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[quote name="Sopheroo" date="2018-12-10 15:20:51" ] [quote]Earth is actually untouchable due to what seems like internal site mechanic issues.[/quote] Earth isn't untouchable - people* are just afraid to fight us now, which is the problem. The problem isn't us - the problem is that people are SCARED of using their dom banks, now. They're scared that conquesting means losing money, only to end up with a 2nd place. * : Nature Flight not included, as they fought us this year. [/quote] With all due respect, no, I really do think Earth is untouchable due to some internal site mechanic issue. I think something needs to be changed with the ratio, because as I see it now, Earth has a heck of an advantage no other flight has. Which isn't Earth's fault! Earth has no control over how the site works! But I think it contributes. Trust me, I'm an acolight, I know what it's like to have people scared to fight you and how frustrating it is. But I honestly think there's something to be said about the fact lightning only managed to flip Earth twice with 20% fatigue and people - including pebbles - actively sending dragons to them to flip Earth while Earth did not have a public buy. During LvN3, Nature flipped us so many times. You could see fatigue dragging us down. It felt like fatigue didn't effect Earth at all, which is disconcerting. Edit: I see you edited your post, I still think my reply here is accurate and I'd like to address some new things you said. On the whole, I think your generalizations are inaccurate. I think you misunderstand people seeing earth as this impossible mountain [s]hah[/s] to trump as people preferring being "comfortable than dominating". Flights would love to dominate! But when it comes to a domination where you're fighting earth for it? It's not worth it. It's not worth the drained bank because you don't have a chance because as I said, something seems to be wrong internally that makes it impossible to beat earth even when they're bogged down by 20% fatigue. Which again, [i]is not your fault![/i] But it's a fact that remains all the same. I think if the playerbase did not do dominance as we do, the ratio and everything else would be perfect. But I think because of the way the playerbase plays dominance, something needs to change.

Thanks @Valoria for making a point even if against my argument, you managed to explain exactly what I mean about Earth being an "untouchable" flight in dom mechanics, as they are right now. Which, for me, means there needs to be a change in dom mechanics, though obviously the conclusion is different for everyone.

To not repeat myself with everything I've already said in the thread, I'll add a couple more notes of strictly objective nature. Let's run the numbers with the current population of each flight:

Earth 12188
Fire 24742
Wind 43588
Water 27331

Lightning 41003
Ice 40178
Light 37566
Shadow 61608

Nature 39075
Plague 44430
Arcane 56478

Total 428187

Earth represents the 2.84% of the population of the site, and they get, as it stands, somewhere between 33-50% of the weeks of dom, which is a significant wealth boost. I don't know what your definition of "fairness" is, but to me, this can't be called "fair". Yes, Earth works hard for dom - but so do all the other members of other flights and their dom squads! However, they just don't get dom because not enough people in their flight are actively exalting, and/or because the flight as a whole, as @Valoria pointed out, has given up on fighting Earth because of the numbers.

Dominance being based on the % of exalted dragons per active lair was meant to be a mechanic that helped small flights win against big flights with enough effort. What it's doing right now is the exact opposite - it's penalising the many in favour of the few, because there's one flight with a few active exalters and no one else can stand up to them.

Does this mean Earth should stop exalting? Of course not! That would be controlling their play style, and that's bad. Everyone plays however they want.

However, those of you who suggested that those who care about dom switch flights need to understand that implying that being in one flight over the others precludes one's chances at dominance is ALSO controlling playstyle. People are in a given flight not just for dom, but for the community, the aesthetic, sometimes the lore...

You Earthlings, if Earth suddenly became bad at dom, would you leave just so you could have dom again? Maybe some of you would, but not all of you, I'd bet. And even those who would, wouldn't you be upset (to say the least) that you can no longer have dom AND the community you love, just because suddenly some other flight took over and/or suddenly everyone in Earth lost interest in exalting? Also, tell you what, here's an additional suggestion: free flight change for everyone if the dom mechanics are changed. Yep, so all of you who joined Earth for the dom can change if Earth somehow becomes bad at dom (I doubt it) after whatever change is applied.

But I must maintain the point that, regardless of player choices, it's NOT FAIR that someone who cares about dom needs to be in ONE flight over literally all of the others. I will listen to opinions on everything, but I am unmovable on this point. Dominance is a big mechanic in Flight Rising, it gives a significant boost to wealth (yes there are dom shops, but you can't buy discount lair expansions with dom shops!), and I completely recognise and accept that some flights will always be better than others at it. But that one flight would be so much better than the others that almost no one ever gets dom outside of them, that's past the line for me. If you're bent on not introducing anything close to dom cooldown, then make dom fatigue 50% or thereabouts. That way, indefinite dom is not impossible, just exceedingly hard for any flight, and even double dom would be an incredible accomplishment (as hard as having dom six times in a row with the current mechanics, if the calculation is linear. Probably about four or five if it's incremental, but I didn't run the numbers).

Earth loves its community and so do we. I joined Light when I registered for a lot of reasons, and dominance was one of them. ONE of them doesn't mean that I'm in Light just for dom, nor will I ever leave Light just because of dom. I have friends here, I love the aesthetic and lore, and I appreciate that all flights are great and born equal, but no other flight suits me as much as Light does. I'm sure that other people feel the same about their flights. I don't want to have to worry about whether or not Earth is exalting because it might just screw up the dom plans of everyone else without even trying, not because Earth is oh so bad (it's not!), just because the dominance mechanic almost no longer allows anyone else to win.

Honestly, all I want is to stay in the community I've grown into and see more variety on the dom billboard. Is that really too much to ask? Is that really unfair to ask?

The thing is, the very thing you are complaining about? FR CAN'T CONTROL.

Yes, as it stands right now, if you want to get dom more often you have two options: Motivate your own flight ,which might not be easy or even possible due to flight size and the fact not everyone is interested in dom OR you move flights. It is as simple as that. Players who were big time interested in dom, move to earth, which is one of the reasons they have an advantage: users who were interested in dom, moved there and started using their resources towards earth dom.

There is nothing that FR can do to equalize that, because players have freedom of choice. We can choose whether or not we want to be in a specific flight. This means that not only do players who are interested in dom move to the dom powerhouses, but also that players who are less interested in dom move to flights not known to be powerhouses. There are also players who care nothing about dom and only about aesthetics and they just stay where they are.

This means that flights who are known for dom, gain heavy dom players.

Take the Altador Cup on Neopets. for years, Faerieland was known to be the worst at it. So, I believe one year, all the heavy ACers moved to Faerieland and faerieland, if not won, came in high that year. Because the players who were good at doing the AC related stuff, were on one team. That is what is happening on FR. Because players can decide where they want to go, those who are most interested in dom leave the flights they are in, and head towards the flights that are best at dom.

As it stands, unless FR just gives each flight dominance one after another, there is nothing that can be done. The mulitpler is in effect because otherwise, smaller flights would have literally no chance unless no other flight exalted a single dragon (if I am doing this right) if everyone in Earth exalted one dragon, it would only take 20% of Lightning's players to exalt one dragon each to tie.

Otherwise, FR would have to basically divide the player base up, so that each flight is equal, and not allow players to tie.

Dominance is a team sport, and if the team is motivated, they will and should win. If a flight cannot be motivated to do what it takes to win, then no, they should not get dom handed to them, just because they don't get dom often.

[quote name="Sopheroo" date="2018-12-10 15:20:51" ] The problem isn't us - the problem is that flight aren't keen on using their whole dom banks, now. They're scared that conquesting means losing money. [b]People aren't willing to conquest anymore[/b] - which gives us free reign to do so - because it requires less of us. [/quote]That is actually statistically incorrect. Last year, there were 19 weeks where at least 1 flight had announced a conquest battle. 9 of those weeks had contested conquests. If you count this week and next week, 2018 will also have 19 weeks where at least 1 flight had announced a conquest battle. The difference so far is that with next week's announced Shadow vs Fire battle, 2018 will have 6 contested conquest battles. Also worth pointing out: In neither year did a flight that was conquest pushing lose to a flight that was not conquest pushing. So far this year, Earth has conquested 4 times including this week. Only Ice has conquested as often, amd Ice was successful 2 of those times(This also shows the statement that Earth is willing to conquest more often than other flights is inaccurate). Light has conquested and won 3 times. Shadow, Lightning and Water have all conquested and won twice this year. I personally think flights have just realized the reality which is that a contested conquest is going to be expensive, and those will take time both to prepare for and recover from. I do not have a solution to the 'issue' with dominance, I just wanted to post some stats... I personally am still on the fence with regard to feeling like there actually IS an issue, I view dominance as being similar in many ways to real life sports and it is not uncommon for certain teams to dominate their respective sport for periods of time. The major difference is that in real life sports, teams do not have the option of not competing with one another, and on FR flights do. I personally do not think anything should be done to change the way dominance works UNLESS Earth somehow managed to beat out Fire and/or Shadow next week, as they are both conquest pushing.

(sorry, got interrupted and had to leave)

Yes, it would be nice to have variety on the leaderboard, but there is no way to do that with the current set up of dom, as it is based upon a team's effort at dom. If other teams don't put in the effort to achieve dom, then they simply don't get it.

Fairness is a myth in that competition cannot ever be fair in results, unless wins are handed out. Not everyone is as good as the next person at a particular 'sport' and some people aren't even interested, and when you are forced to join a team, that can harm that team's chances of winning. But, that is the drawback of a team sport when players are forced to join. With FR, the players simply have a choice of which team to join.

This is why I think either dom, as it stands, needs to go, and bring in an entirely different system, whether or not they keep the competitive aspect (someone suggested a system where all flights can achieve dominance if they exalt enough dragons to do so, in a given week. I thought perhaps giving a slightly bigger dominance boost to the teams that come in first or some sort of exclusive reward).

Or, they need to tackle the problem from the other end: exalting. Make exalting more interesting to a broader base (such as an exalt shop) and those players who start exalting might become more interested in dominance rewards (especially if the dominance rewards were tied in to the exalt shop, so that users who gain dominance get a discount or perhaps other items to purchase or something) and thus more interested in dom. I personally think that making exalting more appealing would be a better way of going than trying to make Dominance 'fair' for all flights. (as I don't think it can be done as it stands)

[quote name="Jessyta" date="2018-12-10 16:15:56" ] I do not have a solution to the 'issue' with dominance, I just wanted to post some stats... I personally am still on the fence with regard to feeling like there actually IS an issue, I view dominance as being similar in many ways to real life sports and it is not uncommon for certain teams to dominate their respective sport for periods of time. The major difference is that in real life sports, teams do not have the option of not competing with one another, and on FR flights do. I personally do not think anything should be done to change the way dominance works UNLESS Earth somehow managed to beat out Fire and/or Shadow next week, as they are both conquest pushing. [/quote] I just wanted to say that this is exactly how I feel, particularly in regards to it being like real life sports.

Now, the part I don't see is that Earth will hold back when conquest battles are announced. Announce a battle, we sell our fodder for the week, or we hang onto it for next week. If no one wants it.. we take it. If beastclans are in second or third place, people really aren't exalting very much.

Earth didn't win during Lightning vs Ice, we sent them fodder, we boarded their fodder. So just announce your plans? It's like playing soccer. You want the field? Say so.

Profit pushing is another beast and doesn't count.

[quote name="Jussie" date="2018-12-10 16:44:08" ] Now, the part I don't see is that Earth will hold back when conquest battles are announced. Announce a battle, we sell our fodder for the week, or we hang onto it for next week. If no one wants it.. we take it. If beastclans are in second or third place, people really aren't exalting very much. Earth didn't win during Lightning vs Ice, we sent them fodder, we boarded their fodder. So just announce your plans? It's like playing soccer. You want the field? Say so. Profit pushing is another beast and doesn't count. [/quote] But just because nobody has claimed the week doesn't mean it should automatically go to earth. The beastclans being in second whilst you're in first could be indicative of people feeling like there's no point in trying to beat you, but I really don't know.

[quote name="@SilverQuark" date="2018-12-10 15:51:45" ] Earth represents the 2.84% of the population of the site, and they get, as it stands, somewhere between 33-50% of the weeks of dom, which is a significant wealth boost. I don't know what your definition of "fairness" is, but to me, this can't be called "fair". Yes, Earth works hard for dom - but so do all the other members of other flights and their dom squads! However, they just don't get dom because not enough people in their flight are actively exalting, and/or because the flight as a whole, as @/Valoria pointed out, has given up on fighting Earth because of the numbers. [/quote] To me it can be called fair. Earth players did more work than other flight's players, so Earth players get the rewards. No, not "all the other members of other flights" work hard at exalting and dom. If they did, then the ratio would do what it is supposed to do and balance those numbers out. Some flights just have a lot smaller proportion of people in them who exalt and do dom things. Earth has a larger proportion of people who exalt and do dom things. Their members proportionately work harder. Why should they be penalized for exalting a lot? I don't want dominance handed out on a turn taking basis, so that each flight gets dom four times a year or so that each flight gets dom based on their size. (Which seems to be what you're implying with Earth being 3% of the site but getting 33% of dom not being fair in your opinion.) [quote name="SilverQuark" date="2018-12-10 15:51:45" ] Dominance being based on the % of exalted dragons per active lair was meant to be a mechanic that helped small flights win against big flights with enough effort. What it's doing right now is the exact opposite - it's penalising the many in favour of the few, because there's one flight with a few active exalters and no one else can stand up to them. [/quote] No it isn't penalizing the many. It is doing what it is supposed to be doing and equalizing things. If 10 of the 10k people in Earth are exalting 10 dragons each, that is the same as 50 of 50k people in Arcane (approximate numbers) exalting 10 dragons each. The larger flights have a lot more people in them who can be potentially motivated to be part of dom. I truly think one of the main reasons Light was so successful was their "anyone can dom" philosophy, that tried to get as many people involved as possible, even if it was not directly exalting related, and even if it seemed like a small contribution. As those small contributions add up. What wouldn't be fair to me is if you told Earth people that their contributions now only get counted for half. It's a site culture thing. I understand that it stinks if you like dom and a lot of people have moved to your flight because it has a reputation that it doesn't do dom much specifically because they don't want to do dom much, so it makes it that much more difficult to get people involved, but that isn't something that a ratio can really counteract. There was a long time where Earth wasn't known for dom. And I still remember hearing about some of the conflict when people who were into dom came into the flight and made it more dom oriented. At least some of those people left to find flights that were less dom oriented. Again, that stinks if you like dom and are in one of those flights, but people could move around again, so just handing it out or just penalizing smaller flights isn't the solution in my opinion. [quote name="@SilverQuark" date="2018-12-10 15:51:45" ] However, those of you who suggested that those who care about dom switch flights need to understand that implying that being in one flight over the others precludes one's chances at dominance is ALSO controlling playstyle. People are in a given flight not just for dom, but for the community, the aesthetic, sometimes the lore... You Earthlings, if Earth suddenly became bad at dom, would you leave just so you could have dom again? Maybe some of you would, but not all of you, I'd bet. And even those who would, wouldn't you be upset (to say the least) that you can no longer have dom AND the community you love, just because suddenly some other flight took over and/or suddenly everyone in Earth lost interest in exalting? ... But I must maintain the point that, regardless of player choices, it's NOT FAIR that someone who cares about dom needs to be in ONE flight over literally all of the others. I will listen to opinions on everything, but I am unmovable on this point. [/quote] Yes, there are lots of reasons why people might choose a flight. But you need to weigh those factors as to which is the most important to you. I hate Light's yellow eyes. I hate them more now after the revamp than I did before. I hate that no one is willing to challenge Light in dom, because profit pushes don't excite me as much as conquest ones do. So I could switch to another flight where I like the eyes more or to another flight that does more conquested battles. Except, I balance that with I like the dom team and love the "everyone can dom" philosophy, and I love the lore. Those two things are enough of a draw that it outweighs the drawbacks. Other people need to decide what they prefer more. And, yes, if Earth became bad at dom (or even just not getting competition, which is why I feel some dom people left Light), then I fully expect them to likely move somewhere else. Just as people moved in there for dom and people who didn't like lots of dom talk moved out of Earth. And just like people switch flights all of the time for various reasons, including dom. It isn't an easy decision to decide what factors are most important to you, but it is better than telling others that they can't exalt or that their exalts are going to count for less to make things fair. You don't have to be in one flight for dom, as you say. Earth wasn't a powerhouse before, and likely won't be again at some point. Just as Ice, Plague, Light, etc. all stopped being the top dog at various points. Other flights can step up and have pushes. Yes, contested conquests can be expensive. But uncontested conquests are less so, and profit pushes (even with an "average" buy as Lightning had last week) are even less so. As others have said with comparisons to sports teams, sometimes dynasties happen, and a team is just really good for awhile. Other teams don't make rules to make the good team worse, instead they try to make themselves better. I much prefer rewards and incentives to restrictions and punishments. And I would like to feel there is a way to make exalting fun for more people so more flights [i]want[/i] to go for dom rather than penalizing Earth for just happening to be good at it right now. [quote name="@SilverQuark" date="2018-12-10 15:51:45" ] Honestly, all I want is to stay in the community I've grown into and see more variety on the dom billboard. Is that really too much to ask? Is that really unfair to ask? [/quote] In my opinion it's unfair to ask when you are seeing people work hard for something and deciding they don't get the rewards for working hard and instead you want to penalize them and drag them down so that others can rise up. Instead of working on ways to make the others rise up on their own. I agree that the ratio can stink, especially when doing a contested conquest and the OOF dragons are counting for so much more. But I would prefer coming up with incentives rather than arbitrarily dishing out the rewards or penalizing hard work.