[quote name="Impersonal" date="2024-04-18 01:49:19" ]
[quote name="Silverstormwing" date="2024-04-17 23:01:29" ]
[quote name="DarkVixen" date="2024-04-17 20:46:22" ]
Also, adding on, maybe try to make their mold-breaking more obvious if possible. I didn't realize Aether had 6 legs for a tiny bit and Veilspun having 4 wings for a long while.
[/quote]
…Aethers have six legs?
[/quote]
[i]...Veils have four wings?[/i]
[/quote]
[img]https://i.imgur.com/N7j4S0C.png[/img]
[img]https://i.imgur.com/mhvXCYq.png[/img]
[img]https://i.imgur.com/FQrDbFQ.png[/img]
Added a 2nd Veilspun photo for comparison as the wing 'arms' as I will call it are way too small. Could be up for debate though as maybe insect experts could define it as 2 or 4.
Impersonal wrote on 2024-04-18 01:49:19:
Silverstormwing wrote on 2024-04-17 23:01:29:
DarkVixen wrote on 2024-04-17 20:46:22:
Also, adding on, maybe try to make their mold-breaking more obvious if possible. I didn't realize Aether had 6 legs for a tiny bit and Veilspun having 4 wings for a long while.
…Aethers have six legs?
...Veils have four wings?
Added a 2nd Veilspun photo for comparison as the wing 'arms' as I will call it are way too small. Could be up for debate though as maybe insect experts could define it as 2 or 4.
less conventional anatomy on ancients is not even nearly as common as people seem
to think. last time we had an ancient with 4 legs, 2 wings, one head and one tail was when gaolers were released. ones with modern-like anatomy are rare.
that being said, i do not really think we should go too extreme with the ancients. it would be really easy to make the dragon have extremely limited use and extremely niche appeal with too outlandish appearance, i think they still should have at least some appeal and use outside of very narrow niches, and still read clearly as dragons.
imo for now better approach is to invest the wildest concepts into terts, allowing much more freedom in the dragon design, and giving users the choice for what they prefer. like for example that gene that gives auraboas centipede legs. if it was part of the base design, the breed would be instantly much more niche.
but for future, i think if ancients were to get wilder desings, i think that should be reserved for the second round of ancient dragons, rather than the first ones.
less conventional anatomy on ancients is not even nearly as common as people seem
to think. last time we had an ancient with 4 legs, 2 wings, one head and one tail was when gaolers were released. ones with modern-like anatomy are rare.
that being said, i do not really think we should go too extreme with the ancients. it would be really easy to make the dragon have extremely limited use and extremely niche appeal with too outlandish appearance, i think they still should have at least some appeal and use outside of very narrow niches, and still read clearly as dragons.
imo for now better approach is to invest the wildest concepts into terts, allowing much more freedom in the dragon design, and giving users the choice for what they prefer. like for example that gene that gives auraboas centipede legs. if it was part of the base design, the breed would be instantly much more niche.
but for future, i think if ancients were to get wilder desings, i think that should be reserved for the second round of ancient dragons, rather than the first ones.
Ledi | finland | 10+ fr time | adult | artist & game dev
[quote name="DarkVixen" date="2024-04-19 02:32:03" ]
[quote name="Impersonal" date="2024-04-18 01:49:19" ]
[quote name="Silverstormwing" date="2024-04-17 23:01:29" ]
[quote name="DarkVixen" date="2024-04-17 20:46:22" ]
Also, adding on, maybe try to make their mold-breaking more obvious if possible. I didn't realize Aether had 6 legs for a tiny bit and Veilspun having 4 wings for a long while.
[/quote]
…Aethers have six legs?
[/quote]
[i]...Veils have four wings?[/i]
[/quote]
[img]https://i.imgur.com/N7j4S0C.png[/img]
[img]https://i.imgur.com/mhvXCYq.png[/img]
[img]https://i.imgur.com/FQrDbFQ.png[/img]
Added a 2nd Veilspun photo for comparison as the wing 'arms' as I will call it are way too small. Could be up for debate though as maybe insect experts could define it as 2 or 4.
[/quote]
Aethers also have 4 wings! Bees and moths which these wings are based off of all have 4 wings. Each part is considered a separate wing, even if they are positioned close together.
Actually just about all flying insects have 4 wings, there are only a few that have two, and most of those actually started out with four wings but one of the pair got modified into something else other than a flying wing (ie. beetles and flies). So [i]technically[/i] when you add beetle tert to Veils, you are actually giving them another pair of modified wings ;)
But yes Veils and Aethers both have 4 wings, and Aethers do indeed have 6 legs!
DarkVixen wrote on 2024-04-19 02:32:03:
Impersonal wrote on 2024-04-18 01:49:19:
Silverstormwing wrote on 2024-04-17 23:01:29:
DarkVixen wrote on 2024-04-17 20:46:22:
Also, adding on, maybe try to make their mold-breaking more obvious if possible. I didn't realize Aether had 6 legs for a tiny bit and Veilspun having 4 wings for a long while.
…Aethers have six legs?
...Veils have four wings?
Added a 2nd Veilspun photo for comparison as the wing 'arms' as I will call it are way too small. Could be up for debate though as maybe insect experts could define it as 2 or 4.
Aethers also have 4 wings! Bees and moths which these wings are based off of all have 4 wings. Each part is considered a separate wing, even if they are positioned close together.
Actually just about all flying insects have 4 wings, there are only a few that have two, and most of those actually started out with four wings but one of the pair got modified into something else other than a flying wing (ie. beetles and flies). So
technically when you add beetle tert to Veils, you are actually giving them another pair of modified wings ;)
But yes Veils and Aethers both have 4 wings, and Aethers do indeed have 6 legs!
Sure maybe it’s only a PERK and not the whole purpose that Ancients can have mold-breaking body plans, but that doesn’t mean people like me don’t feel kinda bummed when they don’t. It’s still what I want with Ancients even if it’s not what was PROMISED
I’m feeling pretty “why not?” about mold-breaking designs, like if we have the OPTION for more unique breeds, why isn’t it being taken very often? I kind of think there’s enough normal-body-plan dragons for the people who prefer them, at least while the people who want to see more unique things are still waiting. And, to be sure, I’ve never seen anyone say they actually PREFER the basic body plan, other than for the purpose of the dragon being classified as Modern and able to wear apparel. I think in general people like variety - even if one PREFERS the normal plan, that doesn’t mean they wouldn’t enjoy a different one. I PREFER eating ice cream to eating salad, but after enough ice cream I’ll still reach for something green
Sure maybe it’s only a PERK and not the whole purpose that Ancients can have mold-breaking body plans, but that doesn’t mean people like me don’t feel kinda bummed when they don’t. It’s still what I want with Ancients even if it’s not what was PROMISED
I’m feeling pretty “why not?” about mold-breaking designs, like if we have the OPTION for more unique breeds, why isn’t it being taken very often? I kind of think there’s enough normal-body-plan dragons for the people who prefer them, at least while the people who want to see more unique things are still waiting. And, to be sure, I’ve never seen anyone say they actually PREFER the basic body plan, other than for the purpose of the dragon being classified as Modern and able to wear apparel. I think in general people like variety - even if one PREFERS the normal plan, that doesn’t mean they wouldn’t enjoy a different one. I PREFER eating ice cream to eating salad, but after enough ice cream I’ll still reach for something green
[quote name="Almedha" date="2024-04-18 12:24:35" ]
[quote name="NatsuWolf" date="2024-04-18 09:03:23" ]
Like someone else pointed out, all the ancients we've had up to this point do break the mold though? Granted some are subtler than others but they all do.
Gaolers have tiny vestigial wings that are basically an extra pair of arms
Veilspuns have four wings (on the males and hatchies) and their crazy hair
Banescales have no arms
Undertides have no arms or legs
Aethers have six arms/legs and four wings
Auraboas have no legs and four wings, technically six if you count the arm wings
Abbys have two heads and two tails
Sandsurge have no wings
Dusthides are the first one we've gotten that actually 100% follows the modern template with no variation. I understand wanting more extreme divergences from the modern template but to say ancients haven't been breaking the mold is just not true.
[/quote]
Alright. I feel like. Half of these points on the side of "breaking the mold" (most egregiously, the Gaolers) are talking about something completely different than what I think most people are complaining about in "the mold." (Probably conflated with [url=https://www1.flightrising.com/forums/frd/3329820]this concurrent thread[/url], which is talking about the body [i]shapes[/i], not the body [i]template[/i].)
This is the mold: The “[url=https://www1.flightrising.com/forums/ann/2666061#post_2666061]one head, four legs, two wings, one tail[/url]” template that Moderns follow [i]because[/i] they "need to wear apparel."
[List][*]Gaolers do not break the mold. At all. They have six limbs, four of which are legs/arms and two of which are wings. Their design requires no modification to be able to wear all apparel types.
[*]Veilspuns may technically have four wings (I disagree), but they are drawn as if they are two. Manes are not limbs, so I don't know why you'd bring it up. The point is that Veilspuns would require no modification to their body design (including their manes) to be considered Modern.
[*]Sandsurges have features that pass for wings in the Rule - whether they technically have wing bones or whatever doesn't matter. Whether wing apparel could have been modified (as much as on any breed) and not [i]removed entirely[/i] to accommodate it is what matters.
[*]And speaking of subtlety, Aethers have six legs, but some people still aren't aware of this. Like Veilspuns, they have two wings. Nobody would argue that Coatls have an Ancient body type because they have four wings, even though they do. Because [i]it's about apparel[/i]. And since it's about apparel, the males are practically Modern. So I guess they attribute half credit for the "is it Modern" rule.
[*]And, of course, the Dusthides, which would require no modification at all to be able to accommodate all apparel types.[/list]
The question I think most people seem to have is not whether these dragons are Ancients, because there is no Rule confining them. The question is whether they are Moderns: following the rules that would allow them to wear apparel (and therefore contribute to the "backlog," the reason Moderns cannot be released quickly). Four out of nine have a Modern body type.
I don't think it's beyond reason to ask that Ancients be given their own Rule that wouldn't result in a dragon that could be mistaken for a Modern because it follows all the rules, like Gaolers do.
[/quote]
These are my thoughts too-- The "mold" is about apparel, and most of the ancients could easily be moderns. It's only [i]really[/i] the tertiaries of these dragons that truly conflict with apparel, but the base dragon design itself does not.
Personally, I'm of the opinion that if they're going to be releasing two ancients a year from now on, that they [b]should really be pushing the mold more[/b]. Genuinely, what is the point in [b]not [/b]making niche, unique dragons if there are going to be so many? What's the point in making all of these dragons have mass appeal but be fairly standard across board? There are always going to be people who like them and who don't. But frankly, as someone who's enjoyed most of the designs, I ultimately have very few ancients due to their downsides and lack of uniqueness. At the end of the day I would just rather go back to my modern faves because I can [i]make [/i]them more interesting with skins or apparel.
Likewise, there are going to be people who don't want to engage with ancients at all because of those downsides, but perhaps if these niches were delved into more deeply, you'd get more people who aren't normally interested, interested. And honestly, though I understand and respect the original idea behind ancients, and was originally 100% in support of it, I do wonder if the release of so many is going to eventually devalue the work done on apparel, and the focus on the dressing aspect of the site. I mean, eventually we're going to get to the point where half or more of the dragons on the site are incapable of engaging with a very basic gameplay mechanic that takes up much of the site focus for many... And a lot of work for the devs. It really does seem to me like one of the better ideas to alleviate this is to make more unique-looking ancients that are [b]truly [/b]incompatable with apparel.
And if the issue is just in having a steady clip of interesting releases throughout the year-- Why not focus some more on apparel recolors and gene expansions? Honestly, I think the distribution of more line-breaking genes to existing ancients would also be a good idea for the same reason.
But yeah. I say this as someone who was very, very excited and into the idea of ancient dragons from the start, and who's enjoyed most of the releases. It's only when Aethers came out that I began to get kind of disillusioned... And I like them quite a bit. But I just feel there's so much more you can do, and though Dusthides are cute, they are a major disappointment.
Almedha wrote on 2024-04-18 12:24:35:
NatsuWolf wrote on 2024-04-18 09:03:23:
Like someone else pointed out, all the ancients we've had up to this point do break the mold though? Granted some are subtler than others but they all do.
Gaolers have tiny vestigial wings that are basically an extra pair of arms
Veilspuns have four wings (on the males and hatchies) and their crazy hair
Banescales have no arms
Undertides have no arms or legs
Aethers have six arms/legs and four wings
Auraboas have no legs and four wings, technically six if you count the arm wings
Abbys have two heads and two tails
Sandsurge have no wings
Dusthides are the first one we've gotten that actually 100% follows the modern template with no variation. I understand wanting more extreme divergences from the modern template but to say ancients haven't been breaking the mold is just not true.
Alright. I feel like. Half of these points on the side of "breaking the mold" (most egregiously, the Gaolers) are talking about something completely different than what I think most people are complaining about in "the mold." (Probably conflated with
this concurrent thread, which is talking about the body
shapes, not the body
template.)
This is the mold: The “
one head, four legs, two wings, one tail” template that Moderns follow
because they "need to wear apparel."
- Gaolers do not break the mold. At all. They have six limbs, four of which are legs/arms and two of which are wings. Their design requires no modification to be able to wear all apparel types.
- Veilspuns may technically have four wings (I disagree), but they are drawn as if they are two. Manes are not limbs, so I don't know why you'd bring it up. The point is that Veilspuns would require no modification to their body design (including their manes) to be considered Modern.
- Sandsurges have features that pass for wings in the Rule - whether they technically have wing bones or whatever doesn't matter. Whether wing apparel could have been modified (as much as on any breed) and not removed entirely to accommodate it is what matters.
- And speaking of subtlety, Aethers have six legs, but some people still aren't aware of this. Like Veilspuns, they have two wings. Nobody would argue that Coatls have an Ancient body type because they have four wings, even though they do. Because it's about apparel. And since it's about apparel, the males are practically Modern. So I guess they attribute half credit for the "is it Modern" rule.
- And, of course, the Dusthides, which would require no modification at all to be able to accommodate all apparel types.
The question I think most people seem to have is not whether these dragons are Ancients, because there is no Rule confining them. The question is whether they are Moderns: following the rules that would allow them to wear apparel (and therefore contribute to the "backlog," the reason Moderns cannot be released quickly). Four out of nine have a Modern body type.
I don't think it's beyond reason to ask that Ancients be given their own Rule that wouldn't result in a dragon that could be mistaken for a Modern because it follows all the rules, like Gaolers do.
These are my thoughts too-- The "mold" is about apparel, and most of the ancients could easily be moderns. It's only
really the tertiaries of these dragons that truly conflict with apparel, but the base dragon design itself does not.
Personally, I'm of the opinion that if they're going to be releasing two ancients a year from now on, that they
should really be pushing the mold more. Genuinely, what is the point in
not making niche, unique dragons if there are going to be so many? What's the point in making all of these dragons have mass appeal but be fairly standard across board? There are always going to be people who like them and who don't. But frankly, as someone who's enjoyed most of the designs, I ultimately have very few ancients due to their downsides and lack of uniqueness. At the end of the day I would just rather go back to my modern faves because I can
make them more interesting with skins or apparel.
Likewise, there are going to be people who don't want to engage with ancients at all because of those downsides, but perhaps if these niches were delved into more deeply, you'd get more people who aren't normally interested, interested. And honestly, though I understand and respect the original idea behind ancients, and was originally 100% in support of it, I do wonder if the release of so many is going to eventually devalue the work done on apparel, and the focus on the dressing aspect of the site. I mean, eventually we're going to get to the point where half or more of the dragons on the site are incapable of engaging with a very basic gameplay mechanic that takes up much of the site focus for many... And a lot of work for the devs. It really does seem to me like one of the better ideas to alleviate this is to make more unique-looking ancients that are
truly incompatable with apparel.
And if the issue is just in having a steady clip of interesting releases throughout the year-- Why not focus some more on apparel recolors and gene expansions? Honestly, I think the distribution of more line-breaking genes to existing ancients would also be a good idea for the same reason.
But yeah. I say this as someone who was very, very excited and into the idea of ancient dragons from the start, and who's enjoyed most of the releases. It's only when Aethers came out that I began to get kind of disillusioned... And I like them quite a bit. But I just feel there's so much more you can do, and though Dusthides are cute, they are a major disappointment.
i believe that you believe there is a heaven
where you belong.
he/him
Support.
I do wanna say that I really appreciate the work put into each dragon (and gene) so far! The art is beautiful and you can see that thought and effort went into them, even if they turn out to not be liked by a lot of people.
In the end, they're additions to the game, not necessities. Tho I do agree that Ancient releases should be slowed down, many people are burned out on them and less crunch to get the designs done is always a plus!
Anyway, I feel the disappointment on this topic myself, but I don't want to linger on it. My wish for more unique dragons has existed ever since Ancients released and that wish stands to this day.
I have seen some incredibly creative dragon designs in this community and I hope future Ancients get some more unique features. It does feel like the devs are playing it safe with the modern template as mentioned in this thread already.
As an artist myself, that is frankly not something I can empathize with, I really don't want to sound rude, but there will always be people unhappy with any creation you put out. It's important to stay creative, be bold and expand your repertoire.
In the end, having a wide arrange of very different dragons instead of ones all following the same mold, more people will be satisfied.
There's something there for everyone after all!
But I'm not here to criticize artistic intent. I love the art of Flight Rising all the same, I just wanted to voice my wish that things maybe get expanded a little more in the future!
At the end of the day, I love this game, no matter which direction the devs want to take ^^
Support.
I do wanna say that I really appreciate the work put into each dragon (and gene) so far! The art is beautiful and you can see that thought and effort went into them, even if they turn out to not be liked by a lot of people.
In the end, they're additions to the game, not necessities. Tho I do agree that Ancient releases should be slowed down, many people are burned out on them and less crunch to get the designs done is always a plus!
Anyway, I feel the disappointment on this topic myself, but I don't want to linger on it. My wish for more unique dragons has existed ever since Ancients released and that wish stands to this day.
I have seen some incredibly creative dragon designs in this community and I hope future Ancients get some more unique features. It does feel like the devs are playing it safe with the modern template as mentioned in this thread already.
As an artist myself, that is frankly not something I can empathize with, I really don't want to sound rude, but there will always be people unhappy with any creation you put out. It's important to stay creative, be bold and expand your repertoire.
In the end, having a wide arrange of very different dragons instead of ones all following the same mold, more people will be satisfied.
There's something there for everyone after all!
But I'm not here to criticize artistic intent. I love the art of Flight Rising all the same, I just wanted to voice my wish that things maybe get expanded a little more in the future!
At the end of the day, I love this game, no matter which direction the devs want to take ^^
at this point i would genuinely prefer a 5+ year wait for a modern breed than another obviously rushed ancient.
at this point i would genuinely prefer a 5+ year wait for a modern breed than another obviously rushed ancient.
[quote name="Ralzakark" date="2024-04-19 05:06:25" ]
less conventional anatomy on ancients is not even nearly as common as people seem
to think. last time we had an ancient with 4 legs, 2 wings, one head and one tail was when gaolers were released. ones with modern-like anatomy are rare.
that being said, i do not really think we should go too extreme with the ancients. it would be really easy to make the dragon have extremely limited use and extremely niche appeal with too outlandish appearance, i think they still should have at least some appeal and use outside of very narrow niches, and still read clearly as dragons.
imo for now better approach is to invest the wildest concepts into terts, allowing much more freedom in the dragon design, and giving users the choice for what they prefer. like for example that gene that gives auraboas centipede legs. if it was part of the base design, the breed would be instantly much more niche.
but for future, i think if ancients were to get wilder desings, i think that should be reserved for the second round of ancient dragons, rather than the first ones.
[/quote]
Absolutely this. I ADORE the dusthides, they’re my favorite ancient breed and they absolutely read as ancients to me. What I want to see is more insane terts across the board, which is something that players can opt into, rather than a dragon that’s so niche that very few players would enjoy it. I’m not saying that every dragon has to be for everyone, or that the ancient designs shouldn’t get weird, but if you want to push the extremes of that weirdness it should be done via the terts.
Ralzakark wrote on 2024-04-19 05:06:25:
less conventional anatomy on ancients is not even nearly as common as people seem
to think. last time we had an ancient with 4 legs, 2 wings, one head and one tail was when gaolers were released. ones with modern-like anatomy are rare.
that being said, i do not really think we should go too extreme with the ancients. it would be really easy to make the dragon have extremely limited use and extremely niche appeal with too outlandish appearance, i think they still should have at least some appeal and use outside of very narrow niches, and still read clearly as dragons.
imo for now better approach is to invest the wildest concepts into terts, allowing much more freedom in the dragon design, and giving users the choice for what they prefer. like for example that gene that gives auraboas centipede legs. if it was part of the base design, the breed would be instantly much more niche.
but for future, i think if ancients were to get wilder desings, i think that should be reserved for the second round of ancient dragons, rather than the first ones.
Absolutely this. I ADORE the dusthides, they’re my favorite ancient breed and they absolutely read as ancients to me. What I want to see is more insane terts across the board, which is something that players can opt into, rather than a dragon that’s so niche that very few players would enjoy it. I’m not saying that every dragon has to be for everyone, or that the ancient designs shouldn’t get weird, but if you want to push the extremes of that weirdness it should be done via the terts.
Support! Really was disappointed with Dusthides having wings and form that more looks like modern
Support! Really was disappointed with Dusthides having wings and form that more looks like modern
[quote name="Unrest" date="2024-04-21 06:25:17" ]
Absolutely this. I ADORE the dusthides, they’re my favorite ancient breed and [b]they absolutely read as ancients to me[/b].
[/quote]
What does this mean? This is a genuine question - because it implies there is a certain feature or vibe that marks a dragon as being Ancient, and really seriously don't know what that is. I guess, in other words, what is an Ancient?
A Dusthide is objectively a Modern-template dragon. It follows the rule that all Modern dragons have to follow. It doesn't "read as" Ancient to me because this is what a Modern looks like.
Unrest wrote on 2024-04-21 06:25:17:
Absolutely this. I ADORE the dusthides, they’re my favorite ancient breed and they absolutely read as ancients to me.
What does this mean? This is a genuine question - because it implies there is a certain feature or vibe that marks a dragon as being Ancient, and really seriously don't know what that is. I guess, in other words, what is an Ancient?
A Dusthide is objectively a Modern-template dragon. It follows the rule that all Modern dragons have to follow. It doesn't "read as" Ancient to me because this is what a Modern looks like.
