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[quote name="Snek" date="2021-05-06 20:28:15" ] [quote name="Jemadar" date="2021-05-06 20:19:41" ] Just want to point out it is more than that. Those are just the people who only donated to THAT level. Nearly all higher tiers also were eligible for the Imperial tier.[/quote] Okay, I'll acknowledge that I did miss that. But, again: Who is actually going to spend and go through [b]all of that[/b] to [b]possibly[/b] get thirty bucks and [b]maybe[/b] a little more back, provided they don't make things worse for everyone (themselves included) on-site, and knowing there's two perfectly valid defenses ready and waiting to counter them? Certainly not 45 people. Definitely not a few hundred. It's still just the staff's word that matters here, not the "legal issues". [/quote] Breaking a contract because you don't think anybody will call you on it- The One Legal Trick Lawyers Don't Want You To Know!!

[quote name="ChocolateKittens" date="2021-05-06 22:13:10" ] [quote name="Snek" date="2021-05-06 20:28:15" ] [quote name="Jemadar" date="2021-05-06 20:19:41" ] Just want to point out it is more than that. Those are just the people who only donated to THAT level. Nearly all higher tiers also were eligible for the Imperial tier.[/quote] Okay, I'll acknowledge that I did miss that. But, again: Who is actually going to spend and go through [b]all of that[/b] to [b]possibly[/b] get thirty bucks and [b]maybe[/b] a little more back, provided they don't make things worse for everyone (themselves included) on-site, and knowing there's two perfectly valid defenses ready and waiting to counter them? Certainly not 45 people. Definitely not a few hundred. It's still just the staff's word that matters here, not the "legal issues". [/quote] Breaking a contract because you don't think anybody will call you on it- The One Legal Trick Lawyers Don't Want You To Know!! [/quote] ^ And no support. This whole suggestion [i]is[/i] a salt post, because from day one, imperials were exclusives. Everyone joined with this being established. Encouraging staff to weasel around legalities is sketchy as all hell.

Whether it be due to verbiage or not, I think that the fact that people are more or less telling others "it's only illegal if you get caught" is really... I want to say concerning but that doesn't even begin to describe how alarming that is no matter how stupid/low cost the item. THAT comes off as desperation and you should definitely not be desperate enough to even suggest such a thing. That... Wow. Just wow. I have already described before - I believe in another thread - my thoughts on Imperials returning so I won't iterate it but... Yeah, no. The fact some of you are encouraging breaking the law just because people probably won't sue over 30$ is really messed up. Just want to point that out...

Anyway, that's all I wanted to say. Gonna pop myself out now.

Edit:
Because it seems to be unclear, I am NOT referring to one specific person here. Between this thread, another, and plenty others, there have been plenty of people saying what I mention above and that it is okay. THOSE are the people I am referring to and think need to take a step back and rethink what they are saying or, at least, suggesting because, in the end, it is a problem if you think a pixel dragon is worth breaking a law or not regardless of how stupid the price.

Now, I want to clarify I know what KS's stance on these things are. The fact is people believe this is an illegal act and are still willing to say that it's okay to ignore that perceived law because it means they can own some pixel dragon on the internet because it has a "clean" bio.

This thread has been a trip to read. lol

Only gonna pop in to say that I don't support it due to the sheer salt that's coating this thread alone. Imperials should stay KS exclusive (along with other KS rewards, because, yaknow, people paid and supported to get the site up and running in the first place), and trying to find loopholes and ways to introduce new first generation Imperials is honestly scummy as hell.

If your priority is a first generation Imperial, I only wish you good luck on your journey. It'll be hell, but it's the trip that makes it fun.

[quote name="ChocolateKittens" date="2021-05-06 22:13:10" ]Breaking a contract because you don't think anybody will call you on it- The One Legal Trick Lawyers Don't Want You To Know!![/quote] Setting aside that this quote provides no actual useful feedback, and is just being snappy because disagreements: First, I never said in either post that they should. I was saying only that "legal issues" is not the huge, million-dollar, site-destroying threat everyone acts like it would be when this topic comes up, and that it's also an unreasonable enough situation that it would take a unicorn of an angry, dedicated person with sufficient spare time and money to try going that far over [i]thirty dollars[/i]. For that reason, I always find it a silly boogeyman argument to hinge everything on. Now, someone may be upset by a rerelease, and they may choose to leave and take with them whatever money they spend, if any. That's a valid concern! It's entirely possible! This is also the part that is far more productive to focus on than "but what about lawsuits"--and that's [i]before[/i] getting into players who are not Kickstarter backers or don't care about the "legal issues" but would consider leaving too, just as happens with other updates people don't like. This side of things is what is [i]far more likely[/i] to destroy the site. Which comes down to staff's already-battered word mattering most, like I said. Second, anyone who thinks companies don't do things that aren't in line with a (very questionable at this point) definition of what would be legal because they do calculations and decide the financial hit of a potential lawsuit/loss of customers is small enough not to care about has a lot to learn about the current ugly state of capitalism. I am not suggesting this is what FR's staff is like, to be clear. Based on things like not subscribing to the crunch development phenomenon and thoughtful, socially-based adjustments they've made to try to support their community members, I [i]do not[/i] personally think they're like that. I'm saying it's naive to approach the world as a whole with that outlook, and following this up with a consideration of a hypothetical scenario intended solely to underline my earlier points: If, at some point, all or most of the relevant KS backers stopped playing, and the staff examined the available data and determined that they could appropriately weather whatever storm there was and rake in far more cash than they stood to lose by rereleasing those items... then, again, it'd be down to staff's word mattering most. There'd be nobody to potentially throw "legal issues" in as an actual wrench. So! How much trust do players (myself included) put in staff to maintain their current position? How many players would be upset, [i]regardless[/i] of the specific reason, if they changed it? Would they actually leave for good instead of adjusting, and if so, how much do they spend? [b]Those[/b] are the questions that matter to me, because they're the ones that are certain to have an effect. Not the ghost of a tiny, improbable, not-guaranteed-to-win individual court case filed on a squishy definition of "legal" rattling its chains. In the interest of staying clear after all that: [i]I am not encouraging staff to break the law.[/i] I am simply pointing out that "legal issues" is not even a guaranteed argument based on the circumstances surrounding Imperials' origins, let alone one certain to always be relevant, reasonably actionable, or viewed as a sufficient roadblock. As such, I feel it is more productive to focus one's refusals on backer and non-backer player perceptions/how trustworthy staff's word is on this kind of thing. Would I myself like eggs, or scrolls, or whatever? Sure. I'm not going to deny that; I didn't in those posts and I won't now. But I also still think this is the one hill the staff is probably going to stay standing on forever--or will at least [i]try[/i] to stay on. And I don't believe it's at all wise for this site to attempt weathering another drama hurricane on the level this would cause any time soon after seeing everything both eye updates did. I think the uproars over locking older dragons out of a new thing or the financial topsy-turvy that came about from opening up special eye availability have both been incredibly damaging. I can't imagine the hellish firestorm that would happen the minute Imp eggs, Imp scrolls, or Imp item-that-makes-scrolls-redundant-but-technically-still-retired items got released at any point in the next two or three years. Maybe I'd change my mind in the future based on the overall feelings of the playerbase and how smooth the sailing was at that time. If that was what the majority wanted and were okay with, and it wouldn't trash the site's finances, and the staff decided it was time (and hadn't severely bruised my trust over and over between now and then), I'd be happy to have my egg/scroll/whatever. Right now, though? No. Not at the cost I presently fear. [i][Mildly edited per apology and promise to Lykos.][/i]

I'm relatively new to this, however with what experience I do have: Wouldn't re-releasing imps make them less valuable not only monetarily but in terms of how special they are? Like, I understand wanting the shiny thing. But consider why you want it, search deep down in your heart of hearts and if you want it because it's rare: Then what's the point in making it more common? If it's not the reason then one would just have to come to terms with the fact that Imperials are a KS backer reward and they simply lost out on getting an easy gen 1 imp.
Notice the easy there. It's still possible. Difficult, but possible.
I'm working towards getting one (in the very early stages rn) but until then, it's my White Whale and I'll prolly quit the game since I'll have peaked then. (not really)

Idk, maybe I have a different outlook on this because I'm a filthy casual. (Joke)

@Snek You misunderstand and seem to think I am looking at you with my statements. I am not. So no need to be snappy. Quite frankly, if I were even talking of/to you, I would quote or ping you. I have put nothing in your mouth, so kindly not put your name in [i]my[/i] mouth. Thanks. SO my edit since clearly assumptions were made. [quote] Edit: Because it seems to be unclear, I am NOT referring to one specific person here. Between this thread, another, and plenty others, there have been plenty of people saying what I mention above and that it is okay. THOSE are the people I am referring to and think need to take a step back and rethink what they are saying or, at least, suggesting because, in the end, it is a problem if you think a pixel dragon is worth breaking a law or not regardless of how stupid the price. Now, I want to clarify I know what KS's stance on these things are. The fact is people believe this is an illegal act and are still willing to say that it's okay to ignore that perceived law because it means they can own some pixel dragon on the internet because it has a "clean" bio.[/quote] Also, I will just quote what I said earlier in the thread since apparently this is the same thread that I posted before (can we not change the name for a fourth time please? It was fine the first two times and can cause confusion). [quote name="Lykos" date="2021-05-04 15:11:14" ] I'd like to point out the KS, from what I remember, said Imperials themselves were a KS exclusive breed. That means releasing them via eggs isn't even a loophole because the breed itself was exclusive. We only have later generation Imperials floating around because KS backers bred and sold them to the community as a whole. Had they not, the entire breed from G1 and later would be locked behind KS entirely. Of course, that excludes if they had sold scrolls and G1 Imperials they scrolled early on. The scrolls are not what was exclusive. As for legality, it's not actually against KS or the law to re-release Imperial scrolls either from what I can tell (but I am not a lawyer, and I am not going to argue legalities). The only line that relates to this is where it states that creators must deliver on their items. KS exclusive was a thing made by creators to help encourage people to give money to the project and provide further incentive because it's that idea of "no one else will have this but you!" There's nothing in the KS terms that states they need to keep items exclusive. Just that they need to deliver what backers paid for. That aside, this doesn't make it okay to actually re-release something that was promised to be exclusive. This isn't just something that can be equated to a Coatl scroll or be charged more for by the site. People that put money into crowdfunding like KS are putting faith in that the site will be successful. However, there's no guarantee. It's a risk that the creator may not get far enough and the site could just end up shutting down. Luckily this didn't happen, but the point is why should anyone else be rewarded with something like this when it was a risk? Even ignoring that, I'll iterate what I have said before on other similar threads: FR's most ideal course of action is to send out an email notification as well as, perhaps, a ping to a hidden thread (which most forums can do) that only staff and backers can see. Then ask them for their thoughts on if they want Imperial scrolls and/or other KS items to be reintroduced. There should be a majority goal, and only one vote per player (so a thread for the answer and a thread for discussion between backers would be most ideal for less clutter). By majority goal, I mean no acceptance on 50:50. Ideally, the percentage to consider majority should be around 70% or more to ensure they have no technicalities of "well it was only a couple percent higher". 70% is a solid portion of a community of backers. Of course, many backers are inactive now and I understand that. However, that is why I believe sending out an email is also ideal. If they miss the email or don't care, then they abstain. I only mention this because Digital Extremes did this exact same thing for an in-game weapon set that was promised to be beta only. Much of the community wanted to see their return and, eventually, they did return because those beta players actually didn't care if the weapons were brought back. This entire endeavor was actually well received. However, one can also argue (using the same developer/game as an example) that the Founder's Pack was also the closest they had to a KS campaign, and with similar promises. It hasn't been brought back at all. Now, I don't know if they did a poll for that too and it just went poorly and I have no way of knowing. I don't have anyone that actually could confirm or deny that. Still, that wasn't even a KS campaign and they've stuck by their word. TLDR; I don't care if the items come back or not. I would love if the scrolls returned because Imperials are my favorite breed. However, I think this shouldn't be our decision or even the developers'. They should ask the backers if they would mind because it was promised to them. Not you, not me, not anyone else. The backers. [/quote] With the addition that I think if no backers do, in fact, respond that they then abstain from the situation as a whole. That means if absolutely zero backers respond if an email is sent out, then the site can do what they feel may be best. That is Stormlight's decision and they know better than any of us what is best for their site.

[quote name="Lykos" date="2021-05-07 00:35:24" ] (at)Snek You misunderstand and seem to think I am looking at you with my statements. I am not. So no need to be snappy. Quite frankly, if I were even talking of/to you, I would quote or ping you. I have put nothing in your mouth, so kindly not put your name in [i]my[/i] mouth. Thanks.[/quote] I am grown enough to admit that I had incorrectly thought that was vague-style posting aimed at me because it followed the two before it, and that's on me. I apologize for my mistake, and will go in a moment to adjust my earlier post to reflect this, so that I still am making my stance to others clear without word-in-mouthing you in the process. [quote]With the addition that I think if no backers do, in fact, respond that they then abstain from the situation as a whole. That means if absolutely zero backers respond if an email is sent out, then the site can do what they feel may be best. That is Stormlight's decision and they know better than any of us what is best for their site. [/quote] This I agree with also.

No support. Imperials are available, you can breed them yourself to get the parents' names you want too. Listen, I get being a G1 lair and wanting to include Imperials, but this has been like a Day One thing and it wouldn't be fair of FR staff to walk back on that. The first eye update was handled poorly and needed to be fixed eventually.

I think the better suggestion would be to change something about the lineage box. It shouldn't remove the vanity value of G1s, but it would be neat if you could change it to just say "Unknown". Most people would know it's meant to hide mistakes and G1 dragons would still look better by being able to show off their real lineage. (Of course you'd probably have to add a link to the dragon's documented lineage as to not break an aspect of the game, this would just be a vanity option.)

And an Imperial with a clean lineage box is pretty much the goal, right?

[quote name="Romaki" date="2021-05-07 00:58:35" ] No support. Imperials are available, you can breed them yourself to get the parents' names you want too. Listen, I get being a G1 lair and wanting to include Imperials, but this has been like a Day One thing and it wouldn't be fair of FR staff to walk back on that. The first eye update was handled poorly and needed to be fixed eventually. I think the better suggestion would be to change something about the lineage box. It shouldn't remove the vanity value of G1s, but it would be neat if you could change it to just say "Unknown". Most people would know it's meant to hide mistakes and G1 dragons would still look better by being able to show off their real lineage. (Of course you'd probably have to add a link to the dragon's documented lineage as to not break an aspect of the game, this would just be a vanity option.) And an Imperial with a clean lineage box is pretty much the goal, right? [/quote] Perhaps a toggle only you can see? I do projects for other people via DWF and just trying to get friends some goals when and where I can. However, if I can't see where in the line I messed up in terms of relations (or where in the line the dragon is related to an ideal mate), I can't then figure out how many generations to breed of that dragon before I can breed with the dragon I had originally intended. For many projects that include rare combos or just have few starting points available (IE one I am doing right now and the one I did before especially), it's easier to know where in the line you are and how far you need to breed to be able to use the breeder/s you have that may be close to the goal already. That said, I think this could help in general if people can toggle this on a dragon or account-wide personal side for parents and offspring but only for their own view. Not even just for Imperials, but something tells me most in this thread probably aren't looking just for that. I'm one of them, but I also don't mind saving a ton to get a true G1 Imperial. Though the more salt and hard feelings I see over the matter the more I really think that this just needs to be left alone... I don't want something brought back over hard feelings and sour attitudes. [quote name="Snek" date="2021-05-07 00:54:47" ] [quote name="Lykos" date="2021-05-07 00:35:24" ] (at)Snek You misunderstand and seem to think I am looking at you with my statements. I am not. So no need to be snappy. Quite frankly, if I were even talking of/to you, I would quote or ping you. I have put nothing in your mouth, so kindly not put your name in [i]my[/i] mouth. Thanks.[/quote] I am grown enough to admit that I had incorrectly thought that was vague-style posting aimed at me because it followed the two before it, and that's on me. I apologize for my mistake, and will go in a moment to adjust my earlier post to reflect this, so that I still am making my stance to others clear without word-in-mouthing you in the process. [/quote] It's fine. I can see where you got that from. I see your points made and have no issues with them or anything. I was just reading through the other replies and some were really concerning. As stated, I really don't think this situation would even be illegal in the first place (so I do find it mildly amusing people are arguing this, though moreso because I feel that's not even what should be the main concern with the whole situation at this point). I just find it to be really alarming some people believe it is illegal but are still willing to say that these things should be brought back anyway because "who cares about 30$ in court?" I agree it would be really stupid and trivial to sue over 30$ but ignoring that it's just... I don't know. I don't think it's even that important or serious to just suggest breaking a (perceived or not) law over. Edit: And of course many didn't necessarily literally say that (and I can see now where you got the idea in that I referred to you in saying it this way and I apologize; the wording was just better than what I could actually think of and fit what I was going for), but it's effectively summarizing what was said or, really, what was also implied in some cases. You definitely weren't one of them and I would argue you were arguing quite the opposite if anything at all (hopefully that made sense).