Suggestions

I think it would be possible to make aids to fit Sornieth aesthetics for most disabilities, but I don't know whether historical items like ear trumpets would be helpful or a little bit insulting/weird?

[quote name="Apocalyptichorse" date="2021-09-11 02:51:57" ] -clipped- But I’d love to see things like prosthetics, not only that but imagine flight based prosthetics? Magic infused ones for Arcane, bone ones for plague, wooden/flowery ones for nature etc etc that’d be awesome to see [/quote] Something like flight-based prosthetics would be super neat! If there are a couple of color options (2-3) per, it would probably increase their usability a lot outside of strictly flight stuff too

I am very supportive of the idea of a variety of adaptable apparel and things like leg braces, casts, prosthetics etc. but making it work is going to be difficult, due to how apparel works.

I think this needs to be approached from a unique angle. A "what if a dragon had a disability" angle, rather than trying to make dog and human stuff fit a dragon. Dragons fly, not being able to walk may not even be a problem? Except if you're a snapper. So wheelchairs, maybe aren't quite a dragon thing? The landscape isn't very ADA accessible either.

I did a dragon peg leg some years ago

The issue there is, apparel doesn't create white space like an accent does.. Although I suppose we could just have textured limb coverings, that fit the space exactly. A variety of textures like wood and metal. They would function much like gloves, carved to look like a limb.

As someone who has to use braces on my ankles, HUGE SUPPORT. I would love to see that represented (:

[quote name="SCB" date="2021-09-15 11:11:12" ] I think this needs to be approached from a unique angle. A "what if a dragon had a disability" angle, rather than trying to make dog and human stuff fit a dragon. Dragons fly, not being able to walk may not even be a problem? Except if you're a snapper. So wheelchairs, maybe aren't quite a dragon thing? The landscape isn't very ADA accessible either. [/quote] I agree with this in general, but I think the example of flight in particular doesn't quite work. In most flights (ie not wind) there's canonically at least some things that are done on the ground, including the trading post and dragons' lairs, and while for a Fae that might be okay, an imperial's wingspan would probably cause issues flying that low to the ground even outdoors. Y'know how it's hard to swim in water that's too shallow? Like that. So I think at least some short-distance ground mobility aids would be useful. Not to mention, a dragon's limbs are also probably its takeoff/landing gear, so even if they fly everywhere they'll need some form of aid for that. We can see on the F imp pose that the legs don't have to be fully flush with the body in flight, so what about a light wheel"chair" that braces around the hips similar to the pet wheelchairs earlier in the thread but sitting closer to the legs and has some (possibly magical) extra shock absorption? Truly bipedal breeds are a little harder to have work both in flight and on the ground though. (also am i dumb i don't see a blind eye type anywhere??)

[quote name="@Crowbar" date="2021-09-10 04:22:19" ] [quote name="fattycatty" date="2021-09-10 02:46:43" ] things like prosthetics may mess with the lineart and would be better as accents :( [/quote] ....all apparel messes with the lineart [/quote] Y’obviously don’t get what I mean ^^’’ A lot of irl prosthetics don’t have the entire leg, usually the thigh, knee joint, and a thin (but sturdy) pole for the ankle (to reduce weight I assume) The fact that it’s a thin pole would show the leg underneath, correct? Which would put hard work on the devs and artists to make a work-around (since just scribbling white under the prosthetic won’t work because it’d show on scenes.) Sure they could use the marva cloak as a starting point, but they’d have to figure out how to make *just* the leg disappear.

[quote name="Drakessis" date="2021-09-10 04:02:28" ] [quote name="fattycatty" date="2021-09-10 02:46:43" ] Take hearing aids for an example, were would you put them on a coatl? They don’t have ears, same for wcs and such. It’d be good at defining where the ears are on dragons who don’t have prominent ones, but... it might look ‘off’, plus I don’t think dragons have advanced enough tech for them in the lore (except for lightning), crutches wouldn’t really work as most poses have the dragons on all fours, essentially defeating the purpose, and things like prosthetics may mess with the lineart and would be better as accents :( [/quote] I actually think we have precedents for most of these concepts. Hearing aids: The teardrop earrings . While on the horns of some breeds, many sit in the ears! A hearing aid could probably be easily fitted for the horn-exceptions. (And Wildclaws are kind of a funny example, because they have super visible ear holes.) Crutches: We already have cane apparel/the NotN staff apparel, so more cane options or crutches would be neat! We've also seen canes included in site items, so staff is clearly aware of the desire for inclusion. Prostheses: The armored gauntlets/boots can already work as a stand-in for prostheses, and simply sit over the dragon's (almost entire) limb. The only difference is that prostheses would probably come in asymmetrical sets. Things like joint braces would probably be easy to include, too. So, support for this! [/quote] Ok, yeah, those are p good options but here’s a few points I wanna raise Gauntlets and the like will look like armor, which we already have. Unless it’s a cast, cyborg-esque or has something that (doesn’t literally) say ‘disability apparel’ it could easily be mistaken for an *actual* gauntlet, y’know? As for the canes, canes nowadays are sometimes used more as accessories irl than their original purpose, so unless it explicitly says ‘use for dragons who are hard of movement’ or something in the description, it wouldn’t exactly work. I’m pretty sure the canes added are to make dragons look rich and snobby haha And I’m gonna repeat what I said for crutches, many dragons are on all fours, completely. Crutches (or at least the ones I used) are for mobility *and* standing, so it wouldn’t make sense unless they’re holding them for another dragon :/ However I’m a big fan of that hearing aid idea!! I forgot about the earrings, so that’d definitely be a place to start

[quote name="fattycatty" date="2021-09-16 04:09:59" ] Ok, yeah, those are p good options but here’s a few points I wanna raise Gauntlets and the like will look like armor, which we already have. Unless it’s a cast, cyborg-esque or has something that (doesn’t literally) say ‘disability apparel’ it could easily be mistaken for an *actual* gauntlet, y’know? As for the canes, canes nowadays are sometimes used more as accessories irl than their original purpose, so unless it explicitly says ‘use for dragons who are hard of movement’ or something in the description, it wouldn’t exactly work. I’m pretty sure the canes added are to make dragons look rich and snobby haha And I’m gonna repeat what I said for crutches, many dragons are on all fours, completely. Crutches (or at least the ones I used) are for mobility *and* standing, so it wouldn’t make sense unless they’re holding them for another dragon :/ However I’m a big fan of that hearing aid idea!! I forgot about the earrings, so that’d definitely be a place to start [/quote] That just makes all those items even more worthwhile to add! They're adaptable. You can't get around the lack of transparent space in apparel- that doesn't mean prostheses aren't an option! Lifelike prostheses have existed for a long time, and photos from the 1800s and 1900s show examples of limbs that were neither particularly clunky, or especially "mechanical." There's plenty of designs that could be made based on historical examples and modern concepts that wouldn't just look like armor. ([i]I am aware the truth of the matter is that, in real life, prostheses designed aesthetic-first are often not functional daily use, and, in the case of some prototypes or similar "lifelike" robotic limbs, an undue financial blow on most users which doesn't always take the day to day functions they would desire from a prosthesis into mind- especially not when compared to most more utilitarian modern designs. But, in a fantasy setting, and where a team would need to work within the limits of their game's mechanics, these type of prostheses would be a creative, idealistic way to open doors for disability inclusion.[/i]) [center][img]https://1.bp.blogspot.com/-Xitjlrd0FsI/X2kNQesvVKI/AAAAAAAAZ84/-ssoPhXCPq4DXJlaIp_DESnZHYSgEfN2gCLcBGAsYHQ/s2048/artificial-limbs-James-Gillingham%2B%25288%2529.jpg[/img][/center] [center][img]https://i.pinimg.com/originals/28/31/4f/28314f3db96b46db7363791a39964434.jpg[/img][/center] Even if the item could just be mistaken for a gauntlet... Is that such a bad thing? It would just mean that the item would have the potential for more widespread usage, which is always a good thing when it comes to apparel. And with canes... Does the intention particularly matter? Adding more variety of canes and walking sticks would achieve inclusion just fine! I have dragons who use the cane/staff apparel for the aesthetic, some who use them because they're blind, and some who use them for mobility reasons- the fact that these items exist in the first place, regardless of the intention, is still a huge benefit to users who want to use these sorts of items for their disabled dragons. The crutches I can definitely see as a mechanical mystery, but, as someone mentioned earlier, there's also lots of space here to design mobility aids dragon-first; coming up with dedicated alternatives that convey a similar purpose would be nice. Apparel that's inclusive of disabilities doesn't have to exclude able-bodied dragons, or even be designed in a way that "singles out" disabled dragons- the point of including it in the first place would be to widen the potential of [i]all[/i] dragons' customization. It being versatile would be a great thing! It being simply taken into account with unrelated apparel updates, and not necessarily a standalone release, would also be great.

I actually really like this idea so totally support!

[quote name="Drakessis" date="2021-09-16 05:17:04" ] [quote name="fattycatty" date="2021-09-16 04:09:59" ] Ok, yeah, those are p good options but here’s a few points I wanna raise Gauntlets and the like will look like armor, which we already have. Unless it’s a cast, cyborg-esque or has something that (doesn’t literally) say ‘disability apparel’ it could easily be mistaken for an *actual* gauntlet, y’know? As for the canes, canes nowadays are sometimes used more as accessories irl than their original purpose, so unless it explicitly says ‘use for dragons who are hard of movement’ or something in the description, it wouldn’t exactly work. I’m pretty sure the canes added are to make dragons look rich and snobby haha And I’m gonna repeat what I said for crutches, many dragons are on all fours, completely. Crutches (or at least the ones I used) are for mobility *and* standing, so it wouldn’t make sense unless they’re holding them for another dragon :/ However I’m a big fan of that hearing aid idea!! I forgot about the earrings, so that’d definitely be a place to start [/quote] That just makes all those items even more worthwhile to add! They're adaptable. You can't get around the lack of transparent space in apparel- that doesn't mean prostheses aren't an option! Lifelike prostheses have existed for a long time, and photos from the 1800s and 1900s show examples of limbs that were neither particularly clunky, or especially "mechanical." There's plenty of designs that could be made based on historical examples and modern concepts that wouldn't just look like armor. ([i]I am aware the truth of the matter is that, in real life, prostheses designed aesthetic-first are often not functional daily use, and, in the case of some prototypes or similar "lifelike" robotic limbs, an undue financial blow on most users which doesn't always take the day to day functions they would desire from a prosthesis into mind- especially not when compared to most more utilitarian modern designs. But, in a fantasy setting, and where a team would need to work within the limits of their game's mechanics, these type of prostheses would be a creative, idealistic way to open doors for disability inclusion.[/i]) [center][img]https://1.bp.blogspot.com/-Xitjlrd0FsI/X2kNQesvVKI/AAAAAAAAZ84/-ssoPhXCPq4DXJlaIp_DESnZHYSgEfN2gCLcBGAsYHQ/s2048/artificial-limbs-James-Gillingham%2B%25288%2529.jpg[/img][/center] [center][img]https://i.pinimg.com/originals/28/31/4f/28314f3db96b46db7363791a39964434.jpg[/img][/center] Even if the item could just be mistaken for a gauntlet... Is that such a bad thing? It would just mean that the item would have the potential for more widespread usage, which is always a good thing when it comes to apparel. And with canes... Does the intention particularly matter? Adding more variety of canes and walking sticks would achieve inclusion just fine! I have dragons who use the cane/staff apparel for the aesthetic, some who use them because they're blind, and some who use them for mobility reasons- the fact that these items exist in the first place, regardless of the intention, is still a huge benefit to users who want to use these sorts of items for their disabled dragons. The crutches I can definitely see as a mechanical mystery, but, as someone mentioned earlier, there's also lots of space here to design mobility aids dragon-first; coming up with dedicated alternatives that convey a similar purpose would be nice. Apparel that's inclusive of disabilities doesn't have to exclude able-bodied dragons, or even be designed in a way that "singles out" disabled dragons- the point of including it in the first place would be to widen the potential of [i]all[/i] dragons' customization. It being versatile would be a great thing! It being simply taken into account with unrelated apparel updates, and not necessarily a standalone release, would also be great. [/quote] This is what I was thinking. Yeah, it might not be 'explicit' disability apparel, but it would still be nice to have things that could be utilized as such, and it doesn't matter how the end user wants to use them. If they want cyborg dragons? great. If they want robots? great. If they use the apparel for disability reasons? again just great. Same thing for most other disability aids. (though I am still not sold on wheelchairs, as that just seems like it would be a drag on the dragons flying and not really that useful for even walking use. I live in the country and have both a wheel chair and a walker for my parents, and believe me, it wasn't fun trying to manhandle the wheelchair over uneven terrain and since Sornieth doesn't seem like the type of place that has a lot of roads and flat surfaces (sure they have some, but most of it seems pretty 'natural') I would imagine that wheelchairs would be a pain to try to use out side of certain places)