Flight Rising Discussion

[quote name="Undel" date="2022-08-10 22:58:38" ] The agility reduction is a band-aid that we could apply now, simply by changing the enemy's stats. The agility fix at a fundamental level (and other coliseum issues) are more involved and will require a rework of the coliseum itself. It's one of those items that requires programming resources, and is a large project for the future. There's a lot of other things that are currently ahead of a coliseum rebalancing. Grand Exchange QOL, clan profile refactor, other legacy refactors, coliseum PVP reintroduction, and a skin queue revamp to name a few. It's something we want to tackle, but there's a lot of juggling and having the refactor complete will make coliseum changes easier to accomplish. So this was a band-aid that we could do immediately for an underlying issue that is something we will need to tackle at some point in the future. [/quote] I super appreciate the clarifications in this thread, because I think the site update was slightly misleading. I think many people thought, based on the side bar post, that dodging would be improved somewhat from a player experience perspective. The post said two things a) that high agility stats were reduced (no mention of how much) and b) eventually agility would be reintroduced. [img]https://imgur.com/sZ3bAUC.png[/img] To me that reads as, agility has been significantly changed and eventually will be back to normal levels once we rework the coli. This lead to much frustration when player experience was basically unchanged. I appreciate the idea of a "band-aid" solution, but that implies that something noticeably changed. I guess my question, why even mention the change if it's essentially negligible to player experience and all it did was get people riled up about dodge rates again? Slightly changing the numbers from 16 to 15 for some enemies doesn't make a noticeable change for users and it brought attention to an already frustrating issue. I'm really excited to see what you guys can do with the coli in the long-term, as there's a lot of potential and I know you guys have many ideas. I just wish it wasn't so frustrating in the mean time.

Yup, being dodged 2-3 times by the same enemy. In a row.
That wasn't an issue before.

[quote name="Septica" date="2022-08-12 23:41:48" ] Yup, being dodged 2-3 times by the same enemy. In a row. That wasn't an issue before. [/quote] I unfortunately have this happen to me all the time as my documentations [url=https://www1.flightrising.com/forums/sug/3068922#post_3068922]here [/url]lol ----- [quote name="Panther202" date="2021-10-24 12:52:41" ] Grinding for the fest and just got dodged by every enemy in a row (4 dodges). How is that not excessive? So frustrating :( [/quote] [quote name="Panther202" date="2021-11-07 14:57:08" ] I'm just popping in again to say that I'm attempting to fodder train in the mire and it's nearly impossible with the amount of times I'm being dodged. I can't ever get enough breath to eliminate and when I finally do it's dodged on the first try and I'm back to square one with half health. Dodge needs to be fixed in some way. [/quote] [quote name="Panther202" date="2021-11-12 13:09:15" ] Sorry, I know I keep adding to this, just trying to put in examples of why dodge needs to be fixed. I started a Mire fight with two wolves. I had full breath. I rallied + eliminated but I was dodged so much that I was only able to get one hit in and my breath was completely dissipated and I was back to square one and these TWO wolves knocked out my entire team. [/quote] [quote name="Panther202" date="2021-12-04 19:53:18" ] I was doing my long drop challenge in bamboo falls and got dodged 4 times in a row. There's no reason for something in such a low level venue against 3 level 25s should be able to do that.. [/quote] [quote name="Panther202" date="2021-11-13 15:26:00" ] Just had another battle where I went in with full breath and was dodged so much that they were able to completely kill my team and completely wipe any breath I had. I got one scratch in. One attack on my side and my entire team was destroyed. This is insane. [/quote] [quote name="Panther202" date="2021-12-19 18:36:06" ] Bringing this back for NotN. Farming in bamboo falls and I'm getting dodged every single battle. More often, it's 3 or 4 times in a row and not just 1 or 2. [/quote] [quote name="Panther202" date="2022-01-18 15:04:40" ] Bumping this thread again. I'm trying to fodder train for the upcoming arcane push and im getting dodged 2-3 times each battle so by the 3rd fight, ive lost any and all breath i managed to save up and taken so much damage i have to restart completely. [/quote] [quote name="Panther202" date="2022-02-02 12:54:51" ] Am I going crazy or did dodge get worse? I'm farming bamboo falls for my long drop challenge and I'm not even slightly exaggerating when I say that I'm being dodged 3 times at least in every. single. battle. [/quote] [quote name="Panther202" date="2022-02-13 16:18:32" ] Ahahahaaaaa grinding in Redrock Cove as part of my challenge (and bless that extra yummy food for the event) and got dodged 4 times in a row by a freaking Igueel Matriarch. If the dodge system is based on levels like some of you say, that shouldn't be happening :/ [/quote] [quote name="Panther202" date="2022-07-20 10:58:25" ] Okay I don't know what's going on, but I have not landed even half of my elims fodder training today. They've been dodged 3 times at least almost every single battle and I'm having to rest after every fight. It's not usually this bad. [/quote]

just remove dodge altogether, until the refactor balances it to be interactive.
anything that removes player agency is unfun and frustrating.

if the player wants to do a thing, and the system tries to stop them, the player needs to have a means of actively influencing the outcome, which relies on their choices, not on RNG. "try again" does not count. the fact that coli revolves around one ability that is completely negated by enemies dodging, and after all these years enemies still dodge, is frankly dissapointing; this should have been addressed long ago.

or simply say that enemies dodging is a second mechanic meant to prevent automation, like the visually-ableist "captcha"... : )

Definitely getting dodged more for me. A back to back elim dodge multiple times on the same enemy (back to back scratch dodge too) is rather annoying to deal with :|

Yes, I'm consistently being dodged 3 times in a row. It's happening so much that I have to limit my time in coli because I get too frustrated. And it has happened upwards of 6 times per battle in general. I've never said "Are you ******* kidding me?" so much in my life. Coli is my primary source of treasure but the frequency of the dodging hasn't helped my anger issues [emoji=veilspun laughing size=2]

Double-checking here that everyone's put together:

Coli was never built to be an autopilot steady slaughter min-max power trip.

That's just the player style that evolved to exploit the flaws in the game mechanics.

The degree that Dodge is personally frustrating for a player, is the degree that player is counting on that autopilot steady slaughter min-max power trip...

... that will be going away as a viable playing style as soon as Coli gets revamped enough to fix major underlying flaws such as the Agility problem.

Just thinking we may want to beware what we are wishing for, here.

[quote name="Aquafilia" date="2022-08-13 04:51:58" ] Double-checking here that everyone's put together: Coli was never built to be an autopilot steady slaughter min-max power trip. That's just the player style that evolved to exploit the flaws in the game mechanics. The degree that Dodge is personally frustrating for a player, is the degree that player is counting on that autopilot steady slaughter min-max power trip... ... that will be going away as a viable playing style as soon as Coli gets revamped enough to fix major underlying flaws such as the Agility problem. Just thinking we may want to beware what we are wishing for, here. [/quote] i respectfully disagree. a turn-based combat minigame within a larger website game will never be sufficiently engaging & fun to justify fighting against making it "an autopilot steady slaughter min-max power trip". in order to respect the player engaging in any site activity, their experience should match their expectations. i do not go into the coliseum expecting to play a robust turn-based combat game. i go into the coliseum expecting to gain wealth within the larger system of the dragon pet site, by engaging with a mini-game. if flight rising was to pursue creating an engaging coliseum experience by turning it into a robust turn-based combat game, they would need to invest a significant amount of developer resources in order to create a well-balanced, fun experience. given that the coliseum is merely one of many activities within the site, this does not seem like a justified or necessary investment. not to mention, [b]any game[/b], be it turn-based (and especially turn-based, in fact) or otherwise, [b]will inevitably have an optimized, min-max strategy, a most efficient tactic[/b] which creates the best ratio between player investment and system return. whether that "exploits the flaws in game mechanics" or not, is irrelevant. flaws will always be expoilted, if they can make a tactic more efficient; it is simply how people work when engaging with videogames that demand their time and attention, because people value their time and attention, and the game should respect that.. even if they were to invest into creating an experience that is actively hostile towards autopilot strategies, all it would accomplish is creating player frustration. because [b]the majority of people who use the coliseum frequently will apply a most efficient tactic[/b] (everybody values their time, thus wants to be efficient); and in time, will inevitably be able to execute that tactic [b]on autopilot[/b] through repetiton. expecting the coliseum to be more than a maximally efficient autopilot steady slaughter minigame, in my opinion, conflicts with the scope of this site activity. however, in order to offer a broader and richer experience, [b]i believe the best thing that the flight rising staff can do for the coliseum revamp would be to incentivize broader playstyles not by taking away power from min-maxed autopilot tactics, but by offering greater rewards to more difficult playstyles[/b]. i.e. if you want to play on autopilot, go level fodder in the mire. if you want to be engaged, take a fully leveled team to the highest level venue, and apply engaging tactics, thereby obtaining greater wealth through better loot, at the cost of needing to engage more meaningfully with the system. [i]TL;DR:[/i] autopilot slaughter fest is good. keep that, make it minimally frustrating. however, offer alternative for greater rewards for players who can and choose to engage in more complex manners. [b]playstyle diversity is good, minimal frustration is good, let people be efficient if they want to be[/b], and give them rewards for being smart and skiller if they want to be. in closing, an anectodal experience to highlight [b]the importance of accessibility through playstyle diversity[/b]: personally, [b]i frequently engage with the coliseum[/b], exclusively to level fodder in the mire, [b]because i can do this while i'm doing something else[/b]- such as watching a video. i do have to check the coliseum screen periodically, due to captchas and dodges. i understand the need for the former, and the latter frustrates me. my experience could be made better by removing dodge from enemies (whether i'd have to change my builds or not, i'd sacrifice speed for consistency). regardless, [b]this is the only way i engage with this site activity[/b]. [b]if a future coliseum change would make it so that i cannot engage with it in this manner[/b], such as requiring me to always look at the coliseum, and think about what i'm doing, i would simply stop engaging with this site activity. in doing so, [b]i would engage with the site less in general[/b]. no longer buying, training and exalting fodder; this leading to having less wealth, as well as less opportunity for organically finding dragons to collect; this in turn would lead to having less incentive to invest personal resources, such as time, into the site. the site, as well as [b]any entertainment form that involves players interacting, absolutely NEEDS player to engage[/b] with it as often and as loyally as possible. this is why things such as baldwin exist- it gives you incentive to check the site every half hour. and while you're there, you might as well engage with other parts of the site. [b]it is in flight rising's best interest to offer a pleasant & rewarding experience to as broad a player base as possible, through as many site activities as possible, accomodating a wide variety of playstyles and engagement level choices.[/b]

[quote name="Muttsmutt" date="2022-08-13 11:33:12" ] [quote name="Aquafilia" date="2022-08-13 04:51:58" ] Double-checking here that everyone's put together: Coli was never built to be an autopilot steady slaughter min-max power trip. That's just the player style that evolved to exploit the flaws in the game mechanics. The degree that Dodge is personally frustrating for a player, is the degree that player is counting on that autopilot steady slaughter min-max power trip... ... that will be going away as a viable playing style as soon as Coli gets revamped enough to fix major underlying flaws such as the Agility problem. Just thinking we may want to beware what we are wishing for, here. [/quote] i respectfully disagree. a turn-based combat minigame within a larger website game will never be sufficiently engaging & fun to justify fighting against making it "an autopilot steady slaughter min-max power trip". in order to respect the player engaging in any site activity, their experience should match their expectations. i do not go into the coliseum expecting to play a robust turn-based combat game. i go into the coliseum expecting to gain wealth within the larger system of the dragon pet site, by engaging with a mini-game. if flight rising was to pursue creating an engaging coliseum experience by turning it into a robust turn-based combat game, they would need to invest a significant amount of developer resources in order to create a well-balanced, fun experience. given that the coliseum is merely one of many activities within the site, this does not seem like a justified or necessary investment. not to mention, any game, be it turn-based (and especially turn-based, in fact) or otherwise, will inevitably have an optimized, min-max strategy, a most efficient tactic which creates the best ratio between player investment and system return. whether that "exploits the flaws in game mechanics" or not, is irrelevant. flaws will always be expoilted, if they can make a tactic more efficient; it is simply how people work when engaging with videogames that demand their time and attention, because people value their time and attention, and the game should respect that.. even if they were to invest into creating an experience that is actively hostile towards autopilot strategies, all it would accomplish is creating player frustration. because the majority of people who use the coliseum frequently will apply a most efficient tactic (everybody values their time, thus wants to be efficient); and in time, will inevitably be able to execute that tactic on autopilot through repetiton. expecting the coliseum to be more than a maximally efficient autopilot steady slaughter minigame, in my opinion, conflicts with the scope of this site activity. however, in order to offer a broader and richer experience, [b]i believe the best thing that the flight rising staff can do for the coliseum revamp would be to incentivize broader playstyles not by taking away power from min-maxed autopilot tactics, but by offering greater rewards to more difficult playstyles[/b]. i.e. if you want to play on autopilot, go level fodder in the mire. if you want to be engaged, take a fully leveled team to the highest level venue, and apply engaging tactics, thereby obtaining greater wealth through better loot, at the cost of needing to engage more meaningfully with the system. TL;DR autopilot slaughter fest is good. keep that, make it minimally frustrating. however, offer alternative for greater rewards for players who can and choose to engage in more complex manners. playstyle diversity is good, minimal frustration is good, let people be efficient if they want to be, and give them rewards for being smart and skiller if they want to be. [/quote] Uh oh... *looks at my slowly growing pile of fully statted and stoned dragons who took forever to put together* *sweats* I hope that future updates make it so playstyle diversity is encouraged while the old tactics can still work, otherwise I imagine there's gonna be a lot of hubbub...