[quote name="5inthemorning" date="2021-01-28 04:50:59" ]
just jumping in to say that while i don't not support dom fatigue of some kind, i think it's gonna be a pretty hard sell to the devs. most f2p games, FR especially, want to be pretty careful about applying penalties of any kind because players often react the worst way to them :( i feel like the best way to get around this would be applying a "rest bonus" of some kind? like if you don't place in the top 3 or top 5 of one week, your flight will get a boon for the next week. (probably not have them stack though lol). in lore this could be seen as preparation for battle - a flight's forces carefully rationing and gathering resources, scouting the enemies without engaging, caring for the injured, training the newly enlisted... i don't think this would discourage the heavy exalters at all, but maybe if they wanted an excuse to rest their wrists or something this could be it lol
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Fatigue wasn't originally a thing! Ice is to blame for it haha, they were winning so often in the early days of site that Dom Fatigue was put in place - and it was a very popular idea. I don't think it would get a very negative reception to have scaled-down fatigue for second and third (e.g. 10%, 5%, 2%)
5inthemorning wrote on 2021-01-28 04:50:59:
just jumping in to say that while i don't not support dom fatigue of some kind, i think it's gonna be a pretty hard sell to the devs. most f2p games, FR especially, want to be pretty careful about applying penalties of any kind because players often react the worst way to them :( i feel like the best way to get around this would be applying a "rest bonus" of some kind? like if you don't place in the top 3 or top 5 of one week, your flight will get a boon for the next week. (probably not have them stack though lol). in lore this could be seen as preparation for battle - a flight's forces carefully rationing and gathering resources, scouting the enemies without engaging, caring for the injured, training the newly enlisted... i don't think this would discourage the heavy exalters at all, but maybe if they wanted an excuse to rest their wrists or something this could be it lol
Fatigue wasn't originally a thing! Ice is to blame for it haha, they were winning so often in the early days of site that Dom Fatigue was put in place - and it was a very popular idea. I don't think it would get a very negative reception to have scaled-down fatigue for second and third (e.g. 10%, 5%, 2%)
[quote name="somnomania" date="2021-01-27 23:52:51" ]
[quote name="Jessyta" date="2021-01-27 14:37:53" ]
...and site lore should not change simply because the playerbase created an issue and now we want it fixed.
I still think that making the rewards for placing in the top 3 more appealing would greatly help motivate people to not just exalt, but also to use the money they earn from the fairgrounds to help their flight when they push.
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i really don't see this as being a playerbase issue, it's more something that's happened since flight swapping was introduced. i remember way back in the olden days when earth hardly ever got dom except for during rockbreaker's. then people could change flights, loads of people shuffled around, etc. no, the site staff couldn't have predicted it, but.
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While I agree that the ability to change flights plays a major role in what is going on now, the ability to change flights has been in place for 7 years (introduced in October of 2013). The problem people have with how dom currently works seems to be that a small flight with a large percentage of players that exalt a lot of dragons regularly is able to place high on the leaderboard often... that is a much newer issue (although I do recall people complaining that dom was broken back when other, larger flights did it, like Light).
RE: earning treasure... people have suggested making things like playing Fairgrounds games tie into dominance. The statement I made that you quoted was simply pointing out that right now, earning treasure via the Fairgrounds already can tie into a flight's dominance efforts by the way of donations to help a flight push, however it is my belief that many players are unwilling to help fund pushes because the benefits that they get if their flight succeeds are so small.
somnomania wrote on 2021-01-27 23:52:51:
Jessyta wrote on 2021-01-27 14:37:53:
...and site lore should not change simply because the playerbase created an issue and now we want it fixed.
I still think that making the rewards for placing in the top 3 more appealing would greatly help motivate people to not just exalt, but also to use the money they earn from the fairgrounds to help their flight when they push.
i really don't see this as being a playerbase issue, it's more something that's happened since flight swapping was introduced. i remember way back in the olden days when earth hardly ever got dom except for during rockbreaker's. then people could change flights, loads of people shuffled around, etc. no, the site staff couldn't have predicted it, but.
While I agree that the ability to change flights plays a major role in what is going on now, the ability to change flights has been in place for 7 years (introduced in October of 2013). The problem people have with how dom currently works seems to be that a small flight with a large percentage of players that exalt a lot of dragons regularly is able to place high on the leaderboard often... that is a much newer issue (although I do recall people complaining that dom was broken back when other, larger flights did it, like Light).
RE: earning treasure... people have suggested making things like playing Fairgrounds games tie into dominance. The statement I made that you quoted was simply pointing out that right now, earning treasure via the Fairgrounds already can tie into a flight's dominance efforts by the way of donations to help a flight push, however it is my belief that many players are unwilling to help fund pushes because the benefits that they get if their flight succeeds are so small.
[quote name="Almedha" date="2021-01-28 08:23:47" ]
I'm observing that (whether or not it solves the problem) individual rewards are not changing site lore. That's all. Not about changing it from exalting. I'll delete it if it's just a huge issue.
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Yeah, that's why I think you are confused, because my comments about changing lore have nothing to do with the *rewards* but rather the method used to determine how flights place.
I've actually stated in other comments that I think individual rewards being given to the members of the flights that place in the top 3 would be a good thing. :)
Almedha wrote on 2021-01-28 08:23:47:
I'm observing that (whether or not it solves the problem) individual rewards are not changing site lore. That's all. Not about changing it from exalting. I'll delete it if it's just a huge issue.
Yeah, that's why I think you are confused, because my comments about changing lore have nothing to do with the *rewards* but rather the method used to determine how flights place.
I've actually stated in other comments that I think individual rewards being given to the members of the flights that place in the top 3 would be a good thing. :)
There was a suggestion I've seen pop up in the suggestions forum a few times for a exalt shop, where exalting would give some kind of non-transferable "currency" to buy things in there that I think might help incentivize at least light exalting from more players, and possibly also disincentivize sending dragons OOF, at least slightly, because in doing so you would be losing out on the exalt shop currency. And since OOF support is one of the main issues with dom battles as they exist currently, I think both of those things would be valuable.
I also wouldn't mind a change in fatigue, especially adding a slight amount to 2nd and 3th places, because I think it'd be good if those bonuses got spread around more flights.
There was a suggestion I've seen pop up in the suggestions forum a few times for a exalt shop, where exalting would give some kind of non-transferable "currency" to buy things in there that I think might help incentivize at least light exalting from more players, and possibly also disincentivize sending dragons OOF, at least slightly, because in doing so you would be losing out on the exalt shop currency. And since OOF support is one of the main issues with dom battles as they exist currently, I think both of those things would be valuable.
I also wouldn't mind a change in fatigue, especially adding a slight amount to 2nd and 3th places, because I think it'd be good if those bonuses got spread around more flights.
Back after over a year and I see this is still a thing. I'm kinda glad it's not on my flight anymore because it was sad to see people bitter about a bunch of people I love, but still, it's rough that Earth's got the rep now.
I still think the largest factor here is flight culture. Light's dom culture remains a bit of a meme, Earth is clearly the dedicated flight I remember it being, and the flights who've gotten bigger or moved away from a competitive culture continue falling behind on the leaderboards.
I'm curious, how many people breed fodder dragons? Like, purely for exalt profit? How many exalt those themselves, how many sell them for others to exalt? How many have their own leveling teams?
Maybe exalting needs more incentive behind it. I always liked the extra cash money, but different things motivate different people. If you're not into exalting just for profit, what would motivate you to start?
Back after over a year and I see this is still a thing. I'm kinda glad it's not on my flight anymore because it was sad to see people bitter about a bunch of people I love, but still, it's rough that Earth's got the rep now.
I still think the largest factor here is flight culture. Light's dom culture remains a bit of a meme, Earth is clearly the dedicated flight I remember it being, and the flights who've gotten bigger or moved away from a competitive culture continue falling behind on the leaderboards.
I'm curious, how many people breed fodder dragons? Like, purely for exalt profit? How many exalt those themselves, how many sell them for others to exalt? How many have their own leveling teams?
Maybe exalting needs more incentive behind it. I always liked the extra cash money, but different things motivate different people. If you're not into exalting just for profit, what would motivate you to start?
[quote name="Pennifeather" date="2021-01-28 11:08:07" ]
I'm curious, how many people breed fodder dragons? Like, purely for exalt profit? How many exalt those themselves, how many sell them for others to exalt? How many have their own leveling teams?
Maybe exalting needs more incentive behind it. I always liked the extra cash money, but different things motivate different people. If you're not into exalting just for profit, what would motivate you to start?
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I am trying to set up my own fodder breeders to sell. I tend to use them to get myself into the coliseum outside festivals, though it doesn't always work. (sadly some of the color combos I want don't exist yet)
As for what would motivate me to start exalting my own dragons, I think an exalt shop would do it, which is sort of why I want it.
(as a caveat, I don't breed my fodder breeders often, nor do I train fast, I can keep fodder dragons for months before I finally sell them :P)
Pennifeather wrote on 2021-01-28 11:08:07:
I'm curious, how many people breed fodder dragons? Like, purely for exalt profit? How many exalt those themselves, how many sell them for others to exalt? How many have their own leveling teams?
Maybe exalting needs more incentive behind it. I always liked the extra cash money, but different things motivate different people. If you're not into exalting just for profit, what would motivate you to start?
I am trying to set up my own fodder breeders to sell. I tend to use them to get myself into the coliseum outside festivals, though it doesn't always work. (sadly some of the color combos I want don't exist yet)
As for what would motivate me to start exalting my own dragons, I think an exalt shop would do it, which is sort of why I want it.
(as a caveat, I don't breed my fodder breeders often, nor do I train fast, I can keep fodder dragons for months before I finally sell them :P)
I don't know how well they'd actually work, but I have a couple of thoughts.
What if, perhaps in addition to or instead of the stacking fatigue that a Flight gets if it Dominates two or more weeks in a row, there was a total based one?
Like, say every time a Flight Dominates it increases a number, and then that number is compared to the average of every other Flight's number. If it's higher, the Flight gets increased difficulty in gaining Dominance that's proportional to how much higher the number is, and the reverse is true for Flights that have a lower number. Something like that. It could possibly reset every so often too.
Also, I think that maybe there should be an incentive added to selling dragons on the Flight specific Auction House section, like no Treasure tax, and/or perhaps even gaining a small portion of the Treasure you would have got if you exalted the dragon yourself instead of selling as a bonus.
That way, people would be incentivised towards selling fodder dragons to others in their own Flight, and it would give a feature that almost no one really uses a purpose.
I don't know how well they'd actually work, but I have a couple of thoughts.
What if, perhaps in addition to or instead of the stacking fatigue that a Flight gets if it Dominates two or more weeks in a row, there was a total based one?
Like, say every time a Flight Dominates it increases a number, and then that number is compared to the average of every other Flight's number. If it's higher, the Flight gets increased difficulty in gaining Dominance that's proportional to how much higher the number is, and the reverse is true for Flights that have a lower number. Something like that. It could possibly reset every so often too.
Also, I think that maybe there should be an incentive added to selling dragons on the Flight specific Auction House section, like no Treasure tax, and/or perhaps even gaining a small portion of the Treasure you would have got if you exalted the dragon yourself instead of selling as a bonus.
That way, people would be incentivised towards selling fodder dragons to others in their own Flight, and it would give a feature that almost no one really uses a purpose.
[quote name="Pennifeather" date="2021-01-28 11:08:07" ]
I'm curious, how many people breed fodder dragons? Like, purely for exalt profit? How many exalt those themselves, how many sell them for others to exalt? How many have their own leveling teams?
Maybe exalting needs more incentive behind it. I always liked the extra cash money, but different things motivate different people. If you're not into exalting just for profit, what would motivate you to start?
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most of my hatchlings end up as exalt fodder! i just slap pairs onto nests because the preview offspring look interesting, and if i happen to get a good-looking hatchling out of a nest, i put them on the auction house, where nine out of ten times they don't get sold and end up exalted with the rest of the brood. yes, i could get more from exalting if i trained them first, but that takes effort and is usually boring to me, so i take what i can get. [emoji=fae laughing size=1]
Pennifeather wrote on 2021-01-28 11:08:07:
I'm curious, how many people breed fodder dragons? Like, purely for exalt profit? How many exalt those themselves, how many sell them for others to exalt? How many have their own leveling teams?
Maybe exalting needs more incentive behind it. I always liked the extra cash money, but different things motivate different people. If you're not into exalting just for profit, what would motivate you to start?
most of my hatchlings end up as exalt fodder! i just slap pairs onto nests because the preview offspring look interesting, and if i happen to get a good-looking hatchling out of a nest, i put them on the auction house, where nine out of ten times they don't get sold and end up exalted with the rest of the brood. yes, i could get more from exalting if i trained them first, but that takes effort and is usually boring to me, so i take what i can get.
[quote name="After" date="2021-01-26 12:33:02" ]
[b]on some level i agree, but it's important to consider community culture as well. a good chunk of the big Dom players and active folks that like to exalt for profit? they're in Earth. it's become The Place To Be for things like Dom discounts and such, which means there's less competition in other flights over casual (non-push) board placement.[/b]
even if staff pushes some systematic fixes, it may not help as much as non-Earth players might like, simply due to the community spread of those who Dom vs those who don't. fixing the system is much more easily said than done, i think.
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^^^This. I've spent most of my 6 years in Earth and I can tell you, we've always loved dom but we never used to win this much. While I agree that the mechanic could use some rebalancing, the entire point of how it is now is not to give much smaller flights 'an unfair advantage' but rather the opposite. When you have 10s of 1000s less users and millions less dragons and money at your disposal, there needs to be something in your favor. If size was the only deciding factor we'd see the other small flights dominating nearly as frequently as Earth and we just don't.
After wrote on 2021-01-26 12:33:02:
on some level i agree, but it's important to consider community culture as well. a good chunk of the big Dom players and active folks that like to exalt for profit? they're in Earth. it's become The Place To Be for things like Dom discounts and such, which means there's less competition in other flights over casual (non-push) board placement.
even if staff pushes some systematic fixes, it may not help as much as non-Earth players might like, simply due to the community spread of those who Dom vs those who don't. fixing the system is much more easily said than done, i think.
^^^This. I've spent most of my 6 years in Earth and I can tell you, we've always loved dom but we never used to win this much. While I agree that the mechanic could use some rebalancing, the entire point of how it is now is not to give much smaller flights 'an unfair advantage' but rather the opposite. When you have 10s of 1000s less users and millions less dragons and money at your disposal, there needs to be something in your favor. If size was the only deciding factor we'd see the other small flights dominating nearly as frequently as Earth and we just don't.
Would love to see some kind of dom overhaul. I love doing dom but I feel like no matter how hard my flight and I try or how much I exalt there is no chance of ever winning because earth always just wins without hardly any effort. Even if it was just something like having it so a single flight could only win once a month would be a blessing because at least then other flights could have a shot and maybe then it might become worthwhile to try and go for dom and we could see that dom culture I've heard of return.
Would love to see some kind of dom overhaul. I love doing dom but I feel like no matter how hard my flight and I try or how much I exalt there is no chance of ever winning because earth always just wins without hardly any effort. Even if it was just something like having it so a single flight could only win once a month would be a blessing because at least then other flights could have a shot and maybe then it might become worthwhile to try and go for dom and we could see that dom culture I've heard of return.
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