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TOPIC | [guide] Coli skills + enemy stats
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@Sylvandyr got it, thanks for the reply
@Sylvandyr got it, thanks for the reply
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@Sylvandyr and @Maki

I think I figured out how the turn order works. I wrote it up here if you wanted to take a look. The logs you typed out were very helpful. Thank you.
@Sylvandyr and @Maki

I think I figured out how the turn order works. I wrote it up here if you wanted to take a look. The logs you typed out were very helpful. Thank you.
@Sylvandyr, @Maki

I'm sure there's an answer out there already, but I've currently got about 15 different tabs open trying to figure this out and I think I'm more confused that I was, so I'm giving up and bugging you guys instead!!

So. I converted to a Monk (Meditate) build a while back, and love it. I started with a Ruins version and the relief from the Mire was bliss. A few months later, for whatever reason, I took him into the Mire and it still worked ok, so I played with the stats a bit (119str as a start). Stupid me thought I'll make a duel venue Monk.

Whatever. I've now got a Water Monk I want to use for the Ruins and an Arcane one I'll use for the Mire. Except, long story short, when I went to try and work out the correct stats for each again, I'm coming across a few different answers!! The STR seems pretty consistent, but I can't decide what QCK I'm supposed to use for each venue.

In the Ruins, I'm sure I used to be able to do Meditate-Haste-Rally-Defend (or Rally against all Mages) for every start pack. What is the minimum QCK for that? And what would I need for the same in the Mire... or at least the same for all physical monsters in the Mire?

Points to consider:
- I say I used to be able to get in the 4 turns before every monster in the Ruins, but will concede that maybe it wasn't against the Spectre/Phantoms...
- I've already got 66QCK on my Ruins guy and 64 QCK on the Mire girl, so I'm not gonna re-tincture (again) to go less than that.
- I've seen some talk about applying Meditate twice in the first round, but I honestly don't get it. I've tried it a couple of times and it means that the Haste doesn't give you the extra turn before the monsters turn, so they get an extra chance at you before the Meditate wears off. If you've got comments/thoughts re this, I'd be interested, I just don't get it at the moment (and therefore wouldn't want to make a build that was specifically set up to use this way, if that's different).
- 64QCk in the Mire seems to be popular, but this still doesn't work against those Wascally White Weasels... what would you need for Haste to give you that extra turn before them?
- I've actually gone with Shred rather than Sap as my 4th stone. I came up with this by myself, but have seen some other people have done the same. Not really relevant for the QCK question, just thought I'd mention it

Ok, brain gone into meltdown now, sorry for the essay! Your insights are most appreciated!!
@Sylvandyr, @Maki

I'm sure there's an answer out there already, but I've currently got about 15 different tabs open trying to figure this out and I think I'm more confused that I was, so I'm giving up and bugging you guys instead!!

So. I converted to a Monk (Meditate) build a while back, and love it. I started with a Ruins version and the relief from the Mire was bliss. A few months later, for whatever reason, I took him into the Mire and it still worked ok, so I played with the stats a bit (119str as a start). Stupid me thought I'll make a duel venue Monk.

Whatever. I've now got a Water Monk I want to use for the Ruins and an Arcane one I'll use for the Mire. Except, long story short, when I went to try and work out the correct stats for each again, I'm coming across a few different answers!! The STR seems pretty consistent, but I can't decide what QCK I'm supposed to use for each venue.

In the Ruins, I'm sure I used to be able to do Meditate-Haste-Rally-Defend (or Rally against all Mages) for every start pack. What is the minimum QCK for that? And what would I need for the same in the Mire... or at least the same for all physical monsters in the Mire?

Points to consider:
- I say I used to be able to get in the 4 turns before every monster in the Ruins, but will concede that maybe it wasn't against the Spectre/Phantoms...
- I've already got 66QCK on my Ruins guy and 64 QCK on the Mire girl, so I'm not gonna re-tincture (again) to go less than that.
- I've seen some talk about applying Meditate twice in the first round, but I honestly don't get it. I've tried it a couple of times and it means that the Haste doesn't give you the extra turn before the monsters turn, so they get an extra chance at you before the Meditate wears off. If you've got comments/thoughts re this, I'd be interested, I just don't get it at the moment (and therefore wouldn't want to make a build that was specifically set up to use this way, if that's different).
- 64QCk in the Mire seems to be popular, but this still doesn't work against those Wascally White Weasels... what would you need for Haste to give you that extra turn before them?
- I've actually gone with Shred rather than Sap as my 4th stone. I came up with this by myself, but have seen some other people have done the same. Not really relevant for the QCK question, just thought I'd mention it

Ok, brain gone into meltdown now, sorry for the essay! Your insights are most appreciated!!
Ink wash brush-style art of three red and gold Wildclaws performing a dragon dance with a green Auraboa puppet, with text for Nature's Year of the Wood Dragon push. D9tBovl.png w8o0xW1.png
@Goldia Hi there, I actually have little experience in a Coli 2.0 Mire Meditate dragon outside of running tests. The last time I seriously used Meditate in the Mire was before Berserker stones worked, and it was helpful to have one Meditate and one Scratch dragon (solo trainers were impossible at the time due to lack of stats). 119 STR is right, but I have less comments on exact preferred QCK values. I do have some opinions about Meditate in the Mire, though.

While I love Meditate in the Ruins at this time, I can't say the same for Meditate in the Mire due to the difference in the types of packs and the abundance of annoying status effects in the Mire (contuse, paralysis, blind, freeze, silence). There are multiple extremely fast enemies in the Mire, one of them being a Contuse caster, which cripples Meditate users and forces them to waste Breath (having Shred is best for that scenario). It's possible to use Meditate in the Mire, but I find it suboptimal compared to Scratch with the current Coli parameters.


[EDIT]: I did a more recent comparison in which the Mire Meditate build performed very well; check this post.

There is no need for a separate build when deciding to Meditate twice for breath building. In the Ruins, I - always - Meditate twice on the starting round, and sometimes I Meditate multiple times after a miss (depending on the situation). I double Meditate to build Breath even if I'm only training to level 4. The reason is insurance for misses (or saving precious turns when killing a boss). If you Meditate twice at the beginning, it only costed you a single extra turn. If you don't do it and you miss, now you've wasted a bunch of turns and you probably have to do a reset after you finish off the pack (or without finishing, if you were low on health).

The Salve Kamaitachi in the Mire has 56 QCK. The Psywurm has 62 QCK. They're both way faster than the Aer Phantom and Lux Spectre in the Ruins, who have 50 QCK. Even the Scythe Kamaitachi (your pesky white weasel, which sometimes appears as a group of 3) has 52 QCK, which is also more than the fastest enemies in the Ruins. You'll never get enough QCK with the currently available stats for the tradeoff to be worthwhile for the three faster Mire enemies.

Shred is always much better than Sap on a Meditate trainer. It costs less Breath and does more damage than Scratch, which gives you an option against Contuse. Sap is mainly good on Scratch trainers, who can weave it into their rotation to replace Scratch while they have excess Breath.

Anyway, if you'd still like to use Meditate in the Mire, you'll have to accept that the turn order won't work out exactly the way you want for the Psywurm, Salve Kamaitachi, and Scythe Kamaitachi. For the two Kamaitachis, you just gotta take them out first (and not start on those packs). The Psywurms might still be ok to start on.

Hope this helps! :)
@Goldia Hi there, I actually have little experience in a Coli 2.0 Mire Meditate dragon outside of running tests. The last time I seriously used Meditate in the Mire was before Berserker stones worked, and it was helpful to have one Meditate and one Scratch dragon (solo trainers were impossible at the time due to lack of stats). 119 STR is right, but I have less comments on exact preferred QCK values. I do have some opinions about Meditate in the Mire, though.

While I love Meditate in the Ruins at this time, I can't say the same for Meditate in the Mire due to the difference in the types of packs and the abundance of annoying status effects in the Mire (contuse, paralysis, blind, freeze, silence). There are multiple extremely fast enemies in the Mire, one of them being a Contuse caster, which cripples Meditate users and forces them to waste Breath (having Shred is best for that scenario). It's possible to use Meditate in the Mire, but I find it suboptimal compared to Scratch with the current Coli parameters.


[EDIT]: I did a more recent comparison in which the Mire Meditate build performed very well; check this post.

There is no need for a separate build when deciding to Meditate twice for breath building. In the Ruins, I - always - Meditate twice on the starting round, and sometimes I Meditate multiple times after a miss (depending on the situation). I double Meditate to build Breath even if I'm only training to level 4. The reason is insurance for misses (or saving precious turns when killing a boss). If you Meditate twice at the beginning, it only costed you a single extra turn. If you don't do it and you miss, now you've wasted a bunch of turns and you probably have to do a reset after you finish off the pack (or without finishing, if you were low on health).

The Salve Kamaitachi in the Mire has 56 QCK. The Psywurm has 62 QCK. They're both way faster than the Aer Phantom and Lux Spectre in the Ruins, who have 50 QCK. Even the Scythe Kamaitachi (your pesky white weasel, which sometimes appears as a group of 3) has 52 QCK, which is also more than the fastest enemies in the Ruins. You'll never get enough QCK with the currently available stats for the tradeoff to be worthwhile for the three faster Mire enemies.

Shred is always much better than Sap on a Meditate trainer. It costs less Breath and does more damage than Scratch, which gives you an option against Contuse. Sap is mainly good on Scratch trainers, who can weave it into their rotation to replace Scratch while they have excess Breath.

Anyway, if you'd still like to use Meditate in the Mire, you'll have to accept that the turn order won't work out exactly the way you want for the Psywurm, Salve Kamaitachi, and Scythe Kamaitachi. For the two Kamaitachis, you just gotta take them out first (and not start on those packs). The Psywurms might still be ok to start on.

Hope this helps! :)
Bonsai pixels (tofu and tea motif) by miirshroom
@sylvandyr - wow, thanks for such a prompt and thorough reply (even if it wasn't quite the news I was hoping for ;) )!!

Maybe I should have left the Arcane lady with Scratch, but I already have a Scratch Flyer, and I have the stones, so it's ok. At least now I know to leave it at the 64Q and that I just have to deal with those 3 critters differently.

I might go back to the Ruins and play more with the double meditate method, see if I can get it working - it's possible I was doing it in the Mire, and that's why I just didn't get it.

I'm kinda chuffed that my idea of using Shred instead of Sap is actually an approved use of stones, not just me being weird!!

What Q do you have on your Ruins Monk? I'm still seeing guides saying 66, 70 or 75 for this!!
@sylvandyr - wow, thanks for such a prompt and thorough reply (even if it wasn't quite the news I was hoping for ;) )!!

Maybe I should have left the Arcane lady with Scratch, but I already have a Scratch Flyer, and I have the stones, so it's ok. At least now I know to leave it at the 64Q and that I just have to deal with those 3 critters differently.

I might go back to the Ruins and play more with the double meditate method, see if I can get it working - it's possible I was doing it in the Mire, and that's why I just didn't get it.

I'm kinda chuffed that my idea of using Shred instead of Sap is actually an approved use of stones, not just me being weird!!

What Q do you have on your Ruins Monk? I'm still seeing guides saying 66, 70 or 75 for this!!
Ink wash brush-style art of three red and gold Wildclaws performing a dragon dance with a green Auraboa puppet, with text for Nature's Year of the Wood Dragon push. D9tBovl.png w8o0xW1.png
@Goldia I use this girl with 65 QCK!

There are a lot of different options for QCK, and it depends on how your turn order preference is. I personally find the higher QCK levels excessive after Coli 2.0 fixed the first turn bug.

I wrote a post about different QCK choices here if you'd like to check it out! Please be warned that my focus is only on how many turns overall it takes to complete the first battle on such-and-such pack; I don't care what the first few turns look like. (Initial turn order matters most for Anticipate, which I've stopped using after 2.0 due to disruptive turn order changes in my personal opinion.)
@Goldia I use this girl with 65 QCK!

There are a lot of different options for QCK, and it depends on how your turn order preference is. I personally find the higher QCK levels excessive after Coli 2.0 fixed the first turn bug.

I wrote a post about different QCK choices here if you'd like to check it out! Please be warned that my focus is only on how many turns overall it takes to complete the first battle on such-and-such pack; I don't care what the first few turns look like. (Initial turn order matters most for Anticipate, which I've stopped using after 2.0 due to disruptive turn order changes in my personal opinion.)
Bonsai pixels (tofu and tea motif) by miirshroom
@Sylvandyr - again, thank you!! It's great that I can leave the Quick low, and put more into Vitality, gotta love Monks and fixed bugs!! Bless you for being awesome and sharing your knowledge! :)

I confess that I've also barely used my Anticitank after getting the Monk build, it's just comparatively counter intuitive!
@Sylvandyr - again, thank you!! It's great that I can leave the Quick low, and put more into Vitality, gotta love Monks and fixed bugs!! Bless you for being awesome and sharing your knowledge! :)

I confess that I've also barely used my Anticitank after getting the Monk build, it's just comparatively counter intuitive!
Ink wash brush-style art of three red and gold Wildclaws performing a dragon dance with a green Auraboa puppet, with text for Nature's Year of the Wood Dragon push. D9tBovl.png w8o0xW1.png
@Goldia Glad to help, hope you find a configuration that you like! :)

I used to really like Anticipate for training level 4s in 1.0, but after 2.0, the turn order was so jumbled (and Anticipate breath building is SO dependent on turn order) that I gave up on it. The fixed first turn also buffed Meditate and Scratch in comparison.
@Goldia Glad to help, hope you find a configuration that you like! :)

I used to really like Anticipate for training level 4s in 1.0, but after 2.0, the turn order was so jumbled (and Anticipate breath building is SO dependent on turn order) that I gave up on it. The fixed first turn also buffed Meditate and Scratch in comparison.
Bonsai pixels (tofu and tea motif) by miirshroom
Hi all, there's a new Boreal Wood update.

Unfortunately, this entire week and weekend, I'll be very busy and oftentimes unresponsive due to work. I apologize in advance for delays to the updates to the tool.

I'll be making a ping for help in the data collection thread.

Thanks!
Hi all, there's a new Boreal Wood update.

Unfortunately, this entire week and weekend, I'll be very busy and oftentimes unresponsive due to work. I apologize in advance for delays to the updates to the tool.

I'll be making a ping for help in the data collection thread.

Thanks!
Bonsai pixels (tofu and tea motif) by miirshroom
@Foxofwonders @Serpenthyne @Valmue @Maki @MunchkinLynx

Hi everyone, the tool has been updated with data for the new enemies in Boreal Wood. :)

(Thanks to Maki and Lililira for helping with the data this round!)
@Foxofwonders @Serpenthyne @Valmue @Maki @MunchkinLynx

Hi everyone, the tool has been updated with data for the new enemies in Boreal Wood. :)

(Thanks to Maki and Lililira for helping with the data this round!)
Bonsai pixels (tofu and tea motif) by miirshroom
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