I don't want eliminate nerfed, lord no, but I don't mind getting 1 miss once in a while, and I'm not about to destroy the rest of what's left of the coli over it.
TOPIC | Dodge Suggestions
I don't want eliminate nerfed, lord no, but I don't mind getting 1 miss once in a while, and I'm not about to destroy the rest of what's left of the coli over it.
There's people that hate elim? Lol what?
But I'm not exactly sure about removing dodging. I mean heck I'd love it if enemies could never dodge, but I figure that's never going to be implemented and it would mean dragons couldn't either.
I'm not sure if I support new battlestones either unless there is a stat rehauling that makes things more balanced and useful.
That being said I completely support not allowing multiple dodges right after eachother. Mire drives me nuts with getting dodged 2 to 4 times in a row. I've seen a suggestion some years ago that dodge rates should be tied to health, and that the less health one has the less of a chance one can dodge. I did like that idea but have no idea if it could be implemented.
But I'm not exactly sure about removing dodging. I mean heck I'd love it if enemies could never dodge, but I figure that's never going to be implemented and it would mean dragons couldn't either.
I'm not sure if I support new battlestones either unless there is a stat rehauling that makes things more balanced and useful.
That being said I completely support not allowing multiple dodges right after eachother. Mire drives me nuts with getting dodged 2 to 4 times in a row. I've seen a suggestion some years ago that dodge rates should be tied to health, and that the less health one has the less of a chance one can dodge. I did like that idea but have no idea if it could be implemented.
There's people that hate elim? Lol what?
But I'm not exactly sure about removing dodging. I mean heck I'd love it if enemies could never dodge, but I figure that's never going to be implemented and it would mean dragons couldn't either.
I'm not sure if I support new battlestones either unless there is a stat rehauling that makes things more balanced and useful.
That being said I completely support not allowing multiple dodges right after eachother. Mire drives me nuts with getting dodged 2 to 4 times in a row. I've seen a suggestion some years ago that dodge rates should be tied to health, and that the less health one has the less of a chance one can dodge. I did like that idea but have no idea if it could be implemented.
But I'm not exactly sure about removing dodging. I mean heck I'd love it if enemies could never dodge, but I figure that's never going to be implemented and it would mean dragons couldn't either.
I'm not sure if I support new battlestones either unless there is a stat rehauling that makes things more balanced and useful.
That being said I completely support not allowing multiple dodges right after eachother. Mire drives me nuts with getting dodged 2 to 4 times in a row. I've seen a suggestion some years ago that dodge rates should be tied to health, and that the less health one has the less of a chance one can dodge. I did like that idea but have no idea if it could be implemented.
I'm very blunt and straightforward.
Yes, I never use any vistas.
For ease of access: She/Her.
Also I hoard the hyena familiars.
Yes, I never use any vistas.
For ease of access: She/Her.
Also I hoard the hyena familiars.
Nah, no support. I would prefer there to be at least a little bit of challenge at all levels in the coliseum, and removing dodge would make grinding in Mire and other venues even easier, when even with dodge it's already super easy and pretty boring. I agree that the coliseum is in great need of some rebalancing, but I don't think entirely removing dodge is the way to go. Maybe there could be a stone you can equip to prevent enemies from dodging, at the cost of one less Berserker or Ambush or something. So you can have a dodgeless coli experience, but you have to alter your build a bit to make it work.
Nah, no support. I would prefer there to be at least a little bit of challenge at all levels in the coliseum, and removing dodge would make grinding in Mire and other venues even easier, when even with dodge it's already super easy and pretty boring. I agree that the coliseum is in great need of some rebalancing, but I don't think entirely removing dodge is the way to go. Maybe there could be a stone you can equip to prevent enemies from dodging, at the cost of one less Berserker or Ambush or something. So you can have a dodgeless coli experience, but you have to alter your build a bit to make it work.
No support for removing Dodge entirely unless Eliminate is either going to be changed to refund breath or nerfed in some other manner. It's less about challenge and more about making sure that people can't grind the Coli endlessly for profit. It's meant to be an obstacle that either impedes progress or encourages quitting and coming back later.
This person also basically summed up my feelings about why Dodge isn't as big a problem as players often make it out to be:
[quote name="DethJackal" date="2021-04-17 10:09:36" ]
Dodge as an ability stone is an interesting idea. I don’t see it as a nerf for Eliminate. The reason people are saying it is, I think, is because the most popular builds rely heavily on a high-breath move with no other powerful options when it fails. And thus, a build vulnerable to dodge, and often a dragon that has zero backup (single fodder trainers). I’ve noticed that my Workshop farmers (a mage and a fighter, set up to help each other) do not have issues with dodge unless they are almost dead. You’d probably have similar results for any build that didn’t rely on OKHO-ing with eliminate to win. That’s the trade off you make when creating a one-trick glass cannon - in literally any game. Stability for power. The Coliseum rewards power (and risk) greatly. Want rewards? Take a risk. Don’t want to die when your attack misses? Go for stability. That’s the trade-off. It’s not really eliminate that’s the problem; just people not understanding that trade-off. That, like I said, is present in pretty much any game that allows for builds.
I think the dodge stone idea is very interesting, could add in a new bit of strategy to take advantage of. Really, I’m neutral on it. I don’t see the problem you are trying to solve, but this would be an neat change to the Coli regardless.
[/quote]
The same would go for if Dodge was assigned to a stat (I don't think assigning it to a stone makes much sense as it's a passive ability and I can't think of any game that doesn't usually make it as such). Players need to decide how much risk they want to take for how much reward. Do they want a faster leveling team that runs the risk of being fragile and being dodged or do they want a more stable team that's slower but is rarely dodged or can handle dodge risks no problem? Min-Maxing the Coli is a player-created problem and can be fixed by players without interference from the Devs.
No support for removing Dodge entirely unless Eliminate is either going to be changed to refund breath or nerfed in some other manner. It's less about challenge and more about making sure that people can't grind the Coli endlessly for profit. It's meant to be an obstacle that either impedes progress or encourages quitting and coming back later.
This person also basically summed up my feelings about why Dodge isn't as big a problem as players often make it out to be:
The same would go for if Dodge was assigned to a stat (I don't think assigning it to a stone makes much sense as it's a passive ability and I can't think of any game that doesn't usually make it as such). Players need to decide how much risk they want to take for how much reward. Do they want a faster leveling team that runs the risk of being fragile and being dodged or do they want a more stable team that's slower but is rarely dodged or can handle dodge risks no problem? Min-Maxing the Coli is a player-created problem and can be fixed by players without interference from the Devs.
This person also basically summed up my feelings about why Dodge isn't as big a problem as players often make it out to be:
DethJackal wrote on 2021-04-17 10:09:36:
Dodge as an ability stone is an interesting idea. I don’t see it as a nerf for Eliminate. The reason people are saying it is, I think, is because the most popular builds rely heavily on a high-breath move with no other powerful options when it fails. And thus, a build vulnerable to dodge, and often a dragon that has zero backup (single fodder trainers). I’ve noticed that my Workshop farmers (a mage and a fighter, set up to help each other) do not have issues with dodge unless they are almost dead. You’d probably have similar results for any build that didn’t rely on OKHO-ing with eliminate to win. That’s the trade off you make when creating a one-trick glass cannon - in literally any game. Stability for power. The Coliseum rewards power (and risk) greatly. Want rewards? Take a risk. Don’t want to die when your attack misses? Go for stability. That’s the trade-off. It’s not really eliminate that’s the problem; just people not understanding that trade-off. That, like I said, is present in pretty much any game that allows for builds.
I think the dodge stone idea is very interesting, could add in a new bit of strategy to take advantage of. Really, I’m neutral on it. I don’t see the problem you are trying to solve, but this would be an neat change to the Coli regardless.
I think the dodge stone idea is very interesting, could add in a new bit of strategy to take advantage of. Really, I’m neutral on it. I don’t see the problem you are trying to solve, but this would be an neat change to the Coli regardless.
The same would go for if Dodge was assigned to a stat (I don't think assigning it to a stone makes much sense as it's a passive ability and I can't think of any game that doesn't usually make it as such). Players need to decide how much risk they want to take for how much reward. Do they want a faster leveling team that runs the risk of being fragile and being dodged or do they want a more stable team that's slower but is rarely dodged or can handle dodge risks no problem? Min-Maxing the Coli is a player-created problem and can be fixed by players without interference from the Devs.
Support to change or outright removal.
My problem, as I mention in every similar thread, is that dodge just "happens", there's nothing that can affect it to a meaningful degree. If I could take pokemon as an example, pokemon moves can fail depending on accuracy and evasion, both of which have increasing or decreasing items or moves. If you fail due to dodging, you have options what to do differently. As a contrast, in coliseum dodge just happens - sometimes five times in a row, sometimes never and you have absolutely no alternatives if you fail due to dodge. Random events where your only strategy is "bash your head into the wall and hope" are not game balancing features or something that makes the game harder, they just make the game more frustrating and that's not the same as harder.
My problem, as I mention in every similar thread, is that dodge just "happens", there's nothing that can affect it to a meaningful degree. If I could take pokemon as an example, pokemon moves can fail depending on accuracy and evasion, both of which have increasing or decreasing items or moves. If you fail due to dodging, you have options what to do differently. As a contrast, in coliseum dodge just happens - sometimes five times in a row, sometimes never and you have absolutely no alternatives if you fail due to dodge. Random events where your only strategy is "bash your head into the wall and hope" are not game balancing features or something that makes the game harder, they just make the game more frustrating and that's not the same as harder.
Support to change or outright removal.
My problem, as I mention in every similar thread, is that dodge just "happens", there's nothing that can affect it to a meaningful degree. If I could take pokemon as an example, pokemon moves can fail depending on accuracy and evasion, both of which have increasing or decreasing items or moves. If you fail due to dodging, you have options what to do differently. As a contrast, in coliseum dodge just happens - sometimes five times in a row, sometimes never and you have absolutely no alternatives if you fail due to dodge. Random events where your only strategy is "bash your head into the wall and hope" are not game balancing features or something that makes the game harder, they just make the game more frustrating and that's not the same as harder.
My problem, as I mention in every similar thread, is that dodge just "happens", there's nothing that can affect it to a meaningful degree. If I could take pokemon as an example, pokemon moves can fail depending on accuracy and evasion, both of which have increasing or decreasing items or moves. If you fail due to dodging, you have options what to do differently. As a contrast, in coliseum dodge just happens - sometimes five times in a row, sometimes never and you have absolutely no alternatives if you fail due to dodge. Random events where your only strategy is "bash your head into the wall and hope" are not game balancing features or something that makes the game harder, they just make the game more frustrating and that's not the same as harder.
I would quite like the coliseum to have some challenge to it...
...but DODGE ISN’T A CHALLENGE.
It doesn’t actually make the coli more difficult or more interesting. It just makes it slower and more frustrating. The fact that there is a tiny number of builds that massively outperform all the other possibilities is a game design problem, and you don’t solve game design problems by occasionally dropping rocks on players’s heads.
Support for some more nuanced and interesting solution to the game balance issue than ‘the low-level enemies dodge five times and now your l25 team has to start again’. Now, granted game design is hard, and there’s no such thing as a perfectly balanced game, but it can and should be better than this.
...but DODGE ISN’T A CHALLENGE.
It doesn’t actually make the coli more difficult or more interesting. It just makes it slower and more frustrating. The fact that there is a tiny number of builds that massively outperform all the other possibilities is a game design problem, and you don’t solve game design problems by occasionally dropping rocks on players’s heads.
Support for some more nuanced and interesting solution to the game balance issue than ‘the low-level enemies dodge five times and now your l25 team has to start again’. Now, granted game design is hard, and there’s no such thing as a perfectly balanced game, but it can and should be better than this.
I would quite like the coliseum to have some challenge to it...
...but DODGE ISN’T A CHALLENGE.
It doesn’t actually make the coli more difficult or more interesting. It just makes it slower and more frustrating. The fact that there is a tiny number of builds that massively outperform all the other possibilities is a game design problem, and you don’t solve game design problems by occasionally dropping rocks on players’s heads.
Support for some more nuanced and interesting solution to the game balance issue than ‘the low-level enemies dodge five times and now your l25 team has to start again’. Now, granted game design is hard, and there’s no such thing as a perfectly balanced game, but it can and should be better than this.
...but DODGE ISN’T A CHALLENGE.
It doesn’t actually make the coli more difficult or more interesting. It just makes it slower and more frustrating. The fact that there is a tiny number of builds that massively outperform all the other possibilities is a game design problem, and you don’t solve game design problems by occasionally dropping rocks on players’s heads.
Support for some more nuanced and interesting solution to the game balance issue than ‘the low-level enemies dodge five times and now your l25 team has to start again’. Now, granted game design is hard, and there’s no such thing as a perfectly balanced game, but it can and should be better than this.
May be grumpy before coffee. And after coffee. (FR+8)
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The other thing is, as I've just recently discovered, dodge doesn't even always nerf eliminate "properly". I rebuilt my mire flyer into a mire monk and now she can be dodged two or three times in a row and just keep rolling. While I kinda think that for me this has solved the dodge problem, the fact that dodge cuts back the number of best builds even more strikes me as the opposite of what the "but muh strategy" folks are going for.
The other thing is, as I've just recently discovered, dodge doesn't even always nerf eliminate "properly". I rebuilt my mire flyer into a mire monk and now she can be dodged two or three times in a row and just keep rolling. While I kinda think that for me this has solved the dodge problem, the fact that dodge cuts back the number of best builds even more strikes me as the opposite of what the "but muh strategy" folks are going for.
[quote name="BlueJaysFeather" date="2021-04-17 18:09:10" ]
tbh I don't understand the absolute need to punish people who use elim that would get you all the way to "remove the entire utility of the stone in exchange for a change/removal of dodge"
[/quote]
BlueJaysFeather wrote on 2021-04-17 18:09:10:
tbh I don't understand the absolute need to punish people who use elim that would get you all the way to "remove the entire utility of the stone in exchange for a change/removal of dodge"
she/her, 3+ FR time please ping me in forums support empoleon supremacy |
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[quote name="BlueJaysFeather" date="2021-04-18 10:14:04" ]
The other thing is, as I've just recently discovered, dodge doesn't even always nerf eliminate "properly". I rebuilt my mire flyer into a mire monk and now she can be dodged two or three times in a row and just keep rolling. While I kinda think that for me this has solved the dodge problem, the fact that dodge cuts back the number of best builds even more strikes me as the opposite of what the "but muh strategy" folks are going for.
[/quote]
Ah but see. You're using a build that sacrificed a little bit of the speed/attack power for the stability of being able to tank dodges.
This is what I mean when I say that Dodge isn't the problem. The problem is players want to have builds with the highest possible speed/attack but fail to recognize that doing so comes at the risk of being vulnerable to dodged attacks.
If your entire build can be upset by a couple of dodges, that build has a flaw. I'm not saying that makes it a bad build. It just means that build has some drawbacks in addition to it's many pros (speed, higher attack whatever).
If Dodge is a problem for your build in the venue you're grinding/leveling, consider using a build/team that can better handle dodges. But you can't have your cake and eat it too. You can't have a build that you've frontloaded to favor attack strength and/or speed and then get upset when it can't handle being dodged when there's ways to combat that.
I'm not opposed to tying Dodge chances to a specific stat, but I don't think that's going to solve the "problem" people keep bringing up in these suggestions because the problem isn't actually Dodge. It's the builds people are favoring.
BlueJaysFeather wrote on 2021-04-18 10:14:04:
The other thing is, as I've just recently discovered, dodge doesn't even always nerf eliminate "properly". I rebuilt my mire flyer into a mire monk and now she can be dodged two or three times in a row and just keep rolling. While I kinda think that for me this has solved the dodge problem, the fact that dodge cuts back the number of best builds even more strikes me as the opposite of what the "but muh strategy" folks are going for.
Ah but see. You're using a build that sacrificed a little bit of the speed/attack power for the stability of being able to tank dodges.
This is what I mean when I say that Dodge isn't the problem. The problem is players want to have builds with the highest possible speed/attack but fail to recognize that doing so comes at the risk of being vulnerable to dodged attacks.
If your entire build can be upset by a couple of dodges, that build has a flaw. I'm not saying that makes it a bad build. It just means that build has some drawbacks in addition to it's many pros (speed, higher attack whatever).
If Dodge is a problem for your build in the venue you're grinding/leveling, consider using a build/team that can better handle dodges. But you can't have your cake and eat it too. You can't have a build that you've frontloaded to favor attack strength and/or speed and then get upset when it can't handle being dodged when there's ways to combat that.
I'm not opposed to tying Dodge chances to a specific stat, but I don't think that's going to solve the "problem" people keep bringing up in these suggestions because the problem isn't actually Dodge. It's the builds people are favoring.
[quote name="Twizz" date="2021-04-18 15:26:00" ]
[quote name="BlueJaysFeather" date="2021-04-18 10:14:04" ]
The other thing is, as I've just recently discovered, dodge doesn't even always nerf eliminate "properly". I rebuilt my mire flyer into a mire monk and now she can be dodged two or three times in a row and just keep rolling. While I kinda think that for me this has solved the dodge problem, the fact that dodge cuts back the number of best builds even more strikes me as the opposite of what the "but muh strategy" folks are going for.
[/quote]
Ah but see. You're using a build that sacrificed a little bit of the speed/attack power for the stability of being able to tank dodges.
This is what I mean when I say that Dodge isn't the problem. The problem is players want to have builds with the highest possible speed/attack but fail to recognize that doing so comes at the risk of being vulnerable to dodged attacks.
If your entire build can be upset by a couple of dodges, that build has a flaw. I'm not saying that makes it a bad build. It just means that build has some drawbacks in addition to it's many pros (speed, higher attack whatever).
If Dodge is a problem for your build in the venue you're grinding/leveling, consider using a build/team that can better handle dodges. But you can't have your cake and eat it too. You can't have a build that you've frontloaded to favor attack strength and/or speed and then get upset when it can't handle being dodged when there's ways to combat that.
I'm not opposed to tying Dodge chances to a specific stat, but I don't think that's going to solve the "problem" people keep bringing up in these suggestions because the problem isn't actually Dodge. It's the builds people are favoring.
[/quote]
That's the thing. Dodge is a problem in [i]every[/i] venue. Mushrooms dodge as much as psywurms. There is no rhyme or reason to it, it's just a roll of dice.
So why is it necessary to prevent people from "endlessly grinding" or whatever? Why must players choose whether to sacrifice reliability or speed?
Twizz wrote on 2021-04-18 15:26:00:
BlueJaysFeather wrote on 2021-04-18 10:14:04:
The other thing is, as I've just recently discovered, dodge doesn't even always nerf eliminate "properly". I rebuilt my mire flyer into a mire monk and now she can be dodged two or three times in a row and just keep rolling. While I kinda think that for me this has solved the dodge problem, the fact that dodge cuts back the number of best builds even more strikes me as the opposite of what the "but muh strategy" folks are going for.
Ah but see. You're using a build that sacrificed a little bit of the speed/attack power for the stability of being able to tank dodges.
This is what I mean when I say that Dodge isn't the problem. The problem is players want to have builds with the highest possible speed/attack but fail to recognize that doing so comes at the risk of being vulnerable to dodged attacks.
If your entire build can be upset by a couple of dodges, that build has a flaw. I'm not saying that makes it a bad build. It just means that build has some drawbacks in addition to it's many pros (speed, higher attack whatever).
If Dodge is a problem for your build in the venue you're grinding/leveling, consider using a build/team that can better handle dodges. But you can't have your cake and eat it too. You can't have a build that you've frontloaded to favor attack strength and/or speed and then get upset when it can't handle being dodged when there's ways to combat that.
I'm not opposed to tying Dodge chances to a specific stat, but I don't think that's going to solve the "problem" people keep bringing up in these suggestions because the problem isn't actually Dodge. It's the builds people are favoring.
That's the thing. Dodge is a problem in every venue. Mushrooms dodge as much as psywurms. There is no rhyme or reason to it, it's just a roll of dice.
So why is it necessary to prevent people from "endlessly grinding" or whatever? Why must players choose whether to sacrifice reliability or speed?