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i also despise the fact that most of the suspicion on tangle comes from "oh she was awake during n1 and witnessed berry's king claim!"

like. C'MON, that's such an obvious thing to do, and tanglefire being scum is always about being sneaky and more sneaky. and! mafchat is on discord i.e. completely separate from fr which means scum could very well be slinking in the shadows and witnessing the kingclaim WITHOUT posting in-thread.

@ town, don't just hop onto a bandwagon because someone else gave convincing evidence about THEIR views. there's a 1/3 chance they could be scum trying to mislead you.

24 hours to go! Have funnnnn

[b][size=5]ISO on @Lyrelore[/b][/size] [quote name="lyrelore" date="2022-11-28 17:56:12" ] i do just want to quickly point out that, on d1, we have next to no info on basically everybody, but it's still important to point fingers to stir up discussion. Tangle pointing fingers at you resulted in you telling us A LOT about how you feel about the game, your strategy, views on other strategies, etc. so that was a very good move on Tangle's part i think. ultimately i'm not sus of Tangle just for pointing fingers at you - - - [quote name="seethingLloron" date="2022-11-28 17:39:16" ] <snip> [/quote] i think i agree with this. ofc it won't always be in town's favor to lie about the votes but i can see how it'd be useful - lying about one's vote could make them less of a target to mafia, thereby possibly saving their life. of course i can also see how it could be a bit troublesome doing reads and investigating when you know that lying about your vote is a valid option that people might do, but i can certainly see how it'd be advantageous as well [/quote] Soft defending me. It was actually pretty good but general point. Might also be subtly pushing Seething to a less good position but overall nothing wrong with this post tbh. [quote name="lyrelore" date="2022-11-28 20:11:02" ] maybe newbie question alert but why would Mafia EVER roleclaim? unless they know it'll be useful for them to get voted out via an ability or something... and i don't see anything like that among our roles for this game [/quote] Pretty general neutral point. Pointing out common knowledge which…well, I guess wasn’t very common back during then but. Also shows they at least know the mafia roles. Note that down this will come up later. [quote name="lyrelore" date="2022-11-28 20:26:27" ] (not gonna ping you again so soon) i'm confused, what question did i dodge? [/quote] It’s been 3 posts so far and ngl the amount of “I’m newbie” and confusion isn’t making me feel very good. Past experience someone played the newbie card and everyone let them slip, except they were mafia. Didn’t end well. [quote name="Lyrelore"] that's actually a very good point that i did not think of when i agreed with seethingLloron about lying about votes - i don't see how it'd be more beneficial to lie about a vote than to just not say who you're voting for[b]... or maybe i do. [/b] <snip> [b]i think it's a complicated topic and i'm not entirely sure where i stand on it myself...[/b] [/quote] It seems like they’re trying very hard to stay neutral, with the bolder parts. It’s a complicated topic in terms of theory, but it shouldnt be that much of a complicated topic to take a stance on. The snipped part are just general, non indicative content. Taking the neutral stance/ being indecisive is one of the things I consider scummy. Let’s see if this sort of behaviour continue. [quote name="lyrelore" date="2022-11-28 20:57:49" ] i suppose i can see how that might be seen as dodging the question but I genuinely don't know how to describe my playstyle - I think, in the last game I played, once the first (irl) day had passed I just started paying close attention to what everyone said and [b]questioning or responding to things as they came up,[/ b] and occasionally doing [b]in-depth reads using all of a certain person's posts. [/b] and that's basically what I'm doing now, so I guess that's my playstyle - and if I was Mafia or 3p I'd probably be playing the same way [/quote] Bolded part: and have you? :) Gonna answer this later after I go through the rest of the posts [quote name="lyrelore" date="2022-11-29 11:27:00" ] going to read through everything but responding to pings first those are all very good points - [u]townies should be playing for the good of the entire town and not just themselves, and who you voted for the night you were killed could very well prove to be valuable information.[/u] i was mainly thinking of a situation in which a player had a very important role that would help a lot with the game - but [b]looking back at the role list, all of the roles (and the abilities that come with them) seem like they could be very helpful and important.[/b] i need to read through what happened while i was a-sleeping but i think i'm slowly turning over to the "lying about votes will never be more beneficial than harmful" side of things [/quote] Underline: waffling. Bolded: another instance that showed that they did read the roles. All roles. And the abilities. A little bit of backtracking on the vote faking thing, although other people did too. Still not an actual stance though, it still sounds like they’re trying to stay neutral. [quote name="lyrelore" date="2022-11-29 11:56:14" ] so i... i totally did not realize we had separate day and night phases. this makes that entire idea of mine moot. thank you for pointing that out to me lmao[/quote] Either they’re genuine townie that didn’t know that, or mafchat has been too happily discussing kills that they didn’t realise this. Also day & night phases are standard mafia setups. The nightless type, like the cahoots game, is rarely run (usually only for newbie/festive mafia). If Lyre flips mafia, I think it’s worth considering that the mafteam may not have much experience outside of nightless games. Although that’s pretty much everyone so :P [quote name="lyrelore" date="2022-11-29 11:56:14" ] but like Storm said, there are a number of reasons why tracking isn't reliable - [b]we have a redirect role in this game [i]and[/i] a visit doesn't always mean a kill - heck, it could be the visitor trying to protect or heal the visited. [/b] also like Storm said - yes, undeniable evidence will probably not be possible, but that doesn't mean we shouldn't eliminate someone on the first day. there are 6 townies, 3 mafia, and 1 third party. if we eliminate no one, that completely removes any chance of a mafia or third party getting eliminated, and there's still a 100% chance a town or 3p will be offed by mafia. if we eliminate someone on day 1 - yes, the chances of eliminating town vs mafia/3p aren't in our favor, but that's not taking into account any discussion we might have that gives us hints as to who might be town/mafia/3p, and even if we do end up eliminating a town it gives us more information to work off of vs if we hadn't eliminated and had only let a town or 3p be offed by mafia. <snip question> [/quote] Bolded: They specifically raised redirection. They know the exact roles that can interfere with night actions. The rest of the paragraph: more waffling They really are talking a lot about general theories this game. (Basically all their posts so far) [quote name="lyrelore" date="2022-11-29 19:22:30" ] this is only my second game of mafia ever, and this game is quite different from the first one i played - all roles are public and voting is private and not done in a public thread. i probably have been waffling around on most of the topics so far because i'm not really familiar with the different rules this game has and i'm trying to figure out how i feel about em. i do apologize if i'm slow on understanding the new stuff or if i just... completely forget certain things... [/quote] Nice self realisation. Also, did they use as much “…” in the mast game? I do understand they are newbie but they are bringing this up an awfully lot. ((I don’t wanna sound harsh to new players!!! I hope you understand part of Iso is also micro analysing everything. Out of game I’m friendly and feel free to ask me about anything, how to play etc)) [quote name="lyrelore" date="2022-11-29 19:22:30" ] just like i did here SOBS - [b]i do admit when i wrote that i wasn't looking at the role list AT ALL[/b] and i was just carrying over logic from my past game - logic which might apply a bit less here because we know all the roles, but i still stand by what i said about eliming on D1 being better than not eliming on D1. [u]i still think it's a very good information-gathering tool, both with the result of the flip itself, the discussion that comes after the flip, as well as discussion that comes [i]before[/i] (i am just now thinking about this) - pinging someone with "i'm voting for you" [/u]can definitely prompt them to give up some more valuable information that you might not have gotten (or might have had to wait longer to get) if you didn't do that. [/quote] Bold: You haven’t read the roles? Although you’ve mentioned reading roles/the roles themselves in 3 other posts? Underline: admitted to waffling then immediately started waffling in the same post [quote name="lyrelore" date="2022-11-30 11:31:42" ] going to read through everything in a minute, hopefully, but first to be completely honest i totally forgot to vote. i was super tired when i peeked at the thread last night and i went straight to bed after replying to BerryBagel [/quote] You admitted to D1 elims being useful, but didn’t even cast a vote? But then if you really just went to bed it’s also acceptable…I guess [quote name="lyrelore" date="2022-11-30 16:03:08" ] i'm hesitant to label tangle as not 3P, because there's always the chance tangle used their 3-shot, which nullifies the passive - <snip waffle on 3p stuff> [b](though ofc i am still hesitant)[/b] <snip> [b]but i'm really not sure what that reason would be... [/b]so i'm going to start looking at Storm a little closer [/quote] Bolded: more uncertainty and “…”. I’m going to meta hunt the previous game later because I don’t recall Lyre being so hesitant and unsure of everything they post [quote name="lyrelore" date="2022-12-01 10:03:03" ] also i'm going to try and be more active starting today - i'm going to check the thread more often and hopefully post more often. i think i'm way better at responding to things as they pop up than i am at reading back through what's happened since my last post and picking things apart so i gotta stay on the ball here [/quote] Am waiting your analysis! : D Although if you’re actually busy it’s ok I NEED TO GO because my friends are waiting I will continue the ISO gimme another hour. If it ain’t obvious by now [b]VOTE: lyrelore[/b] I know it doesn’t look good to drop half of the reason I’m sussing them and then walking off, but bare with me for now.

[quote name="StormDreamer" date="2022-12-02 02:05:48" ] despite my sus of tangle, i'd still like to poke at people sussing tangle with reasoning i'm not entirely sure i can get behind ;o [quote name="@RaccoonusDoodus" date="2022-12-02 01:11:04" ] [b]Tangle[/b] I feel she is the most sus out of anyone. If I remember correctly, she was one of the ones leading most of the conversation D1/N1, and was active when Berry king claimed. Lyre did mention he was certain she is not medic or dungeon master, however, though unlikely, it’s not impossible Tangle may have been role blocked, and just unable to save Berry. But, I am not inclined to believe this as no one has claimed dungeon master and Shimmer claimed medic without being countered. Because of this, I’m [i]leaning scum[/i] [/quote] i don't think i completely understand your logic here--what in particular about these things makes tangle suspicious to you? how does tangle being an active speaker / being active when berry claimed / not being medic or dungeon master point towards tangle being scum? [/quote] In that first sentence, I meant to say “I feel she is [i]not[/i] the most suspicious,” as I feel that would actually be @/lyrelore. I also meant to say I’m [i]leaning town[/i] and not scum. It was 1 am and my brain was fried from work already. And when I say I’m leaning town, I am *barely* leaning town. People do still think she is maf - which is a semi popular opinion - so I’ll still be squinting at her. Her being active in chat like she is though is what makes me think she isn’t scum. She is actively moving conversation forward, while I think scum would try to eliminate someone who is helping find them - another reason I don’t fully believe Storm is as town aligned as she says. ————— Time to start getting ready for work now

I can’t quote right now but that’s some prime textbook example of what backtracking is

Even if it’s possible it’s just a really terrible typo

huh. i'm... not surprised to say that people will backtrack after someone (coughs) pointed out the dog pile. it's as if scum team has come to a conclusion that they have to "stay low" on tangle's bandwagon but it's executed like the meme here. [img]https://media.tenor.com/7MTCMVpGP1oAAAAM/suspicious-dont-be.gif[/img]

good lord guys i went to bed and went to work this morning what
what has happened, ok just gonna go through and see all what happened

[quote name="@StormDreamer" date="2022-12-02 00:52:44" ] catching up on the thread, part 2! [quote name="Hiii" date="2022-12-01 09:54:21" ] notes because i had to revise mine since apparently i can't read (also ill post full thoughts when i get home): i think berry definitely shouldve roleclaimed after d2 start. but whats really interesting to me is that medic/dungeon master did not protect them; and that mafia were awake at the time. [/quote] this is all under the assumption that mafia decided to kill berry [i]after[/i] berry roleclaimed though! berry had a list of people that were on her sus list and was adamant that said people would be mafia in the case she died, so it is entirely possible that mafia already decided to kill berry before berry's claim. to throw suspicion on me (almost completely not mafia!) and lyre i think, like seething mentioned a couple of posts before yours. [/quote] hmm i do think that it is a possibility, just a very small one. i think that mafia would have gone for other people first though, like you or tangle). and i do still think that mafia were targeting someone else, then switched to berry last minute. think about it: maybe they'd leave storm and berry alone to fight each other until an elim and go for someone else to maximize how many town die, but berry's role claim threw a big wrench in their plan. mafia knows how powerful a king is in this game, and since berry correctly guessed storm's plan; what's to say she wouldn't sniff out them as well? maybe im tunneling but i really think that mafia changed their kill in response to berry's roleclaim.

Mafia changing their kill to Berry =/= I was the one who changed the kill

I think that’s one point that people is failing to identify.

Nothing wrong with tunnelling on the fact that mafia changed the kill.
Tunnelling on the fact that someone maybe did the kill when there was no way to figure out who was lurking, is a problem

[quote name="@Tanglefire" date="2022-12-02 01:09:08" ] Now there really aren’t much candidates left for mafia, right? It’s just a pick between ainsell, Hiii, Lyre, Raccoonus We have 3 mafia, best case scenario we have 75% of hitting maf. Wowieee. We can literally go spin a bottle right now for who to vote off among these 4. Since there is a godfather, so the flips will show up as 2 maf 2 town. My personal advice is to just kill off all 4. I would start with Lyre because hey isn’t that our sus from our late King berry? [/quote] okay so this is an incredibly reckless plan and im here for it but i don't think we should go off on a killing spree (also im there so id rather not die lmao) i want to say that you are almost certainly glossing over a mafia member. i don't think we should townread seething quite so early