Ages ago, there was a thread in this forum that suggested removing dodge entirely from coliseum battles. It kept up pretty well back then, but has since been lost to time.
It's been a minute since the last post about this mechanic was made, so I'm here to suggest again that dodge be removed. I am aware of the arguments against this, chiefly that without dodge, Eliminate becomes "even more OP" and the coliseum becomes "too easy."
First, whether dodge continues to function or not, Eliminate will always be powerful. It would take massive changes to both dragon and monster stats, and the addition of entirely new stones, to make it less so. If you dislike Eliminate's power and believe it should be less effective, what alternative you would prefer? What sort of builds do you think would be viable? Is nerfing Eliminate worth the time lost with these alternative builds? Would you then support removing dodge because the amount of time added by nerfing or removing Eliminate made dodges too time-consuming or wasteful?
Second, the coliseum is a very simple battle system. Adding complexity or difficulty mostly comes from adding to the amount of time it takes for one opponent to knock the other out. For example, boss battles use the same mechanics as all other fights, but the bosses' increased health pool and damage make the battle take longer and use more resources, which increase a player's chances of losing. Since bosses were introduced, many players have advocated skipping boss battles entirely because of how low the reward for defeating them is compared to the amount of time it takes to do it. This is especially important if you're using a single level 25 dragon to train weaker dragons. The coliseum is grindy, but at least it's a reliable way to keep your dragons fed and obtain things you need for other game mechanics, like Swipp and Baldwin.
So again, is maintaining some sort of difficulty level or challenge worth the time cost? Considering fairground games are far more flexible when it comes to challenge level, does the coliseum need to be a particularly challenging feature? Is it necessary to somehow limit players who grind or train frequently? Why? What about players who don't, but need the things the coliseum provides?
As far as bots are concerned, I consider them a non-issue. The camping captchas were created to handle that, regardless of their flaws. This post isn't about them.
Since I know Eliminate is still rather unpopular in some circles, regardless of the lack of viable alternatives (which does not mean Eliminate users don't deserve to use what works best for them, as far as I'm concerned), I will include a compromise suggestion that I haven't seen before.
Make dodge an ability stone that costs breath to use. If dodge becomes tied to an ability rather than a stat, it removes the worst aspect of it, which is the randomness. If a monster (or dragon) uses dodge, you can see it happen and know that an attack might miss. It would also have a limited number of turns, much like Rally, which lets players avoid potential multi-dodges. And just as there are multiple kinds of shields, there could be multiple forms of dodge, maybe one that has a 100% chance of avoiding one attack, one that has a 66% chance of avoiding 50% damage from three attacks, etc. (these are just example numbers). The important part is that it allows for counterplay and gives players more knowledge and control. Perhaps it could even open the door to more kinds of ability stones, like ones that can remove buffs, break barriers, or increase an attack's precision.
Ages ago, there was a thread in this forum that suggested removing dodge entirely from coliseum battles. It kept up pretty well back then, but has since been lost to time.
It's been a minute since the last post about this mechanic was made, so I'm here to suggest again that dodge be removed. I am aware of the arguments against this, chiefly that without dodge, Eliminate becomes "even more OP" and the coliseum becomes "too easy."
First, whether dodge continues to function or not, Eliminate will always be powerful. It would take massive changes to both dragon and monster stats, and the addition of entirely new stones, to make it less so. If you dislike Eliminate's power and believe it should be less effective, what alternative you would prefer? What sort of builds do you think would be viable? Is nerfing Eliminate worth the time lost with these alternative builds? Would you then support removing dodge because the amount of time added by nerfing or removing Eliminate made dodges too time-consuming or wasteful?
Second, the coliseum is a very simple battle system. Adding complexity or difficulty mostly comes from adding to the amount of time it takes for one opponent to knock the other out. For example, boss battles use the same mechanics as all other fights, but the bosses' increased health pool and damage make the battle take longer and use more resources, which increase a player's chances of losing. Since bosses were introduced, many players have advocated skipping boss battles entirely because of how low the reward for defeating them is compared to the amount of time it takes to do it. This is especially important if you're using a single level 25 dragon to train weaker dragons. The coliseum is grindy, but at least it's a reliable way to keep your dragons fed and obtain things you need for other game mechanics, like Swipp and Baldwin.
So again, is maintaining some sort of difficulty level or challenge worth the time cost? Considering fairground games are far more flexible when it comes to challenge level, does the coliseum need to be a particularly challenging feature? Is it necessary to somehow limit players who grind or train frequently? Why? What about players who don't, but need the things the coliseum provides?
As far as bots are concerned, I consider them a non-issue. The camping captchas were created to handle that, regardless of their flaws. This post isn't about them.
Since I know Eliminate is still rather unpopular in some circles, regardless of the lack of viable alternatives (which does not mean Eliminate users don't deserve to use what works best for them, as far as I'm concerned), I will include a compromise suggestion that I haven't seen before.
Make dodge an ability stone that costs breath to use. If dodge becomes tied to an ability rather than a stat, it removes the worst aspect of it, which is the randomness. If a monster (or dragon) uses dodge, you can see it happen and know that an attack might miss. It would also have a limited number of turns, much like Rally, which lets players avoid potential multi-dodges. And just as there are multiple kinds of shields, there could be multiple forms of dodge, maybe one that has a 100% chance of avoiding one attack, one that has a 66% chance of avoiding 50% damage from three attacks, etc. (these are just example numbers). The important part is that it allows for counterplay and gives players more knowledge and control. Perhaps it could even open the door to more kinds of ability stones, like ones that can remove buffs, break barriers, or increase an attack's precision.
Dodge as an ability stone is an interesting idea. I don’t see it as a nerf for Eliminate. The reason people are saying it is, I think, is because the most popular builds rely heavily on a high-breath move with no other powerful options when it fails. And thus, a build vulnerable to dodge, and often a dragon that has zero backup (single fodder trainers). I’ve noticed that my Workshop farmers (a mage and a fighter, set up to help each other) do not have issues with dodge unless they are almost dead. You’d probably have similar results for any build that didn’t rely on OKHO-ing with eliminate to win. That’s the trade off you make when creating a one-trick glass cannon - in literally any game. Stability for power. The Coliseum rewards power (and risk) greatly. Want rewards? Take a risk. Don’t want to die when your attack misses? Go for stability. That’s the trade-off. It’s not really eliminate that’s the problem; just people not understanding that trade-off. That, like I said, is present in pretty much any game that allows for builds.
I think the dodge stone idea is very interesting, could add in a new bit of strategy to take advantage of. Really, I’m neutral on it. I don’t see the problem you are trying to solve, but this would be an neat change to the Coli regardless.
Dodge as an ability stone is an interesting idea. I don’t see it as a nerf for Eliminate. The reason people are saying it is, I think, is because the most popular builds rely heavily on a high-breath move with no other powerful options when it fails. And thus, a build vulnerable to dodge, and often a dragon that has zero backup (single fodder trainers). I’ve noticed that my Workshop farmers (a mage and a fighter, set up to help each other) do not have issues with dodge unless they are almost dead. You’d probably have similar results for any build that didn’t rely on OKHO-ing with eliminate to win. That’s the trade off you make when creating a one-trick glass cannon - in literally any game. Stability for power. The Coliseum rewards power (and risk) greatly. Want rewards? Take a risk. Don’t want to die when your attack misses? Go for stability. That’s the trade-off. It’s not really eliminate that’s the problem; just people not understanding that trade-off. That, like I said, is present in pretty much any game that allows for builds.
I think the dodge stone idea is very interesting, could add in a new bit of strategy to take advantage of. Really, I’m neutral on it. I don’t see the problem you are trying to solve, but this would be an neat change to the Coli regardless.
Full support for removing the dodge mechanic entirely.
There's no skill or strategy involved in the coli, dodging doesn't add anything to the game other than frustration and there's nothing you can really do to combat the sometimes absoloutely outrageous dodge rates. Coli is already a mind numbingly boring grind, and it's made worse when enemies can dodge everything you throw at them an unfair number times in a row and then totally wipe out your entire fully levelled team that started the battle at full health.
Full support for removing the dodge mechanic entirely.
There's no skill or strategy involved in the coli, dodging doesn't add anything to the game other than frustration and there's nothing you can really do to combat the sometimes absoloutely outrageous dodge rates. Coli is already a mind numbingly boring grind, and it's made worse when enemies can dodge everything you throw at them an unfair number times in a row and then totally wipe out your entire fully levelled team that started the battle at full health.
I don't see why not. Whether you think coli should be a strategy game or not, RNG is not the only way to balance things. I still want something like "dodge decay" but an ability stone is an interesting alternative.
I don't see why not. Whether you think coli should be a strategy game or not, RNG is not the only way to balance things. I still want something like "dodge decay" but an ability stone is an interesting alternative.
I would rather have the coliseum rebalanced to make all stats useful, rather than have dodge removed entirely, though tieing it to an ability stone might be interesting, as long as enemies can still dodge, albeit with the use of this ability stone.
I feel that either the 'useless' stats need to be removed, or they need to be made useful, and I like the idea of tying dodge to agility. It makes sense to me, and I also think that there could be a benefit to using agility in that the higher the agility of your dragon the more likely you are to hit regardless of whether or not they dodge (ie, the way I feel it would work is that at the current levels, with this change, you would hit the same. However, the higher your agility level for the dragon, the more likely you will hit an enemy, even if it dodges)
Yes, this would mean builds need to be rebalanced, and that people might not be able to grind the coliseum as fast, but, to me, that is an acceptible tradeoff to the dodge issue (as you could still keep the same builds as now, just your dragons wouldn't dodge as much, nor would they have the ability to hit a dodged enemy)
I would rather have the coliseum rebalanced to make all stats useful, rather than have dodge removed entirely, though tieing it to an ability stone might be interesting, as long as enemies can still dodge, albeit with the use of this ability stone.
I feel that either the 'useless' stats need to be removed, or they need to be made useful, and I like the idea of tying dodge to agility. It makes sense to me, and I also think that there could be a benefit to using agility in that the higher the agility of your dragon the more likely you are to hit regardless of whether or not they dodge (ie, the way I feel it would work is that at the current levels, with this change, you would hit the same. However, the higher your agility level for the dragon, the more likely you will hit an enemy, even if it dodges)
Yes, this would mean builds need to be rebalanced, and that people might not be able to grind the coliseum as fast, but, to me, that is an acceptible tradeoff to the dodge issue (as you could still keep the same builds as now, just your dragons wouldn't dodge as much, nor would they have the ability to hit a dodged enemy)
No support because of making Eliminate more OP.
[quote]First, whether dodge continues to function or not, Eliminate will always be powerful. It would take massive changes to both dragon and monster stats, and the addition of entirely new stones, to make it less so. If you dislike Eliminate's power and believe it should be less effective, what alternative you would prefer? What sort of builds do you think would be viable? Is nerfing Eliminate worth the time lost with these alternative builds? Would you then support removing dodge because the amount of time added by nerfing or removing Eliminate made dodges too time-consuming or wasteful?[/quote]
I don't think we should have to change Eliminate. Perhaps something could be done about dodge stacking, but I don't support eliminating (pun) it entirely.
Though I do believe making an array of new stones with various functions could help liven up the Coli.
No support because of making Eliminate more OP.
Quote:
First, whether dodge continues to function or not, Eliminate will always be powerful. It would take massive changes to both dragon and monster stats, and the addition of entirely new stones, to make it less so. If you dislike Eliminate's power and believe it should be less effective, what alternative you would prefer? What sort of builds do you think would be viable? Is nerfing Eliminate worth the time lost with these alternative builds? Would you then support removing dodge because the amount of time added by nerfing or removing Eliminate made dodges too time-consuming or wasteful?
I don't think we should have to change Eliminate. Perhaps something could be done about dodge stacking, but I don't support eliminating (pun) it entirely.
Though I do believe making an array of new stones with various functions could help liven up the Coli.
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If writers are supposed to "show not tell," why are we called "storytellers" and not "storyshow-ers"?
Not sure if I fully support this. I wouldn't mind it being impossible to dodge twice in a row, that rng is awfully rude sometimes, but removing it entirely? There's definitely instances where people play the coli... Like it's supposed to be (pinkerlockes, first team of lv 25s, people who can't afford elim yet), and this would make that even more drab and dull. (especially in the case of pinkerlockes and nuzlockes, where it's already really hard to die if you know what you're doing unless there's RNG involved.)
Not sure if I fully support this. I wouldn't mind it being impossible to dodge twice in a row, that rng is awfully rude sometimes, but removing it entirely? There's definitely instances where people play the coli... Like it's supposed to be (pinkerlockes, first team of lv 25s, people who can't afford elim yet), and this would make that even more drab and dull. (especially in the case of pinkerlockes and nuzlockes, where it's already really hard to die if you know what you're doing unless there's RNG involved.)
the coli already pretty much needs a full overhaul, but i can see this being not an ability stone but rather an option that would go inbetween the (very seldom used) defend and flee buttons. that ability stone spot would be much better used with an actual ability on dragons, and beastclans already don't have as many slots for abilities. of course, this layout would remove beastclan dodging entirely, but i feel like that would be covered by things such as moves still having the chance to miss, especially against shadow enemies and/or dragons with Shroud. there's a good base here though, and it gives you something to think about.
the coli already pretty much needs a full overhaul, but i can see this being not an ability stone but rather an option that would go inbetween the (very seldom used) defend and flee buttons. that ability stone spot would be much better used with an actual ability on dragons, and beastclans already don't have as many slots for abilities. of course, this layout would remove beastclan dodging entirely, but i feel like that would be covered by things such as moves still having the chance to miss, especially against shadow enemies and/or dragons with Shroud. there's a good base here though, and it gives you something to think about.
If dodge go, so should Eliminate's energy refund.
That would be the balance Eliminate needs anyway.
If dodge go, so should Eliminate's energy refund.
That would be the balance Eliminate needs anyway.
tbh I don't understand the absolute need to punish people who use elim that would get you all the way to "remove the entire utility of the stone in exchange for a change/removal of dodge"
tbh I don't understand the absolute need to punish people who use elim that would get you all the way to "remove the entire utility of the stone in exchange for a change/removal of dodge"
