[quote name="Twizz" date="2021-04-18 15:26:00" ]
[quote name="BlueJaysFeather" date="2021-04-18 10:14:04" ]
The other thing is, as I've just recently discovered, dodge doesn't even always nerf eliminate "properly". I rebuilt my mire flyer into a mire monk and now she can be dodged two or three times in a row and just keep rolling. While I kinda think that for me this has solved the dodge problem, the fact that dodge cuts back the number of best builds even more strikes me as the opposite of what the "but muh strategy" folks are going for.
[/quote]
[b]Ah but see. You're using a build that sacrificed a little bit of the speed/attack power for the stability of being able to tank dodges.[/b]
This is what I mean when I say that Dodge isn't the problem. The problem is players want to have builds with the highest possible speed/attack but fail to recognize that doing so comes at the risk of being vulnerable to dodged attacks.
If your entire build can be upset by a couple of dodges, that build has a flaw. I'm not saying that makes it a bad build. It just means that build has some drawbacks in addition to it's many pros (speed, higher attack whatever).
If Dodge is a problem for your build in the venue you're grinding/leveling, consider using a build/team that can better handle dodges. But you can't have your cake and eat it too. You can't have a build that you've frontloaded to favor attack strength and/or speed and then get upset when it can't handle being dodged when there's ways to combat that.
I'm not opposed to tying Dodge chances to a specific stat, but I don't think that's going to solve the "problem" people keep bringing up in these suggestions because the problem isn't actually Dodge. It's the builds people are favoring.
[/quote]
It really [i]really [/i]didn't. My turns to eliminate are actually down from 6 to 5 (meditate x2, haste, rally, defend, elim as opposed to scratch x6, elim) and I still oneshot rally+eliminate everything in the mire. I can start against more packs than a mire flyer. I can recover from more dodges than a mire flyer. I can kill wartoads while training two fodder. I'm not sure what speed and attack power you think I sacrificed, but I assure you this is an improvement on every dimension.
You can say what you want about "have your cake and eat it too" but at the end of the day optimization will always win the day, and no condescending "consider using a better team" will change the fact that FR's coliseum favors minmaxing, nor that being dodged 3+ times in a row, run ending or not, feels extremely un-fun.
Twizz wrote on 2021-04-18 15:26:00:
BlueJaysFeather wrote on 2021-04-18 10:14:04:
The other thing is, as I've just recently discovered, dodge doesn't even always nerf eliminate "properly". I rebuilt my mire flyer into a mire monk and now she can be dodged two or three times in a row and just keep rolling. While I kinda think that for me this has solved the dodge problem, the fact that dodge cuts back the number of best builds even more strikes me as the opposite of what the "but muh strategy" folks are going for.
Ah but see. You're using a build that sacrificed a little bit of the speed/attack power for the stability of being able to tank dodges.
This is what I mean when I say that Dodge isn't the problem. The problem is players want to have builds with the highest possible speed/attack but fail to recognize that doing so comes at the risk of being vulnerable to dodged attacks.
If your entire build can be upset by a couple of dodges, that build has a flaw. I'm not saying that makes it a bad build. It just means that build has some drawbacks in addition to it's many pros (speed, higher attack whatever).
If Dodge is a problem for your build in the venue you're grinding/leveling, consider using a build/team that can better handle dodges. But you can't have your cake and eat it too. You can't have a build that you've frontloaded to favor attack strength and/or speed and then get upset when it can't handle being dodged when there's ways to combat that.
I'm not opposed to tying Dodge chances to a specific stat, but I don't think that's going to solve the "problem" people keep bringing up in these suggestions because the problem isn't actually Dodge. It's the builds people are favoring.
It really
really didn't. My turns to eliminate are actually down from 6 to 5 (meditate x2, haste, rally, defend, elim as opposed to scratch x6, elim) and I still oneshot rally+eliminate everything in the mire. I can start against more packs than a mire flyer. I can recover from more dodges than a mire flyer. I can kill wartoads while training two fodder. I'm not sure what speed and attack power you think I sacrificed, but I assure you this is an improvement on every dimension.
You can say what you want about "have your cake and eat it too" but at the end of the day optimization will always win the day, and no condescending "consider using a better team" will change the fact that FR's coliseum favors minmaxing, nor that being dodged 3+ times in a row, run ending or not, feels extremely un-fun.
[quote name="BlueJaysFeather" date="2021-04-18 16:44:01" ]
[quote name="Twizz" date="2021-04-18 15:26:00" ]
[quote name="BlueJaysFeather" date="2021-04-18 10:14:04" ]
The other thing is, as I've just recently discovered, dodge doesn't even always nerf eliminate "properly". I rebuilt my mire flyer into a mire monk and now she can be dodged two or three times in a row and just keep rolling. While I kinda think that for me this has solved the dodge problem, the fact that dodge cuts back the number of best builds even more strikes me as the opposite of what the "but muh strategy" folks are going for.
[/quote]
[b]Ah but see. You're using a build that sacrificed a little bit of the speed/attack power for the stability of being able to tank dodges.[/b]
This is what I mean when I say that Dodge isn't the problem. The problem is players want to have builds with the highest possible speed/attack but fail to recognize that doing so comes at the risk of being vulnerable to dodged attacks.
If your entire build can be upset by a couple of dodges, that build has a flaw. I'm not saying that makes it a bad build. It just means that build has some drawbacks in addition to it's many pros (speed, higher attack whatever).
If Dodge is a problem for your build in the venue you're grinding/leveling, consider using a build/team that can better handle dodges. But you can't have your cake and eat it too. You can't have a build that you've frontloaded to favor attack strength and/or speed and then get upset when it can't handle being dodged when there's ways to combat that.
I'm not opposed to tying Dodge chances to a specific stat, but I don't think that's going to solve the "problem" people keep bringing up in these suggestions because the problem isn't actually Dodge. It's the builds people are favoring.
[/quote]
It really [i]really [/i]didn't. My turns to eliminate are actually down from 6 to 5 (meditate x2, haste, rally, defend, elim as opposed to scratch x6, elim) and I still oneshot rally+eliminate everything in the mire. I can start against more packs than a mire flyer. I can recover from more dodges than a mire flyer. I can kill wartoads while training two fodder. I'm not sure what speed and attack power you think I sacrificed, but I assure you this is an improvement on every dimension.
You can say what you want about "have your cake and eat it too" but at the end of the day optimization will always win the day, and no condescending "consider using a better team" will change the fact that FR's coliseum favors minmaxing, nor that being dodged 3+ times in a row, run ending or not, feels extremely un-fun.
[/quote]
...You literally just said changing from the traditional Mire Flyer to the lesser known/used Mire Monk solved the majority of your Dodge problem.
The so-called "Best Builds" are purely called that because they're min-max'd for speed/attack. If everybody started favoring Meditate builds over the faster Scratch builds, I guarantee you we'd see way less complaints about Dodge.
But those builds aren't as popular because they are, in fact, slightly slower and less powerful (at least from what I can see of the actual stat numbers). Does it matter in the grander scheme of things? Probably not, because as you just pointed out the difference in speed/attack is so minimal that it won't make a difference to most casual players and in some cases it's actually better. But it is there.
Again, I can totally support tying the chance of a Dodge to a stat like Agility. However, I know for a fact we're going to see the same problem of certain groups of players not wanting to sacrifice their Strength/Quick builds in order to better combat Dodge. Because the problem is the popular min-max'd builds and playstyles and not specifically Dodge. Would it mitigate part of the problem? Maybe! But it won't fix what I feel is the heart of the problem which is players wanting to have a build that hits hard and fast with absolutely no downsides to it.
I'm not trying to be condescending here, I'm just trying to point out how the "Dodge problem" can already be fixed in some ways by the players themselves if they so choose. If you (general You) don't want to switch to Monk and other tankier builds or simply prefer Scratch builds for one reason or another that's fine, but it's a choice you as a player have made and understand what the risks vs the rewards are.
BlueJaysFeather wrote on 2021-04-18 16:44:01:
Twizz wrote on 2021-04-18 15:26:00:
BlueJaysFeather wrote on 2021-04-18 10:14:04:
The other thing is, as I've just recently discovered, dodge doesn't even always nerf eliminate "properly". I rebuilt my mire flyer into a mire monk and now she can be dodged two or three times in a row and just keep rolling. While I kinda think that for me this has solved the dodge problem, the fact that dodge cuts back the number of best builds even more strikes me as the opposite of what the "but muh strategy" folks are going for.
Ah but see. You're using a build that sacrificed a little bit of the speed/attack power for the stability of being able to tank dodges.
This is what I mean when I say that Dodge isn't the problem. The problem is players want to have builds with the highest possible speed/attack but fail to recognize that doing so comes at the risk of being vulnerable to dodged attacks.
If your entire build can be upset by a couple of dodges, that build has a flaw. I'm not saying that makes it a bad build. It just means that build has some drawbacks in addition to it's many pros (speed, higher attack whatever).
If Dodge is a problem for your build in the venue you're grinding/leveling, consider using a build/team that can better handle dodges. But you can't have your cake and eat it too. You can't have a build that you've frontloaded to favor attack strength and/or speed and then get upset when it can't handle being dodged when there's ways to combat that.
I'm not opposed to tying Dodge chances to a specific stat, but I don't think that's going to solve the "problem" people keep bringing up in these suggestions because the problem isn't actually Dodge. It's the builds people are favoring.
It really
really didn't. My turns to eliminate are actually down from 6 to 5 (meditate x2, haste, rally, defend, elim as opposed to scratch x6, elim) and I still oneshot rally+eliminate everything in the mire. I can start against more packs than a mire flyer. I can recover from more dodges than a mire flyer. I can kill wartoads while training two fodder. I'm not sure what speed and attack power you think I sacrificed, but I assure you this is an improvement on every dimension.
You can say what you want about "have your cake and eat it too" but at the end of the day optimization will always win the day, and no condescending "consider using a better team" will change the fact that FR's coliseum favors minmaxing, nor that being dodged 3+ times in a row, run ending or not, feels extremely un-fun.
...You literally just said changing from the traditional Mire Flyer to the lesser known/used Mire Monk solved the majority of your Dodge problem.
The so-called "Best Builds" are purely called that because they're min-max'd for speed/attack. If everybody started favoring Meditate builds over the faster Scratch builds, I guarantee you we'd see way less complaints about Dodge.
But those builds aren't as popular because they are, in fact, slightly slower and less powerful (at least from what I can see of the actual stat numbers). Does it matter in the grander scheme of things? Probably not, because as you just pointed out the difference in speed/attack is so minimal that it won't make a difference to most casual players and in some cases it's actually better. But it is there.
Again, I can totally support tying the chance of a Dodge to a stat like Agility. However, I know for a fact we're going to see the same problem of certain groups of players not wanting to sacrifice their Strength/Quick builds in order to better combat Dodge. Because the problem is the popular min-max'd builds and playstyles and not specifically Dodge. Would it mitigate part of the problem? Maybe! But it won't fix what I feel is the heart of the problem which is players wanting to have a build that hits hard and fast with absolutely no downsides to it.
I'm not trying to be condescending here, I'm just trying to point out how the "Dodge problem" can already be fixed in some ways by the players themselves if they so choose. If you (general You) don't want to switch to Monk and other tankier builds or simply prefer Scratch builds for one reason or another that's fine, but it's a choice you as a player have made and understand what the risks vs the rewards are.
[quote name="Pennifeather" date="2021-04-18 16:32:52" ]
[quote name="Twizz" date="2021-04-18 15:26:00" ]
[quote name="BlueJaysFeather" date="2021-04-18 10:14:04" ]
The other thing is, as I've just recently discovered, dodge doesn't even always nerf eliminate "properly". I rebuilt my mire flyer into a mire monk and now she can be dodged two or three times in a row and just keep rolling. While I kinda think that for me this has solved the dodge problem, the fact that dodge cuts back the number of best builds even more strikes me as the opposite of what the "but muh strategy" folks are going for.
[/quote]
Ah but see. You're using a build that sacrificed a little bit of the speed/attack power for the stability of being able to tank dodges.
This is what I mean when I say that Dodge isn't the problem. The problem is players want to have builds with the highest possible speed/attack but fail to recognize that doing so comes at the risk of being vulnerable to dodged attacks.
If your entire build can be upset by a couple of dodges, that build has a flaw. I'm not saying that makes it a bad build. It just means that build has some drawbacks in addition to it's many pros (speed, higher attack whatever).
If Dodge is a problem for your build in the venue you're grinding/leveling, consider using a build/team that can better handle dodges. But you can't have your cake and eat it too. You can't have a build that you've frontloaded to favor attack strength and/or speed and then get upset when it can't handle being dodged when there's ways to combat that.
I'm not opposed to tying Dodge chances to a specific stat, but I don't think that's going to solve the "problem" people keep bringing up in these suggestions because the problem isn't actually Dodge. It's the builds people are favoring.
[/quote]
That's the thing. Dodge is a problem in [i]every[/i] venue. Mushrooms dodge as much as psywurms. There is no rhyme or reason to it, it's just a roll of dice.
So why is it necessary to prevent people from "endlessly grinding" or whatever? [b]Why must players choose whether to sacrifice reliability or speed?[/b]
[/quote]
Because that is literally in pretty much every single RPG type game I have played.
Everything has a trade off. High Strength means your character has low int (or high int/str means low something else). Being able to dodge means you have fewer points to put in another stat, so you could be the unluckiest person in the world (depending on the stats you are allowed to allocate).
While the coliseum isn't a true 'RPG' it takes its aspects from that, so there are tradeoffs. If *all* the stats worked like they were meant to, then yeah, the glass cannon build would probably still work, but it would be even more obvious that it has its trade offs.
However, to my knowledge, agility and the two defense stats don't work correctly, and intelligence is simply another 'attack' stat. (it is VERY frustrating when all stats are useful to any build in games *pouts*) So, if you have a physical attacker, you only need three stats: str, qck and vit.
Also the reason to prevent endless grinding is the same reason we have the captcha: to prevent bots.
It also helps, to a lesser extent, to prevent inflation.
Pennifeather wrote on 2021-04-18 16:32:52:
Twizz wrote on 2021-04-18 15:26:00:
BlueJaysFeather wrote on 2021-04-18 10:14:04:
The other thing is, as I've just recently discovered, dodge doesn't even always nerf eliminate "properly". I rebuilt my mire flyer into a mire monk and now she can be dodged two or three times in a row and just keep rolling. While I kinda think that for me this has solved the dodge problem, the fact that dodge cuts back the number of best builds even more strikes me as the opposite of what the "but muh strategy" folks are going for.
Ah but see. You're using a build that sacrificed a little bit of the speed/attack power for the stability of being able to tank dodges.
This is what I mean when I say that Dodge isn't the problem. The problem is players want to have builds with the highest possible speed/attack but fail to recognize that doing so comes at the risk of being vulnerable to dodged attacks.
If your entire build can be upset by a couple of dodges, that build has a flaw. I'm not saying that makes it a bad build. It just means that build has some drawbacks in addition to it's many pros (speed, higher attack whatever).
If Dodge is a problem for your build in the venue you're grinding/leveling, consider using a build/team that can better handle dodges. But you can't have your cake and eat it too. You can't have a build that you've frontloaded to favor attack strength and/or speed and then get upset when it can't handle being dodged when there's ways to combat that.
I'm not opposed to tying Dodge chances to a specific stat, but I don't think that's going to solve the "problem" people keep bringing up in these suggestions because the problem isn't actually Dodge. It's the builds people are favoring.
That's the thing. Dodge is a problem in
every venue. Mushrooms dodge as much as psywurms. There is no rhyme or reason to it, it's just a roll of dice.
So why is it necessary to prevent people from "endlessly grinding" or whatever?
Why must players choose whether to sacrifice reliability or speed?
Because that is literally in pretty much every single RPG type game I have played.
Everything has a trade off. High Strength means your character has low int (or high int/str means low something else). Being able to dodge means you have fewer points to put in another stat, so you could be the unluckiest person in the world (depending on the stats you are allowed to allocate).
While the coliseum isn't a true 'RPG' it takes its aspects from that, so there are tradeoffs. If *all* the stats worked like they were meant to, then yeah, the glass cannon build would probably still work, but it would be even more obvious that it has its trade offs.
However, to my knowledge, agility and the two defense stats don't work correctly, and intelligence is simply another 'attack' stat. (it is VERY frustrating when all stats are useful to any build in games *pouts*) So, if you have a physical attacker, you only need three stats: str, qck and vit.
Also the reason to prevent endless grinding is the same reason we have the captcha: to prevent bots.
It also helps, to a lesser extent, to prevent inflation.
[quote name="Twizz" date="2021-04-18 17:51:30" ]
[quote name="BlueJaysFeather" date="2021-04-18 16:44:01" ]
[quote name="Twizz" date="2021-04-18 15:26:00" ]
[quote name="BlueJaysFeather" date="2021-04-18 10:14:04" ]
The other thing is, as I've just recently discovered, dodge doesn't even always nerf eliminate "properly". I rebuilt my mire flyer into a mire monk and now she can be dodged two or three times in a row and just keep rolling. While I kinda think that for me this has solved the dodge problem, the fact that dodge cuts back the number of best builds even more strikes me as the opposite of what the "but muh strategy" folks are going for.
[/quote]
[b]Ah but see. You're using a build that sacrificed a little bit of the speed/attack power for the stability of being able to tank dodges.[/b]
This is what I mean when I say that Dodge isn't the problem. The problem is players want to have builds with the highest possible speed/attack but fail to recognize that doing so comes at the risk of being vulnerable to dodged attacks.
If your entire build can be upset by a couple of dodges, that build has a flaw. I'm not saying that makes it a bad build. It just means that build has some drawbacks in addition to it's many pros (speed, higher attack whatever).
If Dodge is a problem for your build in the venue you're grinding/leveling, consider using a build/team that can better handle dodges. But you can't have your cake and eat it too. You can't have a build that you've frontloaded to favor attack strength and/or speed and then get upset when it can't handle being dodged when there's ways to combat that.
I'm not opposed to tying Dodge chances to a specific stat, but I don't think that's going to solve the "problem" people keep bringing up in these suggestions because the problem isn't actually Dodge. It's the builds people are favoring.
[/quote]
It really [i]really [/i]didn't. My turns to eliminate are actually down from 6 to 5 (meditate x2, haste, rally, defend, elim as opposed to scratch x6, elim) and I still oneshot rally+eliminate everything in the mire. I can start against more packs than a mire flyer. I can recover from more dodges than a mire flyer. I can kill wartoads while training two fodder. I'm not sure what speed and attack power you think I sacrificed, but I assure you this is an improvement on every dimension.
You can say what you want about "have your cake and eat it too" but at the end of the day optimization will always win the day, and no condescending "consider using a better team" will change the fact that FR's coliseum favors minmaxing, nor that being dodged 3+ times in a row, run ending or not, feels extremely un-fun.
[/quote]
...You literally just said changing from the traditional Mire Flyer to the lesser known/used Mire Monk solved the majority of your Dodge problem.
The so-called "Best Builds" are purely called that because they're min-max'd for speed/attack. If everybody started favoring Meditate builds over the faster Scratch builds, I guarantee you we'd see way less complaints about Dodge.
But those builds aren't as popular because they are, in fact, slightly slower and less powerful (at least from what I can see of the actual stat numbers). Does it matter in the grander scheme of things? Probably not, because as you just pointed out the difference in speed/attack is so minimal that it won't make a difference to most casual players and in some cases it's actually better. But it is there.
Again, I can totally support tying the chance of a Dodge to a stat like Agility. However, I know for a fact we're going to see the same problem of certain groups of players not wanting to sacrifice their Strength/Quick builds in order to better combat Dodge. Because the problem is the popular min-max'd builds and playstyles and not specifically Dodge. Would it mitigate part of the problem? Maybe! But it won't fix what I feel is the heart of the problem which is players wanting to have a build that hits hard and fast with absolutely no downsides to it.
I'm not trying to be condescending here, I'm just trying to point out how the "Dodge problem" can already be fixed in some ways by the players themselves if they so choose. If you (general You) don't want to switch to Monk and other tankier builds or simply prefer Scratch builds for one reason or another that's fine, but it's a choice you as a player have made and understand what the risks vs the rewards are.
[/quote]
I'm not sure why a change in build being an improvement invalidates my point to you? My point is specifically two things: one, most of the players who think dodge is at all necessary seem to desperately want more variety in builds, and two, if dodge pushes everyone into one specific build, that's the opposite of their goal.
For reference, because I'm still confused:
[columns]Stat
STR
AGI
VIT
QCK
INT
DEF
MND
[nextcol]Mire Flyer
119
8
19
69
5
5
5
[nextcol]Mire Monk
119
8
33
62
5
6
5[/columns]
Haste: +30 QCK
Rally: +30 STR
First battle for mire monk: Meditate, Meditate, Haste, Enemy Turn x3, Rally, Defend, Enemy Turn x3, Eliminate, Eliminate, Enemy Turn x1, Eliminate [total turns: 15, enemy turns: 7, Final breath: 70]
First battle for mire flyer: Scratch, Scratch, Scratch, Enemy Turn x3, Scratch, Scratch, Enemy Turn x2, Scratch, Enemy Turn x2, Eliminate, Eliminate [total turns: 15, enemy turns: 7, Final breath: 36]
2+ battle for both: Rally, Eliminate, Eliminate, Enemy Turn x1, Eliminate [total turns: 5, enemy turns: 1]
They have literally the exact same STR and the 7 points of QCK are offset by Haste in the only battle that lasts long enough for the slight difference to actually have an impact. They have the exact same number of turns to start, and in subsequent battles.
Where are you getting this idea that players aren't picking the mire monk "because they are, in fact, slightly slower and less powerful" when they just, aren't, at all? Like, we can look at other numbers besides turns if you want, but turns are what matter for a 2-fodder build. You say "The so-called "Best Builds" are purely called that because they're min-max'd for speed/attack. If everybody started favoring Meditate builds over the faster Scratch builds, I guarantee you we'd see way less complaints about Dodge." As though the Monk isn't just as fast and just as strong, and slightly (slightly!) more balanced in stats at the cost of exactly zero turns. They aren't called the best builds because people like the look of a bunch of STR and QCK, they're called that because players have done the research and time trials, and they're the fastest way to churn out levels. The reason the Monk isn't popular (yet) is simply because it's more recent and people just don't know it exists. After the next science push I expect the Monk build to topple the Mire Flyer.
So yeah, if people started switching to the Mire Monk, we would see fewer complaints about dodge (and I think we will, as the monk starts becoming more well known), not because people are taking a [i]slower[/i] and safer build, but simply because the Monk is [i]better optimized to get more out of the same number of turns/stat points[/i].
I don't understand what point you're trying to make here, but I don't think the Monk supports it as much as you think it does.
Twizz wrote on 2021-04-18 17:51:30:
BlueJaysFeather wrote on 2021-04-18 16:44:01:
Twizz wrote on 2021-04-18 15:26:00:
BlueJaysFeather wrote on 2021-04-18 10:14:04:
The other thing is, as I've just recently discovered, dodge doesn't even always nerf eliminate "properly". I rebuilt my mire flyer into a mire monk and now she can be dodged two or three times in a row and just keep rolling. While I kinda think that for me this has solved the dodge problem, the fact that dodge cuts back the number of best builds even more strikes me as the opposite of what the "but muh strategy" folks are going for.
Ah but see. You're using a build that sacrificed a little bit of the speed/attack power for the stability of being able to tank dodges.
This is what I mean when I say that Dodge isn't the problem. The problem is players want to have builds with the highest possible speed/attack but fail to recognize that doing so comes at the risk of being vulnerable to dodged attacks.
If your entire build can be upset by a couple of dodges, that build has a flaw. I'm not saying that makes it a bad build. It just means that build has some drawbacks in addition to it's many pros (speed, higher attack whatever).
If Dodge is a problem for your build in the venue you're grinding/leveling, consider using a build/team that can better handle dodges. But you can't have your cake and eat it too. You can't have a build that you've frontloaded to favor attack strength and/or speed and then get upset when it can't handle being dodged when there's ways to combat that.
I'm not opposed to tying Dodge chances to a specific stat, but I don't think that's going to solve the "problem" people keep bringing up in these suggestions because the problem isn't actually Dodge. It's the builds people are favoring.
It really
really didn't. My turns to eliminate are actually down from 6 to 5 (meditate x2, haste, rally, defend, elim as opposed to scratch x6, elim) and I still oneshot rally+eliminate everything in the mire. I can start against more packs than a mire flyer. I can recover from more dodges than a mire flyer. I can kill wartoads while training two fodder. I'm not sure what speed and attack power you think I sacrificed, but I assure you this is an improvement on every dimension.
You can say what you want about "have your cake and eat it too" but at the end of the day optimization will always win the day, and no condescending "consider using a better team" will change the fact that FR's coliseum favors minmaxing, nor that being dodged 3+ times in a row, run ending or not, feels extremely un-fun.
...You literally just said changing from the traditional Mire Flyer to the lesser known/used Mire Monk solved the majority of your Dodge problem.
The so-called "Best Builds" are purely called that because they're min-max'd for speed/attack. If everybody started favoring Meditate builds over the faster Scratch builds, I guarantee you we'd see way less complaints about Dodge.
But those builds aren't as popular because they are, in fact, slightly slower and less powerful (at least from what I can see of the actual stat numbers). Does it matter in the grander scheme of things? Probably not, because as you just pointed out the difference in speed/attack is so minimal that it won't make a difference to most casual players and in some cases it's actually better. But it is there.
Again, I can totally support tying the chance of a Dodge to a stat like Agility. However, I know for a fact we're going to see the same problem of certain groups of players not wanting to sacrifice their Strength/Quick builds in order to better combat Dodge. Because the problem is the popular min-max'd builds and playstyles and not specifically Dodge. Would it mitigate part of the problem? Maybe! But it won't fix what I feel is the heart of the problem which is players wanting to have a build that hits hard and fast with absolutely no downsides to it.
I'm not trying to be condescending here, I'm just trying to point out how the "Dodge problem" can already be fixed in some ways by the players themselves if they so choose. If you (general You) don't want to switch to Monk and other tankier builds or simply prefer Scratch builds for one reason or another that's fine, but it's a choice you as a player have made and understand what the risks vs the rewards are.
I'm not sure why a change in build being an improvement invalidates my point to you? My point is specifically two things: one, most of the players who think dodge is at all necessary seem to desperately want more variety in builds, and two, if dodge pushes everyone into one specific build, that's the opposite of their goal.
For reference, because I'm still confused:
Stat
STR
AGI
VIT
QCK
INT
DEF
MND
|
Mire Flyer
119
8
19
69
5
5
5
|
Mire Monk
119
8
33
62
5
6
5
|
Haste: +30 QCK
Rally: +30 STR
First battle for mire monk: Meditate, Meditate, Haste, Enemy Turn x3, Rally, Defend, Enemy Turn x3, Eliminate, Eliminate, Enemy Turn x1, Eliminate [total turns: 15, enemy turns: 7, Final breath: 70]
First battle for mire flyer: Scratch, Scratch, Scratch, Enemy Turn x3, Scratch, Scratch, Enemy Turn x2, Scratch, Enemy Turn x2, Eliminate, Eliminate [total turns: 15, enemy turns: 7, Final breath: 36]
2+ battle for both: Rally, Eliminate, Eliminate, Enemy Turn x1, Eliminate [total turns: 5, enemy turns: 1]
They have literally the exact same STR and the 7 points of QCK are offset by Haste in the only battle that lasts long enough for the slight difference to actually have an impact. They have the exact same number of turns to start, and in subsequent battles.
Where are you getting this idea that players aren't picking the mire monk "because they are, in fact, slightly slower and less powerful" when they just, aren't, at all? Like, we can look at other numbers besides turns if you want, but turns are what matter for a 2-fodder build. You say "The so-called "Best Builds" are purely called that because they're min-max'd for speed/attack. If everybody started favoring Meditate builds over the faster Scratch builds, I guarantee you we'd see way less complaints about Dodge." As though the Monk isn't just as fast and just as strong, and slightly (slightly!) more balanced in stats at the cost of exactly zero turns. They aren't called the best builds because people like the look of a bunch of STR and QCK, they're called that because players have done the research and time trials, and they're the fastest way to churn out levels. The reason the Monk isn't popular (yet) is simply because it's more recent and people just don't know it exists. After the next science push I expect the Monk build to topple the Mire Flyer.
So yeah, if people started switching to the Mire Monk, we would see fewer complaints about dodge (and I think we will, as the monk starts becoming more well known), not because people are taking a
slower and safer build, but simply because the Monk is
better optimized to get more out of the same number of turns/stat points.
I don't understand what point you're trying to make here, but I don't think the Monk supports it as much as you think it does.
[quote name="BlueJaysFeather" date="2021-04-18 22:49:15" ]
[quote name="Twizz" date="2021-04-18 17:51:30" ]
[quote name="BlueJaysFeather" date="2021-04-18 16:44:01" ]
[quote name="Twizz" date="2021-04-18 15:26:00" ]
[quote name="BlueJaysFeather" date="2021-04-18 10:14:04" ]
The other thing is, as I've just recently discovered, dodge doesn't even always nerf eliminate "properly". I rebuilt my mire flyer into a mire monk and now she can be dodged two or three times in a row and just keep rolling. While I kinda think that for me this has solved the dodge problem, the fact that dodge cuts back the number of best builds even more strikes me as the opposite of what the "but muh strategy" folks are going for.
[/quote]
[b]Ah but see. You're using a build that sacrificed a little bit of the speed/attack power for the stability of being able to tank dodges.[/b]
This is what I mean when I say that Dodge isn't the problem. The problem is players want to have builds with the highest possible speed/attack but fail to recognize that doing so comes at the risk of being vulnerable to dodged attacks.
If your entire build can be upset by a couple of dodges, that build has a flaw. I'm not saying that makes it a bad build. It just means that build has some drawbacks in addition to it's many pros (speed, higher attack whatever).
If Dodge is a problem for your build in the venue you're grinding/leveling, consider using a build/team that can better handle dodges. But you can't have your cake and eat it too. You can't have a build that you've frontloaded to favor attack strength and/or speed and then get upset when it can't handle being dodged when there's ways to combat that.
I'm not opposed to tying Dodge chances to a specific stat, but I don't think that's going to solve the "problem" people keep bringing up in these suggestions because the problem isn't actually Dodge. It's the builds people are favoring.
[/quote]
It really [i]really [/i]didn't. My turns to eliminate are actually down from 6 to 5 (meditate x2, haste, rally, defend, elim as opposed to scratch x6, elim) and I still oneshot rally+eliminate everything in the mire. I can start against more packs than a mire flyer. I can recover from more dodges than a mire flyer. I can kill wartoads while training two fodder. I'm not sure what speed and attack power you think I sacrificed, but I assure you this is an improvement on every dimension.
You can say what you want about "have your cake and eat it too" but at the end of the day optimization will always win the day, and no condescending "consider using a better team" will change the fact that FR's coliseum favors minmaxing, nor that being dodged 3+ times in a row, run ending or not, feels extremely un-fun.
[/quote]
...You literally just said changing from the traditional Mire Flyer to the lesser known/used Mire Monk solved the majority of your Dodge problem.
The so-called "Best Builds" are purely called that because they're min-max'd for speed/attack. If everybody started favoring Meditate builds over the faster Scratch builds, I guarantee you we'd see way less complaints about Dodge.
But those builds aren't as popular because they are, in fact, slightly slower and less powerful (at least from what I can see of the actual stat numbers). Does it matter in the grander scheme of things? Probably not, because as you just pointed out the difference in speed/attack is so minimal that it won't make a difference to most casual players and in some cases it's actually better. But it is there.
Again, I can totally support tying the chance of a Dodge to a stat like Agility. However, I know for a fact we're going to see the same problem of certain groups of players not wanting to sacrifice their Strength/Quick builds in order to better combat Dodge. Because the problem is the popular min-max'd builds and playstyles and not specifically Dodge. Would it mitigate part of the problem? Maybe! But it won't fix what I feel is the heart of the problem which is players wanting to have a build that hits hard and fast with absolutely no downsides to it.
I'm not trying to be condescending here, I'm just trying to point out how the "Dodge problem" can already be fixed in some ways by the players themselves if they so choose. If you (general You) don't want to switch to Monk and other tankier builds or simply prefer Scratch builds for one reason or another that's fine, but it's a choice you as a player have made and understand what the risks vs the rewards are.
[/quote]
I'm not sure why a change in build being an improvement invalidates my point to you? My point is specifically two things: one, most of the players who think dodge is at all necessary seem to desperately want more variety in builds, and two, if dodge pushes everyone into one specific build, that's the opposite of their goal.
For reference, because I'm still confused:
[columns]Stat
STR
AGI
VIT
QCK
INT
DEF
MND
[nextcol]Mire Flyer
119
8
19
69
5
5
5
[nextcol]Mire Monk
119
8
33
62
5
6
5[/columns]
Haste: +30 QCK
Rally: +30 STR
First battle for mire monk: Meditate, Meditate, Haste, Enemy Turn x3, Rally, Defend, Enemy Turn x3, Eliminate, Eliminate, Enemy Turn x1, Eliminate [total turns: 15, enemy turns: 7, Final breath: 70]
First battle for mire flyer: Scratch, Scratch, Scratch, Enemy Turn x3, Scratch, Scratch, Enemy Turn x2, Scratch, Enemy Turn x2, Eliminate, Eliminate [total turns: 15, enemy turns: 7, Final breath: 36]
2+ battle for both: Rally, Eliminate, Eliminate, Enemy Turn x1, Eliminate [total turns: 5, enemy turns: 1]
They have literally the exact same STR and the 7 points of QCK are offset by Haste in the only battle that lasts long enough for the slight difference to actually have an impact. They have the exact same number of turns to start, and in subsequent battles.
Where are you getting this idea that players aren't picking the mire monk "because they are, in fact, slightly slower and less powerful" when they just, aren't, at all? Like, we can look at other numbers besides turns if you want, but turns are what matter for a 2-fodder build. You say "The so-called "Best Builds" are purely called that because they're min-max'd for speed/attack. If everybody started favoring Meditate builds over the faster Scratch builds, I guarantee you we'd see way less complaints about Dodge." As though the Monk isn't just as fast and just as strong, and slightly (slightly!) more balanced in stats at the cost of exactly zero turns. They aren't called the best builds because people like the look of a bunch of STR and QCK, they're called that because players have done the research and time trials, and they're the fastest way to churn out levels. The reason the Monk isn't popular (yet) is simply because it's more recent and people just don't know it exists. After the next science push I expect the Monk build to topple the Mire Flyer.[/quote]
...The Mire Monk build has been out for 3 years. I'd hardly call that "recent". This community is capable of working out exact gene odds within weeks of a gene releasing, I'm pretty sure they could have easily run those numbers just as quickly as you have and made a thread about it. The same goes for the other Monk builds. Most of them are at least a several years old. How much more time do they need to become well-known? They're all listed on the same Coli Build guides that players reference and share (although I'll grant you that the name Culex at least has become as close to a "brand name" in builds as possible on this site but that's an outlier).
You can argue with me whether or not the builds are faster or slower than each other but statistically (as in, by the in-game stats you assign to your dragon) Scratch builds are faster than Meditate builds.
You're also only taking one particular scenario into consideration when it comes to speed. Say your attack gets Dodged and you have to rebuild breath (assuming you've got decent enough health left), you can continue to do damage to the remaining opponents while you build it back with a scratch build to the point where you may not even need your rebuilt Elim by the time the battle is almost over. With a Meditate build, you basically can't do anything other than sit there and tank damage until your debuff wears off. They are [i]slower[/i].
Scratch builds also, and this is extremely important, take way less player concentration to utilize. It takes way less player engagement to just scratch/elim enemies to death than juggle 4 different abilities and pay attention to whether you need to haste or not on a turn. That is also why they are faster. Because the player themselves only needs to keep track of 2 abilities at a time. That saves time on the brain-side of thing and makes it endlessly more easy to just mindlessly grind a venue while doing something else, which is exactly what loads of people do.
Again you can argue that it's exactly the same speed either way but it's really not. Not statistically, not in every likely battle scenario, and definitely not on the player concentration-side of things. Otherwise, like you said, these builds would be just as, if not more, popular for avoiding the Dodge problem.
Anyway, I think I've said all I can say here. Jemadar summed up my position on this suggestion far more succinctly than I've been able to anyway so with that I'm outie.
BlueJaysFeather wrote on 2021-04-18 22:49:15:
Twizz wrote on 2021-04-18 17:51:30:
BlueJaysFeather wrote on 2021-04-18 16:44:01:
Twizz wrote on 2021-04-18 15:26:00:
BlueJaysFeather wrote on 2021-04-18 10:14:04:
The other thing is, as I've just recently discovered, dodge doesn't even always nerf eliminate "properly". I rebuilt my mire flyer into a mire monk and now she can be dodged two or three times in a row and just keep rolling. While I kinda think that for me this has solved the dodge problem, the fact that dodge cuts back the number of best builds even more strikes me as the opposite of what the "but muh strategy" folks are going for.
Ah but see. You're using a build that sacrificed a little bit of the speed/attack power for the stability of being able to tank dodges.
This is what I mean when I say that Dodge isn't the problem. The problem is players want to have builds with the highest possible speed/attack but fail to recognize that doing so comes at the risk of being vulnerable to dodged attacks.
If your entire build can be upset by a couple of dodges, that build has a flaw. I'm not saying that makes it a bad build. It just means that build has some drawbacks in addition to it's many pros (speed, higher attack whatever).
If Dodge is a problem for your build in the venue you're grinding/leveling, consider using a build/team that can better handle dodges. But you can't have your cake and eat it too. You can't have a build that you've frontloaded to favor attack strength and/or speed and then get upset when it can't handle being dodged when there's ways to combat that.
I'm not opposed to tying Dodge chances to a specific stat, but I don't think that's going to solve the "problem" people keep bringing up in these suggestions because the problem isn't actually Dodge. It's the builds people are favoring.
It really
really didn't. My turns to eliminate are actually down from 6 to 5 (meditate x2, haste, rally, defend, elim as opposed to scratch x6, elim) and I still oneshot rally+eliminate everything in the mire. I can start against more packs than a mire flyer. I can recover from more dodges than a mire flyer. I can kill wartoads while training two fodder. I'm not sure what speed and attack power you think I sacrificed, but I assure you this is an improvement on every dimension.
You can say what you want about "have your cake and eat it too" but at the end of the day optimization will always win the day, and no condescending "consider using a better team" will change the fact that FR's coliseum favors minmaxing, nor that being dodged 3+ times in a row, run ending or not, feels extremely un-fun.
...You literally just said changing from the traditional Mire Flyer to the lesser known/used Mire Monk solved the majority of your Dodge problem.
The so-called "Best Builds" are purely called that because they're min-max'd for speed/attack. If everybody started favoring Meditate builds over the faster Scratch builds, I guarantee you we'd see way less complaints about Dodge.
But those builds aren't as popular because they are, in fact, slightly slower and less powerful (at least from what I can see of the actual stat numbers). Does it matter in the grander scheme of things? Probably not, because as you just pointed out the difference in speed/attack is so minimal that it won't make a difference to most casual players and in some cases it's actually better. But it is there.
Again, I can totally support tying the chance of a Dodge to a stat like Agility. However, I know for a fact we're going to see the same problem of certain groups of players not wanting to sacrifice their Strength/Quick builds in order to better combat Dodge. Because the problem is the popular min-max'd builds and playstyles and not specifically Dodge. Would it mitigate part of the problem? Maybe! But it won't fix what I feel is the heart of the problem which is players wanting to have a build that hits hard and fast with absolutely no downsides to it.
I'm not trying to be condescending here, I'm just trying to point out how the "Dodge problem" can already be fixed in some ways by the players themselves if they so choose. If you (general You) don't want to switch to Monk and other tankier builds or simply prefer Scratch builds for one reason or another that's fine, but it's a choice you as a player have made and understand what the risks vs the rewards are.
I'm not sure why a change in build being an improvement invalidates my point to you? My point is specifically two things: one, most of the players who think dodge is at all necessary seem to desperately want more variety in builds, and two, if dodge pushes everyone into one specific build, that's the opposite of their goal.
For reference, because I'm still confused:
Stat
STR
AGI
VIT
QCK
INT
DEF
MND
|
Mire Flyer
119
8
19
69
5
5
5
|
Mire Monk
119
8
33
62
5
6
5
|
Haste: +30 QCK
Rally: +30 STR
First battle for mire monk: Meditate, Meditate, Haste, Enemy Turn x3, Rally, Defend, Enemy Turn x3, Eliminate, Eliminate, Enemy Turn x1, Eliminate [total turns: 15, enemy turns: 7, Final breath: 70]
First battle for mire flyer: Scratch, Scratch, Scratch, Enemy Turn x3, Scratch, Scratch, Enemy Turn x2, Scratch, Enemy Turn x2, Eliminate, Eliminate [total turns: 15, enemy turns: 7, Final breath: 36]
2+ battle for both: Rally, Eliminate, Eliminate, Enemy Turn x1, Eliminate [total turns: 5, enemy turns: 1]
They have literally the exact same STR and the 7 points of QCK are offset by Haste in the only battle that lasts long enough for the slight difference to actually have an impact. They have the exact same number of turns to start, and in subsequent battles.
Where are you getting this idea that players aren't picking the mire monk "because they are, in fact, slightly slower and less powerful" when they just, aren't, at all? Like, we can look at other numbers besides turns if you want, but turns are what matter for a 2-fodder build. You say "The so-called "Best Builds" are purely called that because they're min-max'd for speed/attack. If everybody started favoring Meditate builds over the faster Scratch builds, I guarantee you we'd see way less complaints about Dodge." As though the Monk isn't just as fast and just as strong, and slightly (slightly!) more balanced in stats at the cost of exactly zero turns. They aren't called the best builds because people like the look of a bunch of STR and QCK, they're called that because players have done the research and time trials, and they're the fastest way to churn out levels. The reason the Monk isn't popular (yet) is simply because it's more recent and people just don't know it exists. After the next science push I expect the Monk build to topple the Mire Flyer.
...The Mire Monk build has been out for 3 years. I'd hardly call that "recent". This community is capable of working out exact gene odds within weeks of a gene releasing, I'm pretty sure they could have easily run those numbers just as quickly as you have and made a thread about it. The same goes for the other Monk builds. Most of them are at least a several years old. How much more time do they need to become well-known? They're all listed on the same Coli Build guides that players reference and share (although I'll grant you that the name Culex at least has become as close to a "brand name" in builds as possible on this site but that's an outlier).
You can argue with me whether or not the builds are faster or slower than each other but statistically (as in, by the in-game stats you assign to your dragon) Scratch builds are faster than Meditate builds.
You're also only taking one particular scenario into consideration when it comes to speed. Say your attack gets Dodged and you have to rebuild breath (assuming you've got decent enough health left), you can continue to do damage to the remaining opponents while you build it back with a scratch build to the point where you may not even need your rebuilt Elim by the time the battle is almost over. With a Meditate build, you basically can't do anything other than sit there and tank damage until your debuff wears off. They are
slower.
Scratch builds also, and this is extremely important, take way less player concentration to utilize. It takes way less player engagement to just scratch/elim enemies to death than juggle 4 different abilities and pay attention to whether you need to haste or not on a turn. That is also why they are faster. Because the player themselves only needs to keep track of 2 abilities at a time. That saves time on the brain-side of thing and makes it endlessly more easy to just mindlessly grind a venue while doing something else, which is exactly what loads of people do.
Again you can argue that it's exactly the same speed either way but it's really not. Not statistically, not in every likely battle scenario, and definitely not on the player concentration-side of things. Otherwise, like you said, these builds would be just as, if not more, popular for avoiding the Dodge problem.
Anyway, I think I've said all I can say here. Jemadar summed up my position on this suggestion far more succinctly than I've been able to anyway so with that I'm outie.
Honestly? Maybe not remove dodge entirely but lessen the changes of double and triple dodges.
I can live with a single dodge, but when that same enemy randomly gets to dodge me 2-4 times in a row, I’ve got issues. There’s nothing beneficial to being dodged in coli, period, aside from Eliminate’s breath refund. So, of course, getting dodged multiple times is an extremely annoying. And no, it’s not a stat issue. I can spend just as long in the mire not getting dodged as I can going to the mire and getting triple dodged over and over. It’s random and that’s why I hate it.
Would it solve everyone’s problem? No, it won’t. But in this situation no single change to dodge will ever solve everyone’s problem with it. So perhaps lowering the chances of multiple dodges in succession could be a start for some people who really hate dodge.
I don’t understand the hatred of eliminate.
Personally, I’d rather that other stones/builds are brought up to eliminate’s level instead of dragging eliminate down to theirs.
I completely agree that coli needs a big change, but it should be to make other builds stronger instead of weakening the strong builds.
I don’t understand the hatred of eliminate.
Personally, I’d rather that other stones/builds are brought up to eliminate’s level instead of dragging eliminate down to theirs.
I completely agree that coli needs a big change, but it should be to make other builds stronger instead of weakening the strong builds.
I agree with the trade-off points, and imo when staff get around to implementing their agi-affects-dodge plans at least some of the frustration will go away.
I feel that dodge is necessary, but so is player control over it - even if most people stick with the same build because they work out faster in the end.
I agree with the trade-off points, and imo when staff get around to implementing their agi-affects-dodge plans at least some of the frustration will go away.
I feel that dodge is necessary, but so is player control over it - even if most people stick with the same build because they work out faster in the end.
[quote name="WolfByte" date="2021-04-19 07:33:13" ]
I don’t understand the hatred of eliminate.
Personally, I’d rather that other stones/builds are brought up to eliminate’s level instead of dragging eliminate down to theirs.
I completely agree that coli needs a big change, but it should be to make other builds stronger instead of weakening the strong builds.
[/quote]
It isn't a hatred of Eliminate but rather just acknowledging that eliminate is way over powered, compared to any other stone we have.
I believe, based upon the rarity of eliminate (shiny star if I remember correctly), the fact you can't just buy it from the site and a few other factors that eliminate was meant to be a 'end of game' type stone, where people basically used other stones until they finally got an eliminate drop and it would be a 'luxury' to use after that.
Instead the playerbase realized quickly how powerful eliminate was and started focusing all their builds around it.
Do I want eliminate nerfed? No, I don't, I dislike nerfings even when they are needed, but I wouldn't be upset if it were.
However, I don't think eliminate need to be even touched, as I said, just attach the ability to dodge to agility.
Enemies would have to be rebalanced to use this stat, so while some might dodge more, they are weaker, or have less health, while those that are stronger or have more health would be much less likely to dodge.
The same would be for dragons. Dragons with high agility would dodge more often and hit most of the time, even if the enemy dodged, but they would hit for less or be slower or have less health.
Or, people could just keep on using the same builds, sacrificing the ability to dodge (and potentially have crits, since those also tend to be tied to any agility stat in games) and hit dodged creatures for harder hits, faster turns, or more health.
WolfByte wrote on 2021-04-19 07:33:13:
I don’t understand the hatred of eliminate.
Personally, I’d rather that other stones/builds are brought up to eliminate’s level instead of dragging eliminate down to theirs.
I completely agree that coli needs a big change, but it should be to make other builds stronger instead of weakening the strong builds.
It isn't a hatred of Eliminate but rather just acknowledging that eliminate is way over powered, compared to any other stone we have.
I believe, based upon the rarity of eliminate (shiny star if I remember correctly), the fact you can't just buy it from the site and a few other factors that eliminate was meant to be a 'end of game' type stone, where people basically used other stones until they finally got an eliminate drop and it would be a 'luxury' to use after that.
Instead the playerbase realized quickly how powerful eliminate was and started focusing all their builds around it.
Do I want eliminate nerfed? No, I don't, I dislike nerfings even when they are needed, but I wouldn't be upset if it were.
However, I don't think eliminate need to be even touched, as I said, just attach the ability to dodge to agility.
Enemies would have to be rebalanced to use this stat, so while some might dodge more, they are weaker, or have less health, while those that are stronger or have more health would be much less likely to dodge.
The same would be for dragons. Dragons with high agility would dodge more often and hit most of the time, even if the enemy dodged, but they would hit for less or be slower or have less health.
Or, people could just keep on using the same builds, sacrificing the ability to dodge (and potentially have crits, since those also tend to be tied to any agility stat in games) and hit dodged creatures for harder hits, faster turns, or more health.
Support. Dodging doesn't really do much other than serve as an annoyance. Dodging could also be taken from our dragons if balancing is an issue. I'd be willing to trade the ability to have my Mire Flyer dodge a few nasty attacks if it means I don't have to worry about a single Salve Kamaitachi ruining a good run by dodging three times in a row.
If balancing for Eliminate really is an issue I'd suggest having Eliminate also take a small amount of HP from the user (but can't KO them) so there's more of a risk vs. reward aspect in "should I heal or should I risk getting hit and continue to try and steamroll" but in my opinion its strength is worth all of the hassle it takes to get one.
Support. Dodging doesn't really do much other than serve as an annoyance. Dodging could also be taken from our dragons if balancing is an issue. I'd be willing to trade the ability to have my Mire Flyer dodge a few nasty attacks if it means I don't have to worry about a single Salve Kamaitachi ruining a good run by dodging three times in a row.
If balancing for Eliminate really is an issue I'd suggest having Eliminate also take a small amount of HP from the user (but can't KO them) so there's more of a risk vs. reward aspect in "should I heal or should I risk getting hit and continue to try and steamroll" but in my opinion its strength is worth all of the hassle it takes to get one.