Loving the fact that pinglists are now an on-site feature! Great idea and I see the security and convenience of it.
I am also echoing the concerns in this thread about how to deal with -for lack of a better word - community pinglists like Dom Teams, Accent artists, G1 hoarders, etc use them. It would be fantastic, if a solution for those oftentimes quite elaborate pinglists is found.
Loving the fact that pinglists are now an on-site feature! Great idea and I see the security and convenience of it.
I am also echoing the concerns in this thread about how to deal with -for lack of a better word - community pinglists like Dom Teams, Accent artists, G1 hoarders, etc use them. It would be fantastic, if a solution for those oftentimes quite elaborate pinglists is found.
[quote name="Xhaztol" date="2023-10-26 10:34:32" ]
[quote name="Aequorin" date="2023-10-26 10:22:25" ]
[b]Mass pings are not disabled yet, nor have we determined a date for it.[/b] This [b]transition period[/b] is the time [b]for players to use the system[/b] and provide their feedback before any caps are implemented.
[/quote]
Just wanted to signal boost what @Aequorin posted a little bit back. We totally get this is an adjustment, and we totally recognize that we may not be accounting for 100% of use cases, but that's why we have forums in the first place!
There are a lot of good points being made and a lot of thoughtful feedback starting to form. Appreciate everyone participating in the discussion in a respectful way. [emoji=sunglasses size=1]
[/quote]
I think most of us are aware that mass pinging isn't going away yet it is just THE FEAR. And we are loudly telling you we do not want this. I'd glad you guys are reading what we're saying but the fact that so many people are mentioning it doesn't mean we don't know, it means we are very passionate about it not changing.
Xhaztol wrote on 2023-10-26 10:34:32:
Aequorin wrote on 2023-10-26 10:22:25:
Mass pings are not disabled yet, nor have we determined a date for it. This transition period is the time for players to use the system and provide their feedback before any caps are implemented.
Just wanted to signal boost what @
Aequorin posted a little bit back. We totally get this is an adjustment, and we totally recognize that we may not be accounting for 100% of use cases, but that's why we have forums in the first place!
There are a lot of good points being made and a lot of thoughtful feedback starting to form. Appreciate everyone participating in the discussion in a respectful way.
I think most of us are aware that mass pinging isn't going away yet it is just THE FEAR. And we are loudly telling you we do not want this. I'd glad you guys are reading what we're saying but the fact that so many people are mentioning it doesn't mean we don't know, it means we are very passionate about it not changing.
I really love this update, but there are some things simply yet untackled. Specifically, the ability of non-owners to ping (things like the Marketplace pinglist, the Swipp pinglist, raffle pinglists, various public-adjacent pinglists will be impossible to be used) and I think this can be tackled by adding a function to the pinglist management page in which the owner allows specific, trusted users to use said pinglist.
On the other hand, the massive GASP and G1 Hell projects have received a killing blow which is tragic. A ton of people use GASP and G1 Hell to find buyers as well as to find sellers, like, they're such incredibly intricate systems with so much thought put into them that with this current site-supported pinglist system it simply cannot be replicated. Dedicated and skilled players created a tag system that allows skin sellers and skin buyers to both send out pings for specific creations and to receive pings while keeping undesired content from appearing. Individual G1, G2 Imperial, specific date pings- they're all going bust too.
Staff, please don't retire the mass pinglist option until we get some form of solution for this. This is a wonderful update but, as it is with everything, it needs some polishing!
Edit: don't worry, I'm fully aware it's not going away yet but the feedback is crucial
I really love this update, but there are some things simply yet untackled. Specifically, the ability of non-owners to ping (things like the Marketplace pinglist, the Swipp pinglist, raffle pinglists, various public-adjacent pinglists will be impossible to be used) and I think this can be tackled by adding a function to the pinglist management page in which the owner allows specific, trusted users to use said pinglist.
On the other hand, the massive GASP and G1 Hell projects have received a killing blow which is tragic. A ton of people use GASP and G1 Hell to find buyers as well as to find sellers, like, they're such incredibly intricate systems with so much thought put into them that with this current site-supported pinglist system it simply cannot be replicated. Dedicated and skilled players created a tag system that allows skin sellers and skin buyers to both send out pings for specific creations and to receive pings while keeping undesired content from appearing. Individual G1, G2 Imperial, specific date pings- they're all going bust too.
Staff, please don't retire the mass pinglist option until we get some form of solution for this. This is a wonderful update but, as it is with everything, it needs some polishing!
Edit: don't worry, I'm fully aware it's not going away yet but the feedback is crucial
Appreciate all the work the FR team does, looking forward to the improvement of this feature over time as well. It’s important to remember that player feedback matters, and helps the devs make choices that help us players and the QoL of the game. The pinglist feature has just been rolled out and I’m sure the team did plenty of testing and planning before implementing this. It’s our job to give constructive criticism so that this new feature can be tweaked and improved.
As for my own thoughts:
This rollout was a bit messy, but I appreciate the team giving us players the chance to provide feedback. I am glad mass pings aren’t phasing out for a while. This will give us plenty of time to compare the old system with the new and develop a feedback loop.
At a first glance, I don’t really like that only the owner of the pinglist can use it. This makes finding users who have special interests like Special ID Hunting, G1 collecting, or skin sales/trades much more difficult to find, and in the long run will make it more difficult for people selling dragons or skins to get eyes on their posts.
I understand the need to eliminate third party pinglists due to the potential for harassment (it has been an issue) as well as refining an in-house brand and eliminating the need to use third party apps. At the end of the day FR is a business. I think that in the coming weeks the team will get more feedback and be able to go from there.
Edit: A bit of a suggestion, but could staff work with the users who maintain larger offsite pinglists to potentially find a means of integrating the work the community has done into the site itself?
Additional edit: PvP coli oooo
Appreciate all the work the FR team does, looking forward to the improvement of this feature over time as well. It’s important to remember that player feedback matters, and helps the devs make choices that help us players and the QoL of the game. The pinglist feature has just been rolled out and I’m sure the team did plenty of testing and planning before implementing this. It’s our job to give constructive criticism so that this new feature can be tweaked and improved.
As for my own thoughts:
This rollout was a bit messy, but I appreciate the team giving us players the chance to provide feedback. I am glad mass pings aren’t phasing out for a while. This will give us plenty of time to compare the old system with the new and develop a feedback loop.
At a first glance, I don’t really like that only the owner of the pinglist can use it. This makes finding users who have special interests like Special ID Hunting, G1 collecting, or skin sales/trades much more difficult to find, and in the long run will make it more difficult for people selling dragons or skins to get eyes on their posts.
I understand the need to eliminate third party pinglists due to the potential for harassment (it has been an issue) as well as refining an in-house brand and eliminating the need to use third party apps. At the end of the day FR is a business. I think that in the coming weeks the team will get more feedback and be able to go from there.
Edit: A bit of a suggestion, but could staff work with the users who maintain larger offsite pinglists to potentially find a means of integrating the work the community has done into the site itself?
Additional edit: PvP coli oooo
[quote name="888" date="2023-10-26 10:21:29" ]
[quote name="Aequorin" date="2023-10-26 10:04:10" ]
Hi folks, thank you for sharing your concerns and your feedback with us regarding the sunsetting of mass-pings.
Part of the decision making process with pinglists involved the ongoing and widespread harassment via off-site spreadsheets by malicious third-parties. When we reviewed the situation, we determined that even if we were able to identify the responsible party, these off-site spreadsheets remain open to public anonymous edits. This would mean once a malicious third-party gained access to your spreadsheet URL, they wouldn't even need a Flight Rising account to engage in harassment by exploiting our (legal, regulatory, and literal) inability to review offsite identifying data.
This is a new system, mass pings aren't capped/sunset yet, and we will be watching and monitoring pinglist use data. This transition period is the time for you to play with the feature, work with it, use it, and give us your feedback on your experience using the new system. We can and are launching this with the understanding we may need to re-evaluate, but we can't go back to the open-ended and offsite system that allowed for ongoing harassment campaigns.
[/quote]
I understand that, but I do feel that making such wide sweeping changes is not the way to go. I'd be happy with the original mass-ping functionality and the new tool being usable side by side. Dom, hatcheries, skin shops, G1 collectors, and old/retired item pinglists cannot be easily collected into a series of subscribable pinglists. This concretely affects a thousand or more people. I don't know if the intention is to push people offsite onto platforms like Discord to host sales instead (with an out of site, out of mind approach to harassment if it starts happening there) but I can promise you that's what will happen if these pinglists become defunct on site.
The forums are such a lively place right now. Not many sites a decade old can still say that. Please help retain your players here, instead of mass migration away to talk.
[/quote]
Hi @888, thank you for your feedback! I want to stress again, [b]mass-pings are not disabled yet, nor do we have a date yet for implementing any cap[/b]. As I noted in my initial reply:
[quote][b]We can and are launching this with the understanding we may need to re-evaluate,[/b] but we can't go back to the open-ended and offsite system that allowed for ongoing harassment campaigns.[/quote]
We aren't saying "this is how it is, deal with it." We're saying "We've have this new feature for you! These are our longer term plans, [b]but we don't have a hard date yet so nothing is immediately changing[/b]. In the meantime, play with the new feature and let us know what you think!"
888 wrote on 2023-10-26 10:21:29:
Aequorin wrote on 2023-10-26 10:04:10:
Hi folks, thank you for sharing your concerns and your feedback with us regarding the sunsetting of mass-pings.
Part of the decision making process with pinglists involved the ongoing and widespread harassment via off-site spreadsheets by malicious third-parties. When we reviewed the situation, we determined that even if we were able to identify the responsible party, these off-site spreadsheets remain open to public anonymous edits. This would mean once a malicious third-party gained access to your spreadsheet URL, they wouldn't even need a Flight Rising account to engage in harassment by exploiting our (legal, regulatory, and literal) inability to review offsite identifying data.
This is a new system, mass pings aren't capped/sunset yet, and we will be watching and monitoring pinglist use data. This transition period is the time for you to play with the feature, work with it, use it, and give us your feedback on your experience using the new system. We can and are launching this with the understanding we may need to re-evaluate, but we can't go back to the open-ended and offsite system that allowed for ongoing harassment campaigns.
I understand that, but I do feel that making such wide sweeping changes is not the way to go. I'd be happy with the original mass-ping functionality and the new tool being usable side by side. Dom, hatcheries, skin shops, G1 collectors, and old/retired item pinglists cannot be easily collected into a series of subscribable pinglists. This concretely affects a thousand or more people. I don't know if the intention is to push people offsite onto platforms like Discord to host sales instead (with an out of site, out of mind approach to harassment if it starts happening there) but I can promise you that's what will happen if these pinglists become defunct on site.
The forums are such a lively place right now. Not many sites a decade old can still say that. Please help retain your players here, instead of mass migration away to talk.
Hi @
888, thank you for your feedback! I want to stress again,
mass-pings are not disabled yet, nor do we have a date yet for implementing any cap. As I noted in my initial reply:
Quote:
We can and are launching this with the understanding we may need to re-evaluate, but we can't go back to the open-ended and offsite system that allowed for ongoing harassment campaigns.
We aren't saying "this is how it is, deal with it." We're saying "We've have this new feature for you! These are our longer term plans,
but we don't have a hard date yet so nothing is immediately changing. In the meantime, play with the new feature and let us know what you think!"
[quote name="theNightmareKing" date="2023-10-26 10:26:35" ]
While I'm very excited to have a neat pinglist for my art shop, as other people said removing mass-pinging is a total killer for GASP, dom organising ect. what I see unmentioned is also gem/treasure trades.
It's just [b]impossible [/b]to "work with this new feature" [i](making hundreds of pinglists is one thing, but then not even being able to use them at mass since only the creator can)[/i], I know this is early news but I beg you on behalf of the skin and accent makers/collectors, reconsider removing mass pings.
[/quote]
I didn't even think about the fact that selling UMAs through the GASP pinglist would be impossible with this new system. Which sucks for anyone trying to sell, and sucks for buyers hoping to be pinged for specific themes (I know I'd never find half the cool UMAs I do if I had to manually hunt for them!)
theNightmareKing wrote on 2023-10-26 10:26:35:
While I'm very excited to have a neat pinglist for my art shop, as other people said removing mass-pinging is a total killer for GASP, dom organising ect. what I see unmentioned is also gem/treasure trades.
It's just impossible to "work with this new feature" (making hundreds of pinglists is one thing, but then not even being able to use them at mass since only the creator can), I know this is early news but I beg you on behalf of the skin and accent makers/collectors, reconsider removing mass pings.
I didn't even think about the fact that selling UMAs through the GASP pinglist would be impossible with this new system. Which sucks for anyone trying to sell, and sucks for buyers hoping to be pinged for specific themes (I know I'd never find half the cool UMAs I do if I had to manually hunt for them!)
[quote name="jotunn" date="2023-10-26 10:39:20" ]
It will be like being completely shut out from the community. :) Which I’m sure is the intended effect.
[/quote]
I fully agree with jotunn, not to mention the creativity and activity will dwindle with this, why try making a skin shop when noone's going to see it anyway, why try for dominance when noone's participating
Seems like it's going to the other end of the extreme!
jotunn wrote on 2023-10-26 10:39:20:
It will be like being completely shut out from the community. :) Which I’m sure is the intended effect.
I fully agree with jotunn, not to mention the creativity and activity will dwindle with this, why try making a skin shop when noone's going to see it anyway, why try for dominance when noone's participating
Seems like it's going to the other end of the extreme!
Oh yeah this'll get real complicated real fast. The idea is great. But the execution leaves something to be desired. If you can't use other people's pinglists, and you can't add people to a pinglist yourself, how's that gonna affect all the aforementioned big ping systems? GASP is the most commonly used pinglist on the entire site AFAIK, and it's soooo so complicated. The system proposed would only really be functional for smaller personal threads.
Additionally, is there a function to use pinglists from one thread in another thread? I know people will move their skin and art shops to new threads for a fresh start, and they just use that old pinglist because it's already good and made and all that. What do they do when mass pings are officially disabled?
And I'm also seconding a co-owner feature for pinglists.
Overall, it would be really nice to, one, have a system that works entirely on-site, and two, not have to worry about updating changed usernames and such. But it's gonna need a lot more features and thought put into it before mass pings are disabled.
Oh yeah this'll get real complicated real fast. The idea is great. But the execution leaves something to be desired. If you can't use other people's pinglists, and you can't add people to a pinglist yourself, how's that gonna affect all the aforementioned big ping systems? GASP is the most commonly used pinglist on the entire site AFAIK, and it's soooo so complicated. The system proposed would only really be functional for smaller personal threads.
Additionally, is there a function to use pinglists from one thread in another thread? I know people will move their skin and art shops to new threads for a fresh start, and they just use that old pinglist because it's already good and made and all that. What do they do when mass pings are officially disabled?
And I'm also seconding a co-owner feature for pinglists.
Overall, it would be really nice to, one, have a system that works entirely on-site, and two, not have to worry about updating changed usernames and such. But it's gonna need a lot more features and thought put into it before mass pings are disabled.
I'll echo what everyone is saying here that, while the pinglist feature is nice, it's useless for anything managed by a community or group of people. More than that, disabling mass pings kills entire community-run aspects of the site, like dom organizing, GASP pings, nest rentals, etc.
I understand and appreciate the efforts to stop pinglist harassment, but the way this update is worded, if implemented, will result in people moving to Discord for pings, and inevitably leaving out players who don't want to/can't use Discord from anything that moves from in-site pings to Discord pings.
Also, how does that leave people who are involved with community-run efforts (such as dom) and blocking? Because there's an issue in which if a pinglist runner has users blocked and these users can't join a pinglist... Does that mean a pinglist runner need to never ever block people? And the workaround being allowing people who are blocked to join pinglists created by people who have them blocked, which could be another harassment issue?
I feel that if this feature is to be implemented to replace the spreadsheet-based pinglists, there's a lot of thought to still be put into it. It's great that staff is open to feedback, though!
I'll echo what everyone is saying here that, while the pinglist feature is nice, it's useless for anything managed by a community or group of people. More than that, disabling mass pings kills entire community-run aspects of the site, like dom organizing, GASP pings, nest rentals, etc.
I understand and appreciate the efforts to stop pinglist harassment, but the way this update is worded, if implemented, will result in people moving to Discord for pings, and inevitably leaving out players who don't want to/can't use Discord from anything that moves from in-site pings to Discord pings.
Also, how does that leave people who are involved with community-run efforts (such as dom) and blocking? Because there's an issue in which if a pinglist runner has users blocked and these users can't join a pinglist... Does that mean a pinglist runner need to never ever block people? And the workaround being allowing people who are blocked to join pinglists created by people who have them blocked, which could be another harassment issue?
I feel that if this feature is to be implemented to replace the spreadsheet-based pinglists, there's a lot of thought to still be put into it. It's great that staff is open to feedback, though!
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I am trapped as the strong wind flies
And when the stars won't shine for us
Then what’s to gain?
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[quote name="Dragonwyspr" date="2023-10-26 10:44:56" ]
Additionally, is there a function to use pinglists from one thread in another thread? I know people will move their skin and art shops to new threads for a fresh start, and they just use that old pinglist because it's already good and made and all that. What do they do when mass pings are officially disabled?
[/quote]
Pinglists are not locked to specific threads - they can be used in exactly the same manner singular player pings can. The main difference is that they ping multiple players rather than just one.
Dragonwyspr wrote on 2023-10-26 10:44:56:
Additionally, is there a function to use pinglists from one thread in another thread? I know people will move their skin and art shops to new threads for a fresh start, and they just use that old pinglist because it's already good and made and all that. What do they do when mass pings are officially disabled?
Pinglists are not locked to specific threads - they can be used in exactly the same manner singular player pings can. The main difference is that they ping multiple players rather than just one.
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