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TOPIC | Element Change Button for Nests
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Well, here comes the unpopular opinion. I don't support this idea.

Why? In-game lore states that nests are directly tied to the magic of a particular region (not verbatim, obviously). Being able to switch the element of one or multiple nests "on demand" is inherently contradictory to the lore, which is why I don't support it.

While I think this should be obvious, having both parties put up collateral is most realistic and practical solution at this time.
Well, here comes the unpopular opinion. I don't support this idea.

Why? In-game lore states that nests are directly tied to the magic of a particular region (not verbatim, obviously). Being able to switch the element of one or multiple nests "on demand" is inherently contradictory to the lore, which is why I don't support it.

While I think this should be obvious, having both parties put up collateral is most realistic and practical solution at this time.
@/PalladiumX

Yeah, three hours of sleep didn't help my wording, really, as all I had was "choose the flight where you want to "send" your pair to". lol So the visual change was meant to be symbolic of where your dragons journeyed to.
@/PalladiumX

Yeah, three hours of sleep didn't help my wording, really, as all I had was "choose the flight where you want to "send" your pair to". lol So the visual change was meant to be symbolic of where your dragons journeyed to.
[quote name="PalladiumX" date="2018-12-18 10:14:59" ] Well, here comes the unpopular opinion. I don't suppose this idea. Why? In-game lore states that nests are directly tied to the magic of a particular region (not verbatim, obviously). Being able to switch the element of one or multiple nests "on demand" is inherently contradictory to the lore, which is why I don't support it. While I think this should be obvious, having both parties put up collateral is most realistic and practical solution at this time. [/quote] This is one reason why I like the idea of it being a baldwin one use item. Basically, in lore, you are creating a concentrated magic 'emitter' that will temporarily override the natural magics of the nest. It requires a lot of magical items (battlestones and the like) to create and it can only work for one nest. That is also why I felt that having it be something for 'special' use rather than every day use (or every nest) would be better, and a baldwin could help with that, a long brewing time and a heavy cost in materials would make it so that it wouldn't be used every time someone nested. (however, I understand and respect where you are coming from, just wanted to let you know that I have thought about this particular aspect) The reason I like being able to change a nest as opposed to renting is that renting a nest (if it were supported) means you have to interact with other users, and not everyone is comfortable doing that, or wants to do that, so I vastly prefer, in games, having the ability to do things myself, as opposed to being forced to seek out a 'partner' in order to do something.
PalladiumX wrote on 2018-12-18 10:14:59:
Well, here comes the unpopular opinion. I don't suppose this idea.

Why? In-game lore states that nests are directly tied to the magic of a particular region (not verbatim, obviously). Being able to switch the element of one or multiple nests "on demand" is inherently contradictory to the lore, which is why I don't support it.

While I think this should be obvious, having both parties put up collateral is most realistic and practical solution at this time.
This is one reason why I like the idea of it being a baldwin one use item. Basically, in lore, you are creating a concentrated magic 'emitter' that will temporarily override the natural magics of the nest. It requires a lot of magical items (battlestones and the like) to create and it can only work for one nest.

That is also why I felt that having it be something for 'special' use rather than every day use (or every nest) would be better, and a baldwin could help with that, a long brewing time and a heavy cost in materials would make it so that it wouldn't be used every time someone nested.

(however, I understand and respect where you are coming from, just wanted to let you know that I have thought about this particular aspect)

The reason I like being able to change a nest as opposed to renting is that renting a nest (if it were supported) means you have to interact with other users, and not everyone is comfortable doing that, or wants to do that, so I vastly prefer, in games, having the ability to do things myself, as opposed to being forced to seek out a 'partner' in order to do something.

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[quote name="Jemadar" date="2018-12-18 10:20:48" ] The reason I like being able to change a nest as opposed to renting is that renting a nest (if it were supported) means you have to interact with other users, and not everyone is comfortable doing that, or wants to do that, so I vastly prefer, in games, having the ability to do things myself, as opposed to being forced to seek out a 'partner' in order to do something. [/quote] So much this! I don't mind at all how a nest change is implemented; it's the whole interaction thing I don't like, as not everyone has friends in every flight, and it feels rude to make "friends" just so you can borrow their nest. lol
Jemadar wrote on 2018-12-18 10:20:48:
The reason I like being able to change a nest as opposed to renting is that renting a nest (if it were supported) means you have to interact with other users, and not everyone is comfortable doing that, or wants to do that, so I vastly prefer, in games, having the ability to do things myself, as opposed to being forced to seek out a 'partner' in order to do something.

So much this! I don't mind at all how a nest change is implemented; it's the whole interaction thing I don't like, as not everyone has friends in every flight, and it feels rude to make "friends" just so you can borrow their nest. lol
[quote name="PalladiumX" date="2018-12-18 10:14:59" ] Well, here comes the unpopular opinion. I don't suppose this idea. Why? In-game lore states that nests are directly tied to the magic of a particular region (not verbatim, obviously). Being able to switch the element of one or multiple nests "on demand" is inherently contradictory to the lore, which is why I don't support it. While I think this should be obvious, having both parties put up collateral is most realistic and practical solution at this time. [/quote] Which is why people came up with at least two different lore friendly exolanations: traveling and "overriding" the magical signature of the ground the nest is on for a time until it dissipates. How two dragons traveling to a different clan is different from traveling the same distance to an empty space of ground you'd have to explain to me. Its also more likely to that enemy flights clan to fight or kill the intruding dragons than allowing them to nest in their clans territory. Remember that dragons are at war with each other and not just the beastclan. So the whole "just do colatteral and hope the unsupported transaction goes allright" is further from lore than this suggestion.
PalladiumX wrote on 2018-12-18 10:14:59:
Well, here comes the unpopular opinion. I don't suppose this idea.

Why? In-game lore states that nests are directly tied to the magic of a particular region (not verbatim, obviously). Being able to switch the element of one or multiple nests "on demand" is inherently contradictory to the lore, which is why I don't support it.

While I think this should be obvious, having both parties put up collateral is most realistic and practical solution at this time.


Which is why people came up with at least two different lore friendly exolanations: traveling and "overriding" the magical signature of the ground the nest is on for a time until it dissipates.

How two dragons traveling to a different clan is different from traveling the same distance to an empty space of ground you'd have to explain to me. Its also more likely to that enemy flights clan to fight or kill the intruding dragons than allowing them to nest in their clans territory. Remember that dragons are at war with each other and not just the beastclan.

So the whole "just do colatteral and hope the unsupported transaction goes allright" is further from lore than this suggestion.
@Ekon @Jemadar

It doesn't make much sense that a dragon, despite being very smart, can create a spell/device that can override the power of the eleven deities or the magic of the world itself. IMO, that isn't very lore-friendly at all. Granted, FR's lore is still pretty lean and doesn't have a lot of detail, but a single dragon being able to make or at least possessing the knowledge to make something that fundamentally changes how the in-game world works is a bit too much of a stretch (at least for me). However, I will acknowledge that this may be a difference in interpreting FR's lore.

I know I've said this before, but at its heart, FR is about breeding dragons. Suggesting features that on-demand fixes could be dressed up to be lore-friendly, but it's probably not going to happen. The site's staff has turned down multiple suggestions that can be considered on-demand fixes such as gender change scrolls, element change scrolls and different variations of selective color change scrolls because FR is a pet breeding game. Grabbing a dragon and using a bunch of different scrolls to get exactly what you want does not align with their intentions for how FR is meant to be played. And I agree with the staff.

I don't think we're going to come to an agreement, but that's where I stand.

@/Ekon specifically here

Well, the collateral suggestion isn't necessarily supposed to be a lore friendly solution. It's just a solution. Plain and simple. However, if you want to put a lore spin on it, it can be done. If dragons are used as collateral, then you can say two rival clans are exchanging wards.

Basically, a ward was overglorified hostage in medieval Europe. A noble's child would be held and raised by a rival noble family to ensure good behavior. Game of Thrones features multiple fictional examples, but the author used a lot of historical information in the series.
@Ekon @Jemadar

It doesn't make much sense that a dragon, despite being very smart, can create a spell/device that can override the power of the eleven deities or the magic of the world itself. IMO, that isn't very lore-friendly at all. Granted, FR's lore is still pretty lean and doesn't have a lot of detail, but a single dragon being able to make or at least possessing the knowledge to make something that fundamentally changes how the in-game world works is a bit too much of a stretch (at least for me). However, I will acknowledge that this may be a difference in interpreting FR's lore.

I know I've said this before, but at its heart, FR is about breeding dragons. Suggesting features that on-demand fixes could be dressed up to be lore-friendly, but it's probably not going to happen. The site's staff has turned down multiple suggestions that can be considered on-demand fixes such as gender change scrolls, element change scrolls and different variations of selective color change scrolls because FR is a pet breeding game. Grabbing a dragon and using a bunch of different scrolls to get exactly what you want does not align with their intentions for how FR is meant to be played. And I agree with the staff.

I don't think we're going to come to an agreement, but that's where I stand.

@/Ekon specifically here

Well, the collateral suggestion isn't necessarily supposed to be a lore friendly solution. It's just a solution. Plain and simple. However, if you want to put a lore spin on it, it can be done. If dragons are used as collateral, then you can say two rival clans are exchanging wards.

Basically, a ward was overglorified hostage in medieval Europe. A noble's child would be held and raised by a rival noble family to ensure good behavior. Game of Thrones features multiple fictional examples, but the author used a lot of historical information in the series.
[quote name="PalladiumX" date="2018-12-18 13:32:15" ] I know I've said this before, but at its heart, FR is about breeding dragons. Suggesting features that on-demand fixes could be dressed up to be lore-friendly, but it's probably not going to happen. The site's staff has turned down multiple suggestions that can be considered on-demand fixes such as gender change scrolls, element change scrolls and different variations of selective color change scrolls because FR is a pet breeding game. Grabbing a dragon and using a bunch of different scrolls to get exactly what you want does not align with their intentions for how FR is meant to be played. [/quote] I agree with you on things like gender changes scrolls, element change scrolls, etc, that actually affect an individual dragon. But this isn't "grabbing a dragon" and changing something about it. It's still about breeding. Especially if you're trying for a special eye type, which could take a long while to get, regardless.
PalladiumX wrote on 2018-12-18 13:32:15:
I know I've said this before, but at its heart, FR is about breeding dragons. Suggesting features that on-demand fixes could be dressed up to be lore-friendly, but it's probably not going to happen. The site's staff has turned down multiple suggestions that can be considered on-demand fixes such as gender change scrolls, element change scrolls and different variations of selective color change scrolls because FR is a pet breeding game. Grabbing a dragon and using a bunch of different scrolls to get exactly what you want does not align with their intentions for how FR is meant to be played.

I agree with you on things like gender changes scrolls, element change scrolls, etc, that actually affect an individual dragon. But this isn't "grabbing a dragon" and changing something about it. It's still about breeding. Especially if you're trying for a special eye type, which could take a long while to get, regardless.
@PalladiumX

My problem with suggesting collateral is that, as of right now, it is not a supported transaction, and I don't feel that unsupported transactions are something that should be used as a 'but we already have this' no support. Since it IS unsupported, then even with collateral, if something goes wrong, your dragon gets exalted, or sold, or the other user simply goes inactive (not even something their own fault, but like they literally cannot access FR), then nothing can be done to regain the dragon(s) that you sent. Whether or not collateral can be made 'lore friendly' it is still an unsupported transaction.

As for being able to go against the deities or the world itself, before Bogsneaks, I would have potentially agreed with you (maybe not) but we have Baldwin who managed to create an entire breed, nearly by himself, which previously was a think only the deities did. So, if Baldwin can do that, I don't really see why he couldn't create an icon that temporarily override the particular magic in an area. In a way, it isn't even overrriding it, but rather masking it. We know that eggs laid in non-magical lands wsimply won't hatch until they reach an area of magical influence, so the eggs apparently will simply pick up on whatever magic is available. So, in theory, should the closest, and strongest, magic source be an icon, then they should use that magic instead of the nest's natural magic.

This wouldn't negate the pet breeding aspect of the game, in fact it would enhance it even further, because then players wouldn't have to 'flight hop' in order to breed for different eyes (I am not mentioning nest renting, because as said before, it is an unsupported transaction)

Sex change scrolls are unlikely to happen, at least from what I have seen, because it is potentially game breaking due to lineages and how the site is coded. Element change scrolls are unlikely due to the lore behind elements and the fact that eye color is indicative of flight as well as the fact they could break the coliseum. Single color scrolls would give too much power for too little risk, which is why they are unlikely to be implemented. However, with the exception of sex change scrolls, I don't think I have seen them turn down element change or single color scatters, and even with sex change scrolls, it was more along the lines of 'we aren't planning on implementing this at this time' leaving room for them to change their minds.

However, if the materials and time required to brew were carefully considered, this wouldn't be something that players could use every nest. I am not talking about about using 10 of flight specific stones, and 10 of the fragment stones etc.. I am more thinking about 50 or 100 of each: so basically a recipe that calls for at least 100 stones to 300 stones (if 50 of each are required and you ahve two different stones needed or if 100 are needed and you need three different stones), with a long brewing time, high level recipe etc... At first, that would sound easy to gain, while I personally don't think I have those due to not really being a coli'er, I am sure some players could easily create several icons. At first. Then the supply would start dwindling if the demand for these icons were high enough (and since there would be 11 icons, and if all recipes called for an item in common, a 'stablizer' so to speak, then that would mean even fewer could be created)

This would hardly really be 'on demand' as the brew itself would take time to create. Sure, players could buy the completed icon off another player, but that player would have had to taken the time to brew it, and the cost would probably be indicative of that.

I also agree with the staff that a player shouldn't be able to just grab a random dragon off the AH and scroll them to perfection, but this suggestion has absolutely nothing to do with that. A player would still need to carefully select their breeding pairs, gene them, breed change them if necessary, etc.. Everything that is done now. They would just have a further option to apply this scroll to a nest so they can gain different colored eyes on the hatchlings than their natural ones. Nothing would change about breeding except that an unsupported transaction, nest rental, would no longer be necessary. The only downside is that flight changes simply for the eyes would no longer be necessary, but with the restrictions to flight changes (cost and cooldown) I am not sure that would be a huge loss anyways as I don't know how many people change flights simply for the eyes.

This would also be a good, in my opinion, item sink for items that no one tends to use, and even if they did, there are too many entering the site than being taken out.
@PalladiumX

My problem with suggesting collateral is that, as of right now, it is not a supported transaction, and I don't feel that unsupported transactions are something that should be used as a 'but we already have this' no support. Since it IS unsupported, then even with collateral, if something goes wrong, your dragon gets exalted, or sold, or the other user simply goes inactive (not even something their own fault, but like they literally cannot access FR), then nothing can be done to regain the dragon(s) that you sent. Whether or not collateral can be made 'lore friendly' it is still an unsupported transaction.

As for being able to go against the deities or the world itself, before Bogsneaks, I would have potentially agreed with you (maybe not) but we have Baldwin who managed to create an entire breed, nearly by himself, which previously was a think only the deities did. So, if Baldwin can do that, I don't really see why he couldn't create an icon that temporarily override the particular magic in an area. In a way, it isn't even overrriding it, but rather masking it. We know that eggs laid in non-magical lands wsimply won't hatch until they reach an area of magical influence, so the eggs apparently will simply pick up on whatever magic is available. So, in theory, should the closest, and strongest, magic source be an icon, then they should use that magic instead of the nest's natural magic.

This wouldn't negate the pet breeding aspect of the game, in fact it would enhance it even further, because then players wouldn't have to 'flight hop' in order to breed for different eyes (I am not mentioning nest renting, because as said before, it is an unsupported transaction)

Sex change scrolls are unlikely to happen, at least from what I have seen, because it is potentially game breaking due to lineages and how the site is coded. Element change scrolls are unlikely due to the lore behind elements and the fact that eye color is indicative of flight as well as the fact they could break the coliseum. Single color scrolls would give too much power for too little risk, which is why they are unlikely to be implemented. However, with the exception of sex change scrolls, I don't think I have seen them turn down element change or single color scatters, and even with sex change scrolls, it was more along the lines of 'we aren't planning on implementing this at this time' leaving room for them to change their minds.

However, if the materials and time required to brew were carefully considered, this wouldn't be something that players could use every nest. I am not talking about about using 10 of flight specific stones, and 10 of the fragment stones etc.. I am more thinking about 50 or 100 of each: so basically a recipe that calls for at least 100 stones to 300 stones (if 50 of each are required and you ahve two different stones needed or if 100 are needed and you need three different stones), with a long brewing time, high level recipe etc... At first, that would sound easy to gain, while I personally don't think I have those due to not really being a coli'er, I am sure some players could easily create several icons. At first. Then the supply would start dwindling if the demand for these icons were high enough (and since there would be 11 icons, and if all recipes called for an item in common, a 'stablizer' so to speak, then that would mean even fewer could be created)

This would hardly really be 'on demand' as the brew itself would take time to create. Sure, players could buy the completed icon off another player, but that player would have had to taken the time to brew it, and the cost would probably be indicative of that.

I also agree with the staff that a player shouldn't be able to just grab a random dragon off the AH and scroll them to perfection, but this suggestion has absolutely nothing to do with that. A player would still need to carefully select their breeding pairs, gene them, breed change them if necessary, etc.. Everything that is done now. They would just have a further option to apply this scroll to a nest so they can gain different colored eyes on the hatchlings than their natural ones. Nothing would change about breeding except that an unsupported transaction, nest rental, would no longer be necessary. The only downside is that flight changes simply for the eyes would no longer be necessary, but with the restrictions to flight changes (cost and cooldown) I am not sure that would be a huge loss anyways as I don't know how many people change flights simply for the eyes.

This would also be a good, in my opinion, item sink for items that no one tends to use, and even if they did, there are too many entering the site than being taken out.

#UnnamedIsValid
Let them Fight
Let them Serve the Deities
Let them Exist in peace!
Dragons needed --->
58610356.png
Breed Characteristic Apparel!

Cuckoo Breed and Mutations!

Change Unnamed in YOUR dragon's profile!
14318365.png
Functionality > lore. If you find it so bad either make up your own lore for it or dont use it. Support
Functionality > lore. If you find it so bad either make up your own lore for it or dont use it. Support
@Jemadar

Just for the record, the 2nd paragraph I wrote was meant to explain that an item like this is probably never going to be released using known information about the staff's preferences.

It's still an item that can be brewed in advance before a person breeds a pair of dragons and then be used at the time of breeding. Even if this item would take a lot of time, treasure and resources to make, I don't know if you've considered the effects of the cauldron rental market. A player could, theoretically, rent other players cauldrons to make several of these icons relatively quickly. For a person with enough treasure and resources, renting cauldrons wouldn't be an issue at all.

Whether a player buys it, rents someone else's cauldron or brews it themselves, it still doesn't negate the fundamental problem of this suggestion. This is an an item that changes the element of nest temporarily. It effectively acts as a single-use elemental change scroll for one to five dragons. That is why it is never going to happen.

Also, I do agree with you that just because the system of "collateral, nest rentals and hoping for the best" is the one we have doesn't mean it's the best and we should never change that. Expanding the CR to include all items was probably the best thing the staff ever did to get rid of scammers.

Basically, the TL;DR version of my posts is this: Personally I don't support it cuz I don't think it's lore-friendly. Realistically, I'm almost 100% certain it's not gonna happen.

@Jemadar

Just for the record, the 2nd paragraph I wrote was meant to explain that an item like this is probably never going to be released using known information about the staff's preferences.

It's still an item that can be brewed in advance before a person breeds a pair of dragons and then be used at the time of breeding. Even if this item would take a lot of time, treasure and resources to make, I don't know if you've considered the effects of the cauldron rental market. A player could, theoretically, rent other players cauldrons to make several of these icons relatively quickly. For a person with enough treasure and resources, renting cauldrons wouldn't be an issue at all.

Whether a player buys it, rents someone else's cauldron or brews it themselves, it still doesn't negate the fundamental problem of this suggestion. This is an an item that changes the element of nest temporarily. It effectively acts as a single-use elemental change scroll for one to five dragons. That is why it is never going to happen.

Also, I do agree with you that just because the system of "collateral, nest rentals and hoping for the best" is the one we have doesn't mean it's the best and we should never change that. Expanding the CR to include all items was probably the best thing the staff ever did to get rid of scammers.

Basically, the TL;DR version of my posts is this: Personally I don't support it cuz I don't think it's lore-friendly. Realistically, I'm almost 100% certain it's not gonna happen.

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