Flight Rising Discussion

[quote name="lonelyspaceegg" date="2021-07-17 17:43:14" ] [quote name="Sorel" date="2021-07-17 17:23:30" ] which is exactly why all this talk of late about 'Accessibility' and making every item as easy to get as possible 'evening the playing field' for old and new players is nonsense. The only way to close that gap is to devalue every item on site and make them all unlimited in the marketplace at any time and that's just not how pet sims have ever operated in the past. [/quote] To me, accessibility is about reducing reliance on RNG + adding more ways to obtain items. To be clear, by "reducing reliance on RNG" I don't mean making all items unlimited in the MP, I mean making it possible to customize your dreamie without relying on a random mechanic such as the old eye system. With the introduction of eye vials, you really can create any dragon you want through a combination or breeding for color combos [which are predictable] and vials/scrolls. Items don't need to lose value to be accessible imo, there should just be more ways to save up and buy those items, even if it's from other players oh the AH. [/quote] To me, being accessible just means that it isn't retired. it doesn't have to be easy to obtain, and can rely on RNG (though, be careful of relying on RNG, there can be way to much RNG). However, my issue with the eye RNG was that it completely excluded every existing dragon (because the eye vials would have become the new imp scrolls and even at the point that eye vials were introduced, I saw more and more people saying 'I would love to scatter my dragon's eyes, but I am not paying X for uncommon' due to the skewed odds) and that some of the eyes verged on body horror, which imo isn't a good idea to introduce as a random element in an aesthetics based game. (and I don't like the way they introduced the eye vials, there were far better ones outlined in various threads, but, as should be obvious, I am not a developer of the site) I don't feel that a core element of the site (aethetics of your lair) should have such a huge element excluded (every existing dragon), especially when it has been said that dragons were never meant to be profitable. Again, as someone who has played a lot of sites, the ones I tend to stick around on longer are the ones where the main item to collect is fairly easy to be picky over. IE, I don't have to buy 'ugly' dragons just to have a team of dragons. I can afford to be picky and choose 'pretty' dragons that I want to train up. I don't mind high value items (and I include dragons in this, because according to the site, they are an item that can be bought and sold), and I feel that we need more boss familiars or items that it will take months of working towards to obtain. I dislike the threads that tend to popup about 'make pretty pink mums drop more' or 'make them available in a different way' because people feel that they are too hard to obtain. I feel that we need more items LIKE blossom where you aren't going to get it quickly (and if you want to 'level the playing field' make it use a brand new item so that no one can have hoarded quantities of it) More items that just require time and effort to obtain them. Whether it is from another player who is selling, and you have to earn the currency or from the site itself through whatever mechanic drops that item, I don't care. I just feel that trying to make dragons 'valuable' this far out of the site's gate, is a losing proposition. Something like that should have been in effect from the very beginning (and I know they said they wanted eye variants from the beginning, but wanting and having are two different things). (and another note I am glad that FR is taking a step away from the 'norm' on other petsites and not retiring items, but hopefully trying to think of ways to retain value while having those items available permanently) As for the egg thing (not a part of the above reply but to FallenAngel), most new players who get an egg won't realize to sell it. They will want to open it. It is part of the whole 'ooh shiny' aspect that is another 'strike' against new players being on equal footing with older players. New players won't realize what is best to do with the items they find. They might open eggs that are better off being sold, they might hoard sell items that have a use *(though less likely now that we have the indicators that those items DO have a use), or expect that certain actions will make them immediately rich. It is all part of the learning process. Yeah, I like that FR is trying to do its own thing, but there are some things that simply cannot be solved. Simply because that is how things work. As Sorel said, the only way to 'even the playing field' is to basically stick everything in the MP and make it always available, because otherwise, older players will have the knowledge, time, and resources that newer players just don't. (time meaning time they could have spent earning resources, not time as in they have X hours to play a day)

@FallenAngel
but consider: would you rather profitable playing be locked behind boring tasks and patience or behind a paywall?
Stormlight needs to profit SOMEHOW, we can't just get this entire amazing game without paying the people who made it for their hard work. The fact wealth is locked behind boringness is a way to invite people to skip it by paying with USD, while also allowing players who don't have cash to achieve it if only they can spend some time on boringness. It's MUCH BETTER than any other game with "premium" I've ever seen, petsite or not. I wholeheartedly wish EVERYTHING in life had a "work hard to achieve wealth" option.

[quote name="Jemadar" date="2021-07-17 18:12:02" ] To me, being accessible just means that it isn't retired. it doesn't have to be easy to obtain, and can rely on RNG (though, be careful of relying on RNG, there can be way to much RNG). However, my issue with the eye RNG was that it completely excluded every existing dragon (because the eye vials would have become the new imp scrolls and even at the point that eye vials were introduced, I saw more and more people saying 'I would love to scatter my dragon's eyes, but I am not paying X for uncommon' due to the skewed odds) and that some of the eyes verged on body horror, which imo isn't a good idea to introduce as a random element in an aesthetics based game. (and I don't like the way they introduced the eye vials, there were far better ones outlined in various threads, but, as should be obvious, I am not a developer of the site) [/quote] Definitely agree. I guess what I was trying to get at is that I don't think any mechanic should be [i]locked[/i] to RNG. Prior to Bright Eyes, you could [theoretically] get anything you wanted on a dragon without relying on RNG [specific breeds/colors could be gotten reliably through breeding projects, items can be bought from other players]. The only thing you couldn't get without playing the RNG game was a specific eye type. This is why I think eye vials are so great [If I were running the game I would've introduced an NPC that could change a special-eyed dragon's eyes to common in exchange for a vial of their eyetype, keeping some RNG while making it possible to acquire the eyetype by trading vials, but like you said I'm not a dev]. Adrdessing another point in this thread, I don't see why old players having an advantage is a bad thing? It rewards players who have stuck with the site for a long time. Also, I've been playing for just over a year now and I find currency very easy to obtain, at least as a teen in school instead of a job. I don't even feel like I need to spend all my time on the site to earn dragoncash, in fact most of my time on the site is just talking to people on the forums like this which earns no treasure. Not to mention that this community has been so generous, I've been able to get lots of items on my wishlist from gifting threads or just kind giftbombs.

I've always thought it's fine, but a bunch of other people don't. This thread is really interesting!

[quote name="FallenAngel" date="2021-07-17 19:58:05" ] [quote name="Amayai" date="2021-07-17 19:02:25" ] @/FallenAngel but consider: would you rather profitable playing be locked behind boring tasks and patience or behind a paywall? Stormlight needs to profit SOMEHOW, we can't just get this entire amazing game without paying the people who made it for their hard work. The fact wealth is locked behind boringness is a way to invite people to skip it by paying with USD, while also allowing players who don't have cash to achieve it if only they can spend some time on boringness. It's MUCH BETTER than any other game with "premium" I've ever seen, petsite or not. I wholeheartedly wish EVERYTHING in life had a "work hard to achieve wealth" option. [/quote] Where did I say they shouldn't get profits? Where did I say gems shouldn't be a thing? Or where did I say people shouldn't buy gems? It is one thing to spend a little bit of cash each month to complete project, and another to have the following: You do realize the cheapest Light Sprite is 55kg (actually the lowest I have seen it in AGES) which is $550 assuming a flat purchase of 500g:$5 (without the bulk discount). That is astronomical for a single item. [/quote] It's actually quite strange to me howamy people who want things to be more accessible are against bringing back any of the first festival items except incredibly limited numbers through roundsey. I mean the entire reason the light sprite is so insanely valuable is that the site was nigh on un useable for that first festival. You'd think people would agree that the coliseum being a broken mess that first week plus the site actually being down for some of the days would merit more people wanting to make those items easier to get but I made a suggestion thread for it and people were against it. Apparently RNG elements are bad and should all be snuffed out but having some items be incredibly expensive due to the site malfunctioning while they were available is A ok. I don't get why they can't just be added to joxer boxes at this point.

As someone who's had an account since 2016, I think FR has a really good economy. I haven't always played in the timespan I've been here as my interest in the site naturally waxed and waned, but every time I come back to it I feel like whatever goals I set myself are attainable. No matter how much time I feel like putting into the site, I can easily make money; if I'm not feeling super interested, I can spend 20-30 minutes just doing daily tasks and breeding fodder dragons to sell and have a passive source of income that way, or I can spend hours and hours grinding in the fairgrounds and coli if I really feel like it. I can agree that the prices of some retired items like light sprites are unattainable to the point of ridiculousness, but at the same time I don't see a way to fix it that won't massively anger half the site.

I don't really have a conclusion for this, but speaking to one of the original issues brought up: the g:t ratio has gone up before and it's gone down before, and it'll keep doing that as long as the market exists. I'd much rather have steady player-driven inflation that staff can choose to combat via strategic release of new items and features than a set, site-determined g:t ratio.

I don't know anything about economics, it's probably fine?

The phrase "the dragon economy is in shambles" is just extremely funny to me

(Read the thread up to here, but it's late and I might have misread something so uh, any errors here are mine and all that)

I honestly think that the Ancient Breeds system was a really smart idea for the economy- ABs might not be able to wear clothes, but because switching to/between them sets a dragon to trip-Basic (a move that I initially disliked, mind), it means that they retain some value because even if they're not g1, if their parents weren't (that) Ancient, it still shows the work that went into them. I think that's really neat!

Also, treasure/gem ratio is back to 1:1000 thanks to Obels being a treasure breed at a Skydancer price rate (and a fairly popular design despite the gene flaws- I was here for Bogsneaks, a couple weeks after their release you would see almost the same amount as today, which is "not that many"). I saw it up to 1:1500 before this, and also before Banes, so I think the devs are keeping things (decently) in check. Not that there's no screw-ups *glares at eye fiasco* but in general it works out.

Final note- the devs stepped in when Elims were nearing a kg a pop, and then when eye scatters were getting close to that. I'm watching Luminous Halos get up there and wondering, is their fest status gonna exempt them? Or are they gonna get a recolor?

As a newer player, this thread is really interesting to read. I definitely don't understand the economics but I'm seeing a lot of good points, whether I agree, disagree, or just don't know

Personally, I like the rate I'm progressing at, and I do feel like my goals are challenging but attainable (for the most part). I think it's good long-time players are rewarded for their investment, but that RNG keeps things from being too unbalanced. I've thought about things like gathering and Baldwin getting easier with leveling, but I imagine that would make it way easier for older accounts to control the economy

Though there are some things that make me wonder if I'm doing something wrong, or if they're supposed to be that hard. Like, I think it'd take me months to save up enough gems for 1 gem gene. And I've been trying to sell some mid-range stuff on the AH for weeks. I keep re-listing things for the lowest price, but I always get undercut, even when I try to be strategic and keep checking on them. Are prices getting lower overall or am I just unlucky? Are gems really that hard to get without buying them or selling art or something?