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TOPIC | Words on the Wind - Vol. 1
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Let me say that I'm happy with whatever direction you take on the economy situation. If it means I have to play 2 hours of flash games to afford that new dragon, it's worth it. I'm here to have pretty dragons in my lair, and maybe RP on the forum. The economy has yet to stop me from finding dragons I love, but perhaps my tastes are just not expensive enough.

Either way, I'm happy. And I hope we can find a way to please the others as well. You can't satisfy everyone, but trying to anyway is a sure sign if a dedicated team.

I do have to ask, do you have plans for a possible gem sale in the future? Most sites with this feature have an occasional holiday/event deal on their real money currency. If it attracts a lot of new buyers, you can be sure to make a profit. And if not, you'll take a slight loss but you might also gain more consistent gem purchasers once those cheaper folk have bought once. Just a thought.

Thanks you guys. I appreciate all you do to keep the site moving forward.
Let me say that I'm happy with whatever direction you take on the economy situation. If it means I have to play 2 hours of flash games to afford that new dragon, it's worth it. I'm here to have pretty dragons in my lair, and maybe RP on the forum. The economy has yet to stop me from finding dragons I love, but perhaps my tastes are just not expensive enough.

Either way, I'm happy. And I hope we can find a way to please the others as well. You can't satisfy everyone, but trying to anyway is a sure sign if a dedicated team.

I do have to ask, do you have plans for a possible gem sale in the future? Most sites with this feature have an occasional holiday/event deal on their real money currency. If it attracts a lot of new buyers, you can be sure to make a profit. And if not, you'll take a slight loss but you might also gain more consistent gem purchasers once those cheaper folk have bought once. Just a thought.

Thanks you guys. I appreciate all you do to keep the site moving forward.
@Microraptor - Do you mind if I ask a question? (Hopefully not, gonna anyway.)

How would an economy based around breeding work? I'm trying to understand the perspective that that's what this site needs to move forward/fix any money problems. Cause I don't think that will fix any, actually. But maybe I've got the wrong idea.
@Microraptor - Do you mind if I ask a question? (Hopefully not, gonna anyway.)

How would an economy based around breeding work? I'm trying to understand the perspective that that's what this site needs to move forward/fix any money problems. Cause I don't think that will fix any, actually. But maybe I've got the wrong idea.
I think one of the big issues with the low sell value of dragons is the comparatively high cost of gene and breedchange scrolls. It feels as if there's no point spending loads of treasure to improve my dragons, because it would be infinitely cheaper and easier to just buy new dragons with the genes and breeds I'm looking for. I know I'll never recoup the value of the scrolls through selling the hatchlings. Just going out and buying a dragon is not as satisfying as improving my dragons and breeding them to get the dragons I want, but the main means of making treasure (grinding at slightly boring games) just isn't worth it.

I think that making a more rewarding exalt system would actually do wonders for the economy. If people can easily get more treasure through exalting dragons, people will be forced to pay more if they want to buy a dragon form someone (since if you can easily get more from exalting than from selling to another player, you'll probably exalt).

Just as a side note, I'm actually really into the roleplaying aspect of the game. I have elaborate personalities and backstories for most of my dragons and I have a lot of fun with that. But it's frustrating when you have to spend hours grinding in order to improve your dragons, and you never make that back in any way. Maybe rarer dragons could generate more treasure when you exalt them? And maybe dragons with rarer genes, as well?
I think one of the big issues with the low sell value of dragons is the comparatively high cost of gene and breedchange scrolls. It feels as if there's no point spending loads of treasure to improve my dragons, because it would be infinitely cheaper and easier to just buy new dragons with the genes and breeds I'm looking for. I know I'll never recoup the value of the scrolls through selling the hatchlings. Just going out and buying a dragon is not as satisfying as improving my dragons and breeding them to get the dragons I want, but the main means of making treasure (grinding at slightly boring games) just isn't worth it.

I think that making a more rewarding exalt system would actually do wonders for the economy. If people can easily get more treasure through exalting dragons, people will be forced to pay more if they want to buy a dragon form someone (since if you can easily get more from exalting than from selling to another player, you'll probably exalt).

Just as a side note, I'm actually really into the roleplaying aspect of the game. I have elaborate personalities and backstories for most of my dragons and I have a lot of fun with that. But it's frustrating when you have to spend hours grinding in order to improve your dragons, and you never make that back in any way. Maybe rarer dragons could generate more treasure when you exalt them? And maybe dragons with rarer genes, as well?
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[quote name="scribblingface" date="2013-10-08 15:27:13"]I think one of the big issues with the low sell value of dragons is the comparatively high cost of gene and breedchange scrolls. [b]It feels as if there's no point spending loads of treasure to improve my dragons, because it would be infinitely cheaper and easier to just buy new dragons with the genes and breeds I'm looking for.[/b] I know I'll never recoup the value of the scrolls through selling the hatchlings. [b]Just going out and buying a dragon is not as satisfying as improving my dragons and breeding them to get the dragons I want[/b], but the main means of making treasure (grinding at slightly boring games) just isn't worth it. I think that making a more rewarding exalt system would actually do wonders for the economy. If people can easily get more treasure through exalting dragons, people will be forced to pay more if they want to buy a dragon form someone (since if you can easily get more from exalting than from selling to another player, you'll probably exalt). Just as a side note, I'm actually really into the roleplaying aspect of the game. I have elaborate personalities and backstories for most of my dragons and I have a lot of fun with that. But it's frustrating when you have to spend hours grinding in order to improve your dragons, and you never make that back in any way. Maybe rarer dragons could generate more treasure when you exalt them? And maybe dragons with rarer genes, as well?[/quote] Thank you for more concisely conveying my feelings! Exalting prices for rarer dragons could also be highly varied. A snapper exalt could net you anywhere from 15-35k. That way there isn't a "hard" bottom line sell price for dragons (aside from roughly the average exalt reward price), and would make exalting more like opening a chest. Like I said before, I don't care if it takes three months worth of breeding to get my investment back, but I'd like to see my efforts pay off [i]some day[/i].
scribblingface wrote on 2013-10-08 15:27:13:
I think one of the big issues with the low sell value of dragons is the comparatively high cost of gene and breedchange scrolls. It feels as if there's no point spending loads of treasure to improve my dragons, because it would be infinitely cheaper and easier to just buy new dragons with the genes and breeds I'm looking for. I know I'll never recoup the value of the scrolls through selling the hatchlings. Just going out and buying a dragon is not as satisfying as improving my dragons and breeding them to get the dragons I want, but the main means of making treasure (grinding at slightly boring games) just isn't worth it.

I think that making a more rewarding exalt system would actually do wonders for the economy. If people can easily get more treasure through exalting dragons, people will be forced to pay more if they want to buy a dragon form someone (since if you can easily get more from exalting than from selling to another player, you'll probably exalt).

Just as a side note, I'm actually really into the roleplaying aspect of the game. I have elaborate personalities and backstories for most of my dragons and I have a lot of fun with that. But it's frustrating when you have to spend hours grinding in order to improve your dragons, and you never make that back in any way. Maybe rarer dragons could generate more treasure when you exalt them? And maybe dragons with rarer genes, as well?

Thank you for more concisely conveying my feelings!

Exalting prices for rarer dragons could also be highly varied. A snapper exalt could net you anywhere from 15-35k. That way there isn't a "hard" bottom line sell price for dragons (aside from roughly the average exalt reward price), and would make exalting more like opening a chest.

Like I said before, I don't care if it takes three months worth of breeding to get my investment back, but I'd like to see my efforts pay off some day.
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@Cathal. Since the economy isn't about making money on the site, or about getting rich -- but rather about an exchange between users a giant chunk of the FR economy IS already breeding based. We're already in a game with a breeding based economy. The economy right now just isn't rewarding people super in to breeding very well right now since dragons are becoming increasingly slow to sell and are dropping rapidly in price.

If you're asking about how a higher tier of expensive dragons would work, there's several ways I could think of

1) Increase perceived value of these dragons.

Example 1: Put in two breeds at once. Breed A and Breed B. Breed B could only be gotten through a mix of Breed A and some other specific dragon OR Breed B being mixed with Breed B, Breed A, or another specific breed.

Which would mean even if a dragon isn't particularly rare people would percieve it as valuable and pay more for it because it could be a gateway to Breed B. Very similar to how Wildclaws are used now, and how they're retained price relatively well despite initially being cheaper than commons.

Example 2: Add in a cool gene that can only be used by specific dragons, creating a perceived higher value for these dragons. This could be a breed restricted gene OR could be a gene that changes based on the dragon's element.

Much like Imps prices would be -- at least initially -- artificially inflated based on the fact that people -really want- these guys. Which is different than demand. Like, there might still be the same amount of people DEMANDing the item (that is, the same demand) but if there is a kind of mouth-frothing high amount of desire for the item then you get a situation like bidding wars at an auction (where an item can go for WAY ABOVE its value even though the 'demand' in that case might just be two people fighting over it).

2) Add in dragons that continue to change over time, and gain new breeding abilities based on how old they are OR add in new breeding abilities that are dependent on a dragon's level.

Like, maybe add in some colors/genes that are only attainable through breeding a 'special' (read, older or more high level dragon). You could even make it if a dragon is traded they lose these special abilities. The main problem I see with this would be that it would disproportionately reward players who can spend long continuous periods on the site OR who are early adopters.

3) Add in dragons that produce different offspring based on how many times they are bred.

The offspring could be either more or less valuable as time goes on. Either way would serve to restrict numbers of the variant offspring, while simultaneously increasing (or decreasing) the value of the parents -- making players have to make choices about how long they might keep a dragon, or how many times they might breed them.

4) Add in 'variant sprites' for several breeds that can pop up when one is breeding. Perhaps base them on the elements of the nest they are bred in, or, based on apparel the parent dragons are wearing when they are bred.

5) Add in a ways to facilitate studding, nest sharing, and multi-dragon exchanges (say, 2 dragons for 1 dragon in a trade) without making players take significant risks and having to fear about the trustworthiness of their partner. Put in game mechanics that facilitate people charging for studdings. Make it so that when you buy a dragon you like, you do not feel automatically compelled to go out and buy a mate for them. This would be ESPECIALLY useful for the high-tier breeding I am talking about.

6) Add in an infertility mechanic. Give players the option to spend money to render a dragon 'infertile' before they sell it. The infertility mechanic might be a permanent thing (the game equivalent of spaying or neutering a dragon) or, it might be a temporary thing. Infertile dragons would, of course, sell for a lot less than fertile ones. This would make it so that players who DON'T want to play a hardcore breeding game could get their paws on a pretty dragon that they like (and want to RP with or use in the coli) without messing up the high-tier breeders' plans. Maybe even make it so that infertile dragons have a higher-exalt price than fertile ones to encourage players looking to make a quick sale to render their dragons infertile.

The idea is that most of the dragon prices stay right where they are. But that new content is added that will provide gameplay for the people who want to buy, sell, and trade dragons for 500k. Game play that could be worked up to over several months solely via breeding dragons if one wished (eg. using plentifuls to make enough money to buy commons, using commons to make enough money to buy uncommons, using uncommons to make enough money to get into the limited and rare market). I WANT dream dragons to be accessable to people! I also want there to be a game for 'hardcore' breeders that ISN'T just made up of breeding triple obsidians and triple whites.
@Cathal. Since the economy isn't about making money on the site, or about getting rich -- but rather about an exchange between users a giant chunk of the FR economy IS already breeding based. We're already in a game with a breeding based economy. The economy right now just isn't rewarding people super in to breeding very well right now since dragons are becoming increasingly slow to sell and are dropping rapidly in price.

If you're asking about how a higher tier of expensive dragons would work, there's several ways I could think of

1) Increase perceived value of these dragons.

Example 1: Put in two breeds at once. Breed A and Breed B. Breed B could only be gotten through a mix of Breed A and some other specific dragon OR Breed B being mixed with Breed B, Breed A, or another specific breed.

Which would mean even if a dragon isn't particularly rare people would percieve it as valuable and pay more for it because it could be a gateway to Breed B. Very similar to how Wildclaws are used now, and how they're retained price relatively well despite initially being cheaper than commons.

Example 2: Add in a cool gene that can only be used by specific dragons, creating a perceived higher value for these dragons. This could be a breed restricted gene OR could be a gene that changes based on the dragon's element.

Much like Imps prices would be -- at least initially -- artificially inflated based on the fact that people -really want- these guys. Which is different than demand. Like, there might still be the same amount of people DEMANDing the item (that is, the same demand) but if there is a kind of mouth-frothing high amount of desire for the item then you get a situation like bidding wars at an auction (where an item can go for WAY ABOVE its value even though the 'demand' in that case might just be two people fighting over it).

2) Add in dragons that continue to change over time, and gain new breeding abilities based on how old they are OR add in new breeding abilities that are dependent on a dragon's level.

Like, maybe add in some colors/genes that are only attainable through breeding a 'special' (read, older or more high level dragon). You could even make it if a dragon is traded they lose these special abilities. The main problem I see with this would be that it would disproportionately reward players who can spend long continuous periods on the site OR who are early adopters.

3) Add in dragons that produce different offspring based on how many times they are bred.

The offspring could be either more or less valuable as time goes on. Either way would serve to restrict numbers of the variant offspring, while simultaneously increasing (or decreasing) the value of the parents -- making players have to make choices about how long they might keep a dragon, or how many times they might breed them.

4) Add in 'variant sprites' for several breeds that can pop up when one is breeding. Perhaps base them on the elements of the nest they are bred in, or, based on apparel the parent dragons are wearing when they are bred.

5) Add in a ways to facilitate studding, nest sharing, and multi-dragon exchanges (say, 2 dragons for 1 dragon in a trade) without making players take significant risks and having to fear about the trustworthiness of their partner. Put in game mechanics that facilitate people charging for studdings. Make it so that when you buy a dragon you like, you do not feel automatically compelled to go out and buy a mate for them. This would be ESPECIALLY useful for the high-tier breeding I am talking about.

6) Add in an infertility mechanic. Give players the option to spend money to render a dragon 'infertile' before they sell it. The infertility mechanic might be a permanent thing (the game equivalent of spaying or neutering a dragon) or, it might be a temporary thing. Infertile dragons would, of course, sell for a lot less than fertile ones. This would make it so that players who DON'T want to play a hardcore breeding game could get their paws on a pretty dragon that they like (and want to RP with or use in the coli) without messing up the high-tier breeders' plans. Maybe even make it so that infertile dragons have a higher-exalt price than fertile ones to encourage players looking to make a quick sale to render their dragons infertile.

The idea is that most of the dragon prices stay right where they are. But that new content is added that will provide gameplay for the people who want to buy, sell, and trade dragons for 500k. Game play that could be worked up to over several months solely via breeding dragons if one wished (eg. using plentifuls to make enough money to buy commons, using commons to make enough money to buy uncommons, using uncommons to make enough money to get into the limited and rare market). I WANT dream dragons to be accessable to people! I also want there to be a game for 'hardcore' breeders that ISN'T just made up of breeding triple obsidians and triple whites.
To those saying that Flight Rising is a breeding sim because it doesn't have an open world to explore or a multitude of games: this site is still relatively new. Adventuring is still being in the works. The admins/coders are trying to work out the current kinks before shoving new games that could (and probably would) cause an even bigger mess.

Yes, breeding is a large part of how many players interact now. In a year, though? Two? Who's to say it's even going to be that important, aside from experimenting, getting exalt fodder, and a little chump change?
To those saying that Flight Rising is a breeding sim because it doesn't have an open world to explore or a multitude of games: this site is still relatively new. Adventuring is still being in the works. The admins/coders are trying to work out the current kinks before shoving new games that could (and probably would) cause an even bigger mess.

Yes, breeding is a large part of how many players interact now. In a year, though? Two? Who's to say it's even going to be that important, aside from experimenting, getting exalt fodder, and a little chump change?
Gilded Carnival (General) | Gilded Carnival (Light) | Gilded Raffle IC | IC: Gold Standard | Cryptic Cartographs | 50 / 2000
@Microraptor [quote]We're already in a game with a breeding based economy. [/quote] No we're not. Breeding is not a reliable means to place money into the economy at all actually; we're seeing that, quite clearly, on the Auction House right now. What you've detailed there are a few ways to attempt to change it into one. But I'm not entirely certain how a complete overhaul like that that will fix a treasure/money problem at all. You can't strong arm people into buying your dragons, no matter what you do. There are quite a lot of players who already don't make most of their money via breeding (which takes maybe one to five minutes to attempt, which as a normal game mechanic should not be the primary way you exchange money because it is so effortless to achieve). They're cool ideas. I just don't see if "fixing" an economy. I see it switching to a whole new one and bringing in its own slew of problems with it. [b]Edit:[/b] @Fara - I'm so excited for that Adventuring mechanic btw. Hopefully I'm not getting ahead of myself with it though. xD
@Microraptor
Quote:
We're already in a game with a breeding based economy.

No we're not. Breeding is not a reliable means to place money into the economy at all actually; we're seeing that, quite clearly, on the Auction House right now. What you've detailed there are a few ways to attempt to change it into one. But I'm not entirely certain how a complete overhaul like that that will fix a treasure/money problem at all. You can't strong arm people into buying your dragons, no matter what you do. There are quite a lot of players who already don't make most of their money via breeding (which takes maybe one to five minutes to attempt, which as a normal game mechanic should not be the primary way you exchange money because it is so effortless to achieve). They're cool ideas. I just don't see if "fixing" an economy. I see it switching to a whole new one and bringing in its own slew of problems with it.

Edit: @Fara - I'm so excited for that Adventuring mechanic btw. Hopefully I'm not getting ahead of myself with it though. xD
@Cathal I am too. It sounds like it's going to be epic! (In the literal sense, not the slang sense.)
@Cathal I am too. It sounds like it's going to be epic! (In the literal sense, not the slang sense.)
Gilded Carnival (General) | Gilded Carnival (Light) | Gilded Raffle IC | IC: Gold Standard | Cryptic Cartographs | 50 / 2000
@Cathal

If the economy is NOT breeding based... then what IS it based on? You can make money comparable to to the games if you flip stuff based on Swipp's swaps. But, not many people do that. I'd bet overall way more money is spent on dragons every day than is spent on any other thing sold on the site. What I see quite clearly on the auction house is ~1500 pages of dragons. What I see is thousands and thousands of dragons sold each week for dominance wars. Keep track of the dragons-under-6k market for a few days and see how many you can find that are 5 days old or older in comparison to ones UNDER 5 days old. All of those dragons are going somewhere.

(Also, some users over on tumblr -- dragon-capitalism I think? Have been keeping tabs on AH numbers and have found that despite all the cries and wails about exponentially increasing dragons the number of dragons on the AH has NOT exponentially increased. Other things are driving prices down).

Dragon sales are the backbone of the economy. Again, an economy is NOT about 'what makes the most money' it's about 'what items cause the most transactions to take place'. Like, in the real world bread and butter make up a much larger portion of the economy than Yachts even though Yachts sell for a lot more, and Yacht-makers make a lot more than you average mom-and-pop bakery.

Because dragon prices are the back-bone of the economy, as dragons have fallen in price so have other items. The one exception to this is food -- and that's because lairs are filling up.

If there are no transactions in the game -- that is, all the money is earned from games and then is thrown into treasure sinks then there is no economy. None. Whatsoever. There ARE basically economy-free games out there that are social in nature (think 'farmville').

The ideas I proposed are not designed to significantly alter the economy, or to change it over to an entirely breeding-based economy. They're designed to create a tier at the top of the dragon market for hardcore breeders to play in -- like imps were about 3... 4 weeks ago.

(The imp dive has happened, by the by, not because of exponential imps -- but rather because all the players who can afford an imp already have one or two and increasingly full lairs, and the players with empty lairs couldn't afford 500k-800k dragons even though they want them. So, since there was such a big gap in 'new players' and 'old players' in terms of time there was no one coming up to the Could Afford An Imp at the right time... so even though the demand for imps was there, the means to buy them was not. The big gap in user registrations is more to blame for the top tiers of the breeding game collapsing than anything else.

I don't believe that reopening user registrations will drive imps back up where they were though, because now the perceived value of imps in the eyes of users has dropped. People will just stubbornly refuse to buy them when the prices go back up. And like you said. You can't force people to buy your dragons.

Which is why I believe NEW STUFF needs to be introduced that players will be A) mad for because it's so "cool" (people WILL pay out the nose for the "cool" factor. Think about how 1st gens are routinely worth 5x more than similar dragons that are not 1st gen) and B) is perceived as being WORTH those high prices because it's a status symbol and so "cool".)
@Cathal

If the economy is NOT breeding based... then what IS it based on? You can make money comparable to to the games if you flip stuff based on Swipp's swaps. But, not many people do that. I'd bet overall way more money is spent on dragons every day than is spent on any other thing sold on the site. What I see quite clearly on the auction house is ~1500 pages of dragons. What I see is thousands and thousands of dragons sold each week for dominance wars. Keep track of the dragons-under-6k market for a few days and see how many you can find that are 5 days old or older in comparison to ones UNDER 5 days old. All of those dragons are going somewhere.

(Also, some users over on tumblr -- dragon-capitalism I think? Have been keeping tabs on AH numbers and have found that despite all the cries and wails about exponentially increasing dragons the number of dragons on the AH has NOT exponentially increased. Other things are driving prices down).

Dragon sales are the backbone of the economy. Again, an economy is NOT about 'what makes the most money' it's about 'what items cause the most transactions to take place'. Like, in the real world bread and butter make up a much larger portion of the economy than Yachts even though Yachts sell for a lot more, and Yacht-makers make a lot more than you average mom-and-pop bakery.

Because dragon prices are the back-bone of the economy, as dragons have fallen in price so have other items. The one exception to this is food -- and that's because lairs are filling up.

If there are no transactions in the game -- that is, all the money is earned from games and then is thrown into treasure sinks then there is no economy. None. Whatsoever. There ARE basically economy-free games out there that are social in nature (think 'farmville').

The ideas I proposed are not designed to significantly alter the economy, or to change it over to an entirely breeding-based economy. They're designed to create a tier at the top of the dragon market for hardcore breeders to play in -- like imps were about 3... 4 weeks ago.

(The imp dive has happened, by the by, not because of exponential imps -- but rather because all the players who can afford an imp already have one or two and increasingly full lairs, and the players with empty lairs couldn't afford 500k-800k dragons even though they want them. So, since there was such a big gap in 'new players' and 'old players' in terms of time there was no one coming up to the Could Afford An Imp at the right time... so even though the demand for imps was there, the means to buy them was not. The big gap in user registrations is more to blame for the top tiers of the breeding game collapsing than anything else.

I don't believe that reopening user registrations will drive imps back up where they were though, because now the perceived value of imps in the eyes of users has dropped. People will just stubbornly refuse to buy them when the prices go back up. And like you said. You can't force people to buy your dragons.

Which is why I believe NEW STUFF needs to be introduced that players will be A) mad for because it's so "cool" (people WILL pay out the nose for the "cool" factor. Think about how 1st gens are routinely worth 5x more than similar dragons that are not 1st gen) and B) is perceived as being WORTH those high prices because it's a status symbol and so "cool".)
I'm psyched for the Clan Scrolls! :D
I'm psyched for the Clan Scrolls! :D
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