Flight Rising Discussion

First off, Happy Thundercrack! Now enough of that. [b]The Set Up[/b] It's been well established that Plague and Nature are two sides of the same coin, but what exactly does that mean? Plague is about Survival! ~ Yes, but so is Nature. Nature's lore emphasizes the proliferation of life in any and all ways. You can't value proliferation without also valuing survival. [quote=The Viridian Labyrinth] The [url=https://www1.flightrising.com/wiki/world-map/region/10]Viridian Labyrinth[/url] is considered the pulsing, verdant center of what remains of the Gladekeeper's ambitious campaign to blanket the world in life abundant.[/quote] Nature is about Growth! ~ Yes, but so is Plague. Unbounded growth is a key value of Plague. The Plaguelands are also trying to expand and devour the world. [quote=The Wandering Contagion] Like an [url=https://www1.flightrising.com/wiki/world-map/region/2]expansive festering scar[/url], the edges of the Filthy One's domain have taken on a border conquest of their own. ... It will not be long until the encroachment begins to threaten foreign clans and flights.[/quote] So already this dichotomy is shaky at best, with lots of overlap and crossover between values and philosophies. That's not surprising, in our world plague and disease are very much a sub-part of biology (aka nature). Plague's unofficial motto of 'survival of the fittest' and emphasis on evolution are taken directly from [url=https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Survival_of_the_fittest]major tenets of Biology[/url]. Therefore I would argue that drawing lines between them using those values ultimately isn't going to be useful. Then there's the Nature is Life, Plague is Death thing. [i]Sigh[/i]. It's not at all surprising that people tend to equate Plague with death, given that Flight Rising's canonical lore is guilty of this very thing. [Quote=The Third Age] [url=https://flightrising.com/main.php?p=wiki&article=12]The apocalypse[/url] had done more than spur the rejuvenation of flora: the fauna still rotted, left to fester upon the soil, and spoil in the dreadful warmth. [i][b]Death[/b][/i] leveraged the excess energy in another way.[/quote] emoji=mirror facepalming And when your [url=https://flightrising.fandom.com/wiki/Plague_Flight]favored treasures are bones[/url], people can be excused from thinking your flight is all about death (not to mention the [url=https://www1.flightrising.com/forums/skin/2758657]festival skins[/url] every year). But of course, Plague flight values life just as much as Nature does. [url=https://www1.flightrising.com/forums/gde/1154710/1#post_5509482]Plaguemother's quotes[/url] are littered with references about overcoming death through survival, with a prime example being her now [url=https://www1.flightrising.com/forums/frd/1126218/4#post_4943564]infamous hatred of Emperors[/url] and zombies because they are dead and can no longer evolve. [b]The Example[/b] At this point we accept that Plague and Nature ultimately have the same values, so it follows that they must differ in how they go about realizing those values. Let me tell you, this gets very problematic very quickly. Because the tendency is to assume (with a fair amount of justification) that Nature seeks to grow and thrive through cooperation, altruism, and mutual assistance, while Plague seeks to grow and thrive through weeding out the weak, self-harm, and sociopathic levels of selfishness with a generous heaping of an uncaring disregard for others. [b]I have no idea where people could have gotten that idea from.[/b] [quote=The Seed and The Sickness] [url=https://flightrising.com/main.php?p=wiki&article=99]Liefa[/url] struggled to rise before falling back with a rattled gasp, “...Garote…” Morix bared his teeth at her. “He will survive or he won’t. If he doesn’t, he wasn’t a child of the Plaguebringer.”[/quote] Morix. [i]Morix[/i]. '[url=https://flightrising.com/main.php?p=wiki&article=99]Hundreds of [your] warriors have fallen[/url]', defending your homeland. I guess they weren't children of the Plaguebringer either? If dying disqualifies you from being a Plague dragon [i]I have some terrible news for you![/i] [b]Sigh.[/b] Inconvenient site lore aside, I think it's pretty clear that this picture of Nature as Hippies and Plague as Sociopaths is not only restrictive, reductive, and inherently problematic, it's also just not very fun or useful for lore generation. Even when people try to argue the Plague/Nature distinctions along those lines, it's amusing to see how quickly the [url=https://www1.flightrising.com/forums/frd/2871547#post_2871547]addendums, clarifications, and exceptions build up[/url]. [size=2](Not meant to be a call out post, this thread was very useful in doing research for this Ted Talk)[/size] I would also argue that these philosophies don't jive very well with the larger Flight values of survival and growth. In Plague, I feel that survival (to spread and conquer the world) is the key point, and whether you do that through building up antibodies, prosthetics, or some good ol' fashion chicken soup from mom, the ends justify the means and [i]no we aren't going to leave you to bleed out on the ground through some mystical belief that your Plague fervor can overcome basic fluid dynamics[/i]. In Nature, haven't you ever heard the saying [url=https://www.phrases.org.uk/meanings/red-in-tooth-and-claw.html]"Nature, red in tooth and claw"[/url]? And excuse me? Have we all forgotten about the exceptionally aggressive and combative [url=https://flightrising.com/main.php?p=wiki&article=5]Nature breed[/url], who's breed philosophy is "might makes right"??? emoji=mirror gesturing incredulously and emphatically Also I give you this portrait of [url=https://www1.flightrising.com/forums/cc/1012172/7#post_2564380]Gladekeeper[/url]. No further arguments needed. [b]My Hypothesis[/b] What does that leave us with? I'd argue that it is true that Plague and Nature seek to accomplish the same goals but through different means. However, those means differ primarily in [i]focus[/i] rather than moral values. Specifically, whether that focus is inward, or outward. Nature dragons are outwardly focused. They seek to survive and grow through the evolution of their environment. If a land is inhospitable, they make it hospitable. They dig and plant and build and change the world around them. [quote=The Gladeveins] [url=https://www1.flightrising.com/wiki/world-map/region/10]The Gladeveins[/url] contain a tiered structure of aqueducts and waterfalls running through fallen and hewn logs, a testament to the ingenuity of the woodland denizens. Water floods in controlled deluges, soaking the soil, washing clean the environment, and providing continual, refreshing sustenance for the tall timber forming the natural outer walls of the Viridian Labyrinth within.[/quote] Plague dragons are inwardly focused. They seek to survive and grow through the evolution of themselves. If a land is inhospitable, they make themselves capable of living there. They adapt, and grow immune, and learn, and overcome, and change their behavior or physiology to fit the world around them. [quote=The Third Age] [url=https://flightrising.com/main.php?p=wiki&article=12]Not everything can be healed.[/url] The apocalypse had done more than spur the rejuvenation of flora: the fauna still rotted, left to fester upon the soil, and spoil in the dreadful warmth. ... Where nature [i]could not mend, decay took its place[/i]. Putrid film soaked and crept across the ground, enveloping everything in its path.[/quote] To illustrate, take the key features of the Flight's respective homelands. [url=https://www1.flightrising.com/wiki/world-map/region/10]The Behemoth[/url] was planted by the Gladekeeper. It shelters her children, provides them with nourishment and shade, and purifies the land and water for untold distances surrounding it. The Behemoth pushes continuously out through its expanding root system, turning the land to forest and glade in its effort to make all of Sornieth a home for Nature Dragons. [url=https://www1.flightrising.com/wiki/world-map/region/2]The Wyrmwound[/url] was an existing[?] feature that was nurtured by the Plaguebringer. It's presence forced Plague dragons to adapt and evolve in order to survive near it. It also pushes out, forcing the life it comes in contact with to change and evolve as well in order to survive. While it also seeks to engulf the world, the transformation is in many ways an internal one, occurring within life forms to ultimately create an army of One of Us. Ultimately, the differences between Plague and Nature don't lie in who would give you vaccines or who wouldn't, who would build you a new leg or who would leave you to crawl along the ground. I'd argue those things have more to do with the personalities and cultures of the dragons in question, and could be irrespective of Flight. The larger, more important distinctions lie in how Plague and Nature dragons problem solve, where they focus their efforts, and how they accomplish their shared goals of survival and growth. Thank you for coming to my Ted Talk.

Absolutely brilliant.

I always found myself troubled at the idea of Plague=Death and that Nature=Peace loving hippies.

Well said!

I will never understand the idea of Nature as hippies. They always seemed more like the type to be jungle/forest warriors, not arbiters of peace. With the mentioned creation and nature of Wildclaw, and Gladekeeper being a xenophobic warmonger(the warmonger part being all gods of course) that made a bio weapon just as world destroying as the Final Infection.

"The First Seed was nurtured by the Gladekeeper herself, grown and plucked from the highest boughs of the Behemoth. If allowed to germinate, The First Seed will unleash a proliferation of hyperflora, reclaiming the land and all who reside in it.”

I agree with a lot of this, thanks for the post! It's very well written, 10/10.

I always saw Plague as being about random individual survival. It doesn't matter how strong or clever you or your group are if you don't have that one specific gene that helps you survive a disease. So death is intrinsically a part of their society, and those who were once strong can be crippled in an instant, leading to instability in the region. It's a constant reshuffling.

I see Nature as being more about cooperative evolution. Can a clan survive this new predator? Can a pack of this creature survive a new food shortage? etc. Dragons of many types can work together to face new challenges and grow as a group. A group has a far easier time fighting a predator than a plague. Changes occur more slowly in Nature than in Plague.

I always throw Lightning in as the third part of this triangle, as weird as it sounds. Plague dragons adapt individually, Nature dragons adapt as groups, and Lightning dragons force the environment to adapt to them. Each deals with the challenges of their world in unique ways in order to fit their deity's idea of strength.

@/Ern I feel you on a lot of that. I’m a mirror-centric lair so that heavily biases my thinking. Mirrors are a heavily cooperative breed, using sheer numbers to take down larger prey. Versus WCs, which are much more individualistic with that might makes right philosophy. I’m not saying that two breeds define their flights, but it got me thinking along other pathways. Of course I headcanon that the breeds as described are sort of pre-civilization versions of themselves (especially the mirrors) so *shrug*.

I'm bookmarking this. It's that good of an explanation.

I was in nature for years and moved to plague-the whole thing about nature seeking to make the environment better and plague about making themselves better is very true. In fact, I moved to plague because I was ready to leave my old lair and identity behind and create a newer one that I would be happier with. I feel barely any different after moving, only that plague suits my personality and lore a little more.
The difference I see between nature and plague is that when the world falls apart around them, nature tries to repair it and provide hospitality to those left behind, and plague tries to better themselves so they can survive and find others willing to do the same-don't forget the breed lore, as wildclaws do collaborate, but with a strictly defined hierarchy and with massive, ornate lairs. Mirrors have no leader nor lair, they only settle down if they're injured or hunting. Both breeds are carnivores who love the hunt, prefer running over flying, and value power. In fact, wildclaws selectively breed to have the strongest children. They've also been found in plague territory, which houses the second largest population of them. The two breeds are nearly identical, with their only behavioral difference being their social structure or lack thereof (and mirrors being slightly less picky cause they live in disease land).
I think the reason I moved to plague is because I was done trying to blame all my problems on environmental factors and focus on self-improvement. To accept and adapt to change instead of trying to put things back the way they were. If I wanted to better the world, I'd have to better myself first.
Maybe once I've learned to do that, I'll move back to nature. But I'm happy here for now.

[quote name="3idolon" date="2020-07-26 11:11:50" ] Nature dragons are outwardly focused. They seek to survive and grow through the evolution of their environment. If a land is inhospitable, they make it hospitable. They dig and plant and build and change the world around them. ... Plague dragons are inwardly focused. They seek to survive and grow through the evolution of themselves. If a land is inhospitable, they make themselves capable of living there. They adapt, and grow immune, and learn, and overcome, and change their behavior or physiology to fit the world around them. [/quote] Satisfying explanation, I agree. I’m not much of a lore person, but the idea that nature is the “good” twin and plague is the “bad” twin never sat right with me. I like the idea that neither are morally wrong, their preferred methods are just different.

[quote name="penguala" date="2020-07-26 11:57:40" ] Edit; also, since wildClaw selectively breed, and mirrors do the swarming, I find it kinda funny that, according to my take, maybe plaguemum and glademum accidentally made breeds more fit for each other than themselves? [/quote] I've always seen it as the direct opposite. [emoji=guardian laughing size=1] Considering Plague, on top of doing swarming, also has the Wandering Contagion, a biomass covering the land and trying to take over other territory, much like the Zerg Creep. Especially with the idea of fast evolving/mutating to survive better. "As we spread, we will thrive." Plague to me is like some mess compilation of Zerg and various Warhammer Chaos worshipers. What with the making diseases and bone collection. But that's mainly because I also have no interest in trying to put real life mentality and society to fantasy creatures.