following the same trend. There's this thing called undercutting - some people do it severely for quick sales rather than just a little for maximum profit.
[/quote]
I agree with this so much. I've Saud multiple times the eyes aren't going to hold their value or buoy the worth of hatchling for long. I bought a very nice rare eyed mirror female last night for less than 5k, rare eyes might as well be common for all their selling on the AH.
The only thing that marks a dragons base worth is low ID numbers and generation. The very dragons who can hold their value and will always have the most monetary worth are the ones left out of this event.
[/quote]
^ I 100% agree with all of this, both what Volinolona wrote and what Sorel said.
Sorel wrote on 2018-06-14 10:21:17:
Volinolona wrote on 2018-06-14 10:06:21:
Since most people aren't listening... Let's bring this back to the actual problems at hand rather than whether or not people are entitled to refunds - it really doesn't matter what we think on the refunds, since FR isn't legally required to refund anyone because of points already made. This means that it's FR decision whether or not to refund people. There's no reason to argue and debate over it - all it's going to do is turn this thread even more toxic than it has been.
Now, onto the important things - this update, as many have stated, has left out a rather significant part of the player population by entirely excluding several game styles. People who are collectors of specific kinds of dragons, such as Gen 1s and 6-digits, or have permas with high sentimental value are unable to include their collections in the new content because of the low chances for eyes they want - eyes that aren't even really natural, yet have been put in the pool of natural eyes - and the fact that the Scattervials were retired after a grand total of 72 hours.
All previous updates have been inclusive of older and irreplaceable dragons. New colors? I can scatter scroll that 7-digit Imp and give him a new paint job. New genes? I can save up and buy them to put on my permas to make them look even more brilliant than before. New familiars? Even if I can't immediately get my hands on one and they retire quickly, like the festival familiars, they are not consumable and therefore not an ever-dwindling finite resource. New apparel? Again, I can save up for and buy it for my permas. New coli stuff? There's no exclusion there - I can use any dragon, as long as I've leveled it to the minimum of whatever the new thing requires. Even if they re-do the mechanics, I can tincture my dragons and re-stat them so they're still useful - no need for me to go get new dragons. Baldwin? Well, even if I'm not at the level required to brew a new gene or apparel item or familiar added to Baldwin, I can still either pay someone to make it for me or I can work my butt off to reach the appropriate level. Swipp? Again, I can work my way to getting whatever new things he has for my dragons if I really want it or, if I'm feeling lazy, I can buy off someone else who did the work.
Yes, I know new eyes will eventually be available in other areas of the site, but that
does not guarantee that someone will find them more appealing for their dragon than one already added that they deem
perfect. It also doesn't fix the problems already presented. Old dragons are still excluded from the 'natural' eye types simply because they were born before the update. Lore wise, entirely reasonable. Game wise? Not reasonable at all. This was also sprung on us with no warning and only offered for a very tiny window that a good chunk of the community was unable to participate in because they have lives outside of the computer. Let's not forget the not only unmentioned, but misrepresented rarity in the Scattervials. While yes, the community came together to figure out rarities and we eventually got numbers, it's still a huge deal to many users that these numbers weren't given when everything was released.
Before anyone screeches at me that Scattervials should be left retired or should not be made available at any more than an Eliminate drop chance in an attempt to defend the want for rarity for these new eyes, go take a look in the AH. Already, Uncommon, Unusual, Rare, and Faceted are
5g and under. Those are
fodder prices. Not to mention I only bred one nest after the update... It had two eggs... I got one with Uncommon Lightning eyes.
Dragons with Multi-Gaze are being sold for more than dragons with Primal, and even then both of them are being sold for really low prices for being 'rare' and 'special.' I've seen brand new familiars sell for 300-500kt right out the box! Not just any familiars either - coli familiars, which
anyone can go farm. Yeah, they drop to 5kt within the first week, but they still had a way higher starting price - not to mention that there is absolutely
nothing to keep these eyes from following the same trend. There's this thing called undercutting - some people do it severely for quick sales rather than just a little for maximum profit.
I agree with this so much. I've Saud multiple times the eyes aren't going to hold their value or buoy the worth of hatchling for long. I bought a very nice rare eyed mirror female last night for less than 5k, rare eyes might as well be common for all their selling on the AH.
The only thing that marks a dragons base worth is low ID numbers and generation. The very dragons who can hold their value and will always have the most monetary worth are the ones left out of this event.
^ I 100% agree with all of this, both what Volinolona wrote and what Sorel said.
[quote name="wickedgarden" date="2018-06-14 09:40:44" ]
[color=green][font=Consolas]I agree with this. The whole gambling thing and the refunds are TOTALLY different issues from what we first started out with. I don't even know where the gambling accusations and the refunding things even came from. How can you refund something you didn't directly buy with money? So what you got vials with premium currency. They weren't directly meant to be bought via currency. Neopets' NC Mall works the exact same way. I do feel terribly sorry for everyone who has pumped hundreds of real life money into the premium currency, but you didn't directly buy Vials with that money. Other people grinded possibly for hours on end in the Coliseum IN ORDER TO sell the Vials on the AH. (Doesn't take into account how many people got the Glowing Eye vials obviously.) I wouldn't consider it gambling or the urgency for refunds. It's an exchange; it's the FR market. People made a lot of money off of grinding for the Vials and selling them. You can't exactly get refunds from them after this fiasco.
Plus, the Vials have already been used. Again, sorry to the people who put hundreds of gems into the game, but it's primarily their fault for falling to the market out of impulse. Don't see why refunds should be considered unless it's directly putting money back into the website and not into other users' wallets.
Anyway, the whole gambling thing and whatnot isn't even important. There was no inherent randomness of win or loss with getting Vials -- only with how much time someone put into grinding for them. Gambling takes into account inherent luck, and win or loss of what you put into it. Comparing the grinding and transaction of vials to gambling games like slots or Blackjack actually makes zero sense. So you bought or grinded in the Coli for a bunch of Vials. You roll a bunch of times on one or multiple dragons, and you don't like the results. You can't simply ask for your money back, because the vials were NOT in the Gem MP. They were Baldwin Brews (you aren't gambling to get the ingredients, you're grinding or buying them from others) and Coliseum drops. You can't exactly ask for your money back.
I would understand wanting refunds if they were available in the Gem Marketplace exclusively, but even THEN, you are stuck. While I understand the two work completely differently, you don't really see people buying Tri-Color Scatterscrolls and using them on a dragon, and then complaining those are the colors they didn't want and asking for a refund. It's just luck and chance that you'll get a good roll -- no real, true gambling involved whatsoever.
I would like these points to be explains further if anyone can though, even if they aren't inherently the features which made this event a total bust.
[/quote]
I hate to drag this issue out more than necessary, but if you look up gambling, then Scattersights are absolutely gambling. Yes, they [i]were[/i] available in the Coliseum. They used to be available as a brew. The difference between transmuting items in Baldwin's Brew vs. the Scattersights, is that you aren't really giving up things of value when you brew. Assuming that you know how it works, then you'll understand that you don't want to throw in valuable familiars, apparel, etc. into the brew. When you transmute items, you want to transmute things you have no use for. And you always get something out of it. It isn't such a big loss, because the items you throw in there aren't that valuable in the first place.
On the other hand, Scattersights are retired. You can't get them from Coli anymore. You can't brew them anymore. You can only spend gems (Or treasure)--a valuable resource, on the vials to use them, and you're extremely likely to get Uncommon 10 times in a row. The odds are rigged against you, which is a major difference from the Scatterscroll. The Scatterscroll has even odds of getting every color. The issue with that is there's just a lot of colors, which makes it harder to get the desired result. And even if you didn't get the exact colors you want, they aren't finite. Scatterscrolls are generally accepted because they aren't retired. There isn't pressure on you to buy them before time runs out. I'm fairly certain that if the Scatterscrolls were a limited-time item that only existed for 3 days with no prior warning, we would be having this same community outrage.
Wikipedia defines gambling as 'Gambling is the wagering of money or something of [b]value[/b] on an event with an uncertain outcome with the primary intent of winning money or material goods'. You are wagering gems on using a Scattersight vial, in the hopes that you may get Primal, a Rare eye type, perhaps even Uncommon (If Uncommon is your goal then all the power to you).
With this argument, a lot of things are technically gambling. The Tri-Color Scatterscrolls could be considered gambling, even. The question is less of whether or not Scattersights are gambling, and more of how insidious the chances are. The Scattersights are finite, and the chances of getting a desirable eye type are astronomically low. Primal is less than 1%. Add that to the fact that their continued usage will only make them more expensive, as Scattersights become rarer and rarer, and you've got an item that's too valuable to even use, because chances are you'll just get Uncommon several times in a row. If you buy a Scattersight to just hold onto it, then sure, I guess it isn't gambling. You got what you paid for. But the moment you use it, you're rolling the dice, and are extremely unlikely to get what you want. That Scattersight is gone from your hoard. You have to buy another one, which may be even more expensive than the last.
It's perfectly reasonable to equate them to gambling. We should be focusing on how to fix it, rather than calling it unfair.
My solution is that the eyes [i]should[/i] be treated like a fourth gene. There honestly isn't any reason not to. The staff themselves had said they're releasing new eye types to the marketplace someday, which would be functionally similar to the gene scrolls. The only thing that makes the eyes different from our other genes, is that they can't be passed down and are ultimately random. If you breed two dragons with primal eyes, you won't be guaranteed to get a primal.
No one said that fourth genes cannot have a random aspect to them, or that they had to be passed down. This is an update with a lot of potential, and I still believe that it can be fixed, if the staff team were to just truly listen.
wickedgarden wrote on 2018-06-14 09:40:44:
I agree with this. The whole gambling thing and the refunds are TOTALLY different issues from what we first started out with. I don't even know where the gambling accusations and the refunding things even came from. How can you refund something you didn't directly buy with money? So what you got vials with premium currency. They weren't directly meant to be bought via currency. Neopets' NC Mall works the exact same way. I do feel terribly sorry for everyone who has pumped hundreds of real life money into the premium currency, but you didn't directly buy Vials with that money. Other people grinded possibly for hours on end in the Coliseum IN ORDER TO sell the Vials on the AH. (Doesn't take into account how many people got the Glowing Eye vials obviously.) I wouldn't consider it gambling or the urgency for refunds. It's an exchange; it's the FR market. People made a lot of money off of grinding for the Vials and selling them. You can't exactly get refunds from them after this fiasco.
Plus, the Vials have already been used. Again, sorry to the people who put hundreds of gems into the game, but it's primarily their fault for falling to the market out of impulse. Don't see why refunds should be considered unless it's directly putting money back into the website and not into other users' wallets.
Anyway, the whole gambling thing and whatnot isn't even important. There was no inherent randomness of win or loss with getting Vials -- only with how much time someone put into grinding for them. Gambling takes into account inherent luck, and win or loss of what you put into it. Comparing the grinding and transaction of vials to gambling games like slots or Blackjack actually makes zero sense. So you bought or grinded in the Coli for a bunch of Vials. You roll a bunch of times on one or multiple dragons, and you don't like the results. You can't simply ask for your money back, because the vials were NOT in the Gem MP. They were Baldwin Brews (you aren't gambling to get the ingredients, you're grinding or buying them from others) and Coliseum drops. You can't exactly ask for your money back.
I would understand wanting refunds if they were available in the Gem Marketplace exclusively, but even THEN, you are stuck. While I understand the two work completely differently, you don't really see people buying Tri-Color Scatterscrolls and using them on a dragon, and then complaining those are the colors they didn't want and asking for a refund. It's just luck and chance that you'll get a good roll -- no real, true gambling involved whatsoever.
I would like these points to be explains further if anyone can though, even if they aren't inherently the features which made this event a total bust.
I hate to drag this issue out more than necessary, but if you look up gambling, then Scattersights are absolutely gambling. Yes, they
were available in the Coliseum. They used to be available as a brew. The difference between transmuting items in Baldwin's Brew vs. the Scattersights, is that you aren't really giving up things of value when you brew. Assuming that you know how it works, then you'll understand that you don't want to throw in valuable familiars, apparel, etc. into the brew. When you transmute items, you want to transmute things you have no use for. And you always get something out of it. It isn't such a big loss, because the items you throw in there aren't that valuable in the first place.
On the other hand, Scattersights are retired. You can't get them from Coli anymore. You can't brew them anymore. You can only spend gems (Or treasure)--a valuable resource, on the vials to use them, and you're extremely likely to get Uncommon 10 times in a row. The odds are rigged against you, which is a major difference from the Scatterscroll. The Scatterscroll has even odds of getting every color. The issue with that is there's just a lot of colors, which makes it harder to get the desired result. And even if you didn't get the exact colors you want, they aren't finite. Scatterscrolls are generally accepted because they aren't retired. There isn't pressure on you to buy them before time runs out. I'm fairly certain that if the Scatterscrolls were a limited-time item that only existed for 3 days with no prior warning, we would be having this same community outrage.
Wikipedia defines gambling as 'Gambling is the wagering of money or something of
value on an event with an uncertain outcome with the primary intent of winning money or material goods'. You are wagering gems on using a Scattersight vial, in the hopes that you may get Primal, a Rare eye type, perhaps even Uncommon (If Uncommon is your goal then all the power to you).
With this argument, a lot of things are technically gambling. The Tri-Color Scatterscrolls could be considered gambling, even. The question is less of whether or not Scattersights are gambling, and more of how insidious the chances are. The Scattersights are finite, and the chances of getting a desirable eye type are astronomically low. Primal is less than 1%. Add that to the fact that their continued usage will only make them more expensive, as Scattersights become rarer and rarer, and you've got an item that's too valuable to even use, because chances are you'll just get Uncommon several times in a row. If you buy a Scattersight to just hold onto it, then sure, I guess it isn't gambling. You got what you paid for. But the moment you use it, you're rolling the dice, and are extremely unlikely to get what you want. That Scattersight is gone from your hoard. You have to buy another one, which may be even more expensive than the last.
It's perfectly reasonable to equate them to gambling. We should be focusing on how to fix it, rather than calling it unfair.
My solution is that the eyes
should be treated like a fourth gene. There honestly isn't any reason not to. The staff themselves had said they're releasing new eye types to the marketplace someday, which would be functionally similar to the gene scrolls. The only thing that makes the eyes different from our other genes, is that they can't be passed down and are ultimately random. If you breed two dragons with primal eyes, you won't be guaranteed to get a primal.
No one said that fourth genes cannot have a random aspect to them, or that they had to be passed down. This is an update with a lot of potential, and I still believe that it can be fixed, if the staff team were to just truly listen.
[quote name="Volinolona" date="2018-06-14 10:06:21" ]All previous updates have been inclusive of older and irreplaceable dragons. New colors? I can scatter scroll that 7-digit Imp and give him a new paint job. [/quote]
I honestly don't understand this comparison. Older dragons were certainly left out of the colour wheel expansion, and even a scatter wouldn't guarantee me even a semblance of what colours I would want for my older, irreplaceable dragons. The chances of me getting the exact colour combination I wanted would literally be one in [b]millions[/b]. For 350g a pop, no less.
I certainly think that getting the exact eyes you want from a 150g scattersight is much more feasible, yet it's some great injustice?
Volinolona wrote on 2018-06-14 10:06:21:
All previous updates have been inclusive of older and irreplaceable dragons. New colors? I can scatter scroll that 7-digit Imp and give him a new paint job.
I honestly don't understand this comparison. Older dragons were certainly left out of the colour wheel expansion, and even a scatter wouldn't guarantee me even a semblance of what colours I would want for my older, irreplaceable dragons. The chances of me getting the exact colour combination I wanted would literally be one in
millions. For 350g a pop, no less.
I certainly think that getting the exact eyes you want from a 150g scattersight is much more feasible, yet it's some great injustice?
[quote name="painesgrey" date="2018-06-14 10:48:54" ]
[quote name="Volinolona" date="2018-06-14 10:06:21" ]All previous updates have been inclusive of older and irreplaceable dragons. New colors? I can scatter scroll that 7-digit Imp and give him a new paint job. [/quote]
I honestly don't understand this comparison. Older dragons were certainly left out of the colour wheel expansion, and even a scatter wouldn't guarantee me even a semblance of what colours I would want for my older, irreplaceable dragons. The chances of me getting the exact colour combination I wanted would literally be one in [b]millions[/b]. For 350g a pop, no less.
I certainly think that getting the exact eyes you want from a 150g scattersight is much more feasible, yet it's some great injustice?
[/quote]
I wouldn't think it 'much more feasible.' I read the chance for Primal - which is what a lot of people want - is below a 1% chance. While I haven't rolled Scattersights, I have dealt with under 1% chances before, and let me tell you, they are [i]horrible[/i] things. My main point, however, was that these dragons don't even have a chance to be what their caretakers want them to be - even with the scrolls having more variety, they are still always available, which means there is always a chance for the dragon to get the colors the user wants. That's not the same with the vials.
painesgrey wrote on 2018-06-14 10:48:54:
Volinolona wrote on 2018-06-14 10:06:21:
All previous updates have been inclusive of older and irreplaceable dragons. New colors? I can scatter scroll that 7-digit Imp and give him a new paint job.
I honestly don't understand this comparison. Older dragons were certainly left out of the colour wheel expansion, and even a scatter wouldn't guarantee me even a semblance of what colours I would want for my older, irreplaceable dragons. The chances of me getting the exact colour combination I wanted would literally be one in
millions. For 350g a pop, no less.
I certainly think that getting the exact eyes you want from a 150g scattersight is much more feasible, yet it's some great injustice?
I wouldn't think it 'much more feasible.' I read the chance for Primal - which is what a lot of people want - is below a 1% chance. While I haven't rolled Scattersights, I have dealt with under 1% chances before, and let me tell you, they are
horrible things. My main point, however, was that these dragons don't even have a chance to be what their caretakers want them to be - even with the scrolls having more variety, they are still always available, which means there is always a chance for the dragon to get the colors the user wants. That's not the same with the vials.
