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TOPIC | Dom - Average active exalters over time
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[size=4][b]Proposal[/b][/size] Instead of using a recent snapshot of the number of active clans, I suggest using a [b]recent snapshot of the number of clans that have exalted dragons[/b]. To reduce funneling abuse, the snapshot should involve [b]at least 4 weeks, probably more[/b]. Additionally, Irien made a great point that the [b]exact number of weeks should be hidden[/b], which would make funneling activities more difficult to plan. Depending on the Devs' discretion, the recent snapshot period could be 4-8 weeks or perhaps a longer running average. The longer the period, the lesser the effects of "funneling" to a small amount of exalters. (The period probably shouldn't be [i]too[/i] long, to reduce noise over time and database strain.) I believe that this system would require more work to abuse than an "opt in" towards Dominance or a "number of active exalters during that week" solution. Taking a longer average snapshot can capture regular exalting activities and large battles alike. This would also effectively act as "battle weariness" for flights pushing for consecutive weeks, because the expected amount of participation during a battle is higher, resulting in a higher number of recent active exalting clans for flights attempting consecutive Dominance. Under this system, flights would win if: a) Their users exalted more on average than their opponent and b) They receive more out-of-flight support at a 1:1 ratio than their opponent. [b]On Dominance funding with differing populations[/b] Although some donations may come from non-Dominance participants, a significant percentage of a flight's funding will come from people who are interested in Dominance, so a smaller flight would not necessarily incur a large disadvantage from lower available funds. Remember: a small flight with a low amount of Dominance participation should receive more benefits from a smaller "active exalters over time", reducing the amount of funding needed. [b]On available lair space[/b] In addition, the community has adopted the concept of "out-of-flight boarding", in which available lair spaces from non-participant flights can contribute to dragon storage; this allows smaller flights to expand their storage outside of their own lairs. I believe this system would reward the efforts of all flights and would not harm smaller flights that have made good progress in their Dominance efforts. Making Dominance more balanced could benefit the site by encouraging more large battles that reduce the active dragon population. [size=4][b]Reasons why the current system is insufficient[/b][/size] [url=http://www1.flightrising.com/forums/ann/411301]Battle weariness[/url] was implemented to reduce the chances that a single flight will conquer consecutive weeks. [quote][color=#b70000]If a Flight attains Dominance, Battle Weariness will kick in as the other Flights retaliate. While it will still be possible for that Flight to win in the next competition, it will be slightly harder than before. Exaltation credit will be reduced by 10% for the next tally, and will continue to stack for each consecutive win thereafter. We believe that this will help make Dominance exciting, versatile, and challenging.[/color][/quote] While the idea is sound in theory, there are a few issues in practice. [b]Flights do not attract the same amounts or types of players[/b] Due to aesthetics, lore, or other factors such as the percentage of human population that would play FR and how they identify with a flight, there is a large skew between the most and least popular flights that we continue to observe over time. As tracked in [url=http://www1.flightrising.com/forums/gde/1194822/1]this guide[/url], historically, flights like Wind, Shadow, and Arcane have been among the largest, while Earth and Fire have always been among the smallest. The absolute largest flight has changed slightly, and the mid-size flights may have shifted a little, but Earth and Fire have remained solidly smaller. The appeal of a flight can be a factor in the types of players that choose to move there. This can cause an active Dominance population to be skewed: A small flight could possibly attract a larger % of Dominance players to the extent that the small flight's exalting power is equal to a larger flight's exalting power even without a small-flight ratio adjustment. (While this is not necessarily true in Fire at the moment, it is currently true in Earth. I use Earth as an example, but Earth itself is not to blame; it just happens to be the flight that was primed for this situation due to several conditions.) If a small flight and a large flight have the same exalting power at a 1:1 ratio, then if we assign 3x more Dominance points towards the small flight's exalts, the small flight would require a ~67% penalty from battle weariness before their exalting power equals the larger flight's exalting power. That would require between 6 to 7 weeks of consecutive Dominance. For a flight receiving 5x more Dominance points than its opponent from ratio, the weariness would need to stack to 80% (100 * (1 - 1/5)), which involves 8 weeks of consecutive Dominance. Even a smaller multiplier of 2x would require 50%, or 5 weeks of consecutive Dominance, which no flight has achieved up-to-date. [b]Smaller flights receive higher funneling benefits from the current "buy" culture[/b] In the current day's battles, flights frequently acquire dragons from Raffles, Public Buys, and hiring Mercenary companies. This involves receiving dragons from non-participating flights. In a situation where a small flight battles a large flight, the amount of external support received is heavily tilted in favor of the smaller flight. In the past, when Flight Rising was smaller, it was difficult for small flights to acquire enough volunteer work to organize and staff such efforts. However, there's a "sweet spot" that has been reached recently thanks to increasing Flight Rising population. Dominance teams and volunteers only need a certain size to be optimal, and after that quota has been reached, adding more volunteers does not add a significant advantage. Currently, any flight has enough organizers and volunteers to benefit optimally from the receipt of out-of-flight support. With this disadvantage removed from smaller flights (which have less human resources), the current ratio system multiplies the Dominance points of smaller flights by a lot. If we compare recent out-of-flight raffle data to the values recorded in-flight, there have been cases where the out-of-flight support equalled or exceeded the amount exalted in-flight. (This makes sense, since there would be 9 non-participant flights in a battle between 2 flights.) The effect of OOF support is significant. [size=4][b]Drawbacks[/b][/size] It's possible that this system may place more of a focus on "high performers", discouraging the spirit of participation. Some flights may be able to react in a positive way by encouraging and guiding new participants, focusing as a community to rally OOF support, and directing their efforts to increase the flight's overall output together. I don't think that filtering out people who exalted under X amount would solve the problem, and I personally do not support that implementation. Anyone on the "low" end of that threshold would feel like an unwelcome participant, and I think the potential of issues from any side would continue. In a system involving a longer time period, hopefully users will adopt a more realistic attitude that some users will exalt for a living even if they do not participate heavily in Dominance. However, the risk of anti-casual-exalter sentiment exists and should be considered. [size=4][b]Summary[/b][/size] We should tweak the current Dominance ratio math to be based upon [b]number of clans that exalted recently over 4-8 weeks[/b] instead of "number of clans that were active recently". While I would prefer a much larger Dominance overhaul that introduces more engaging incentives to exalt, such a large change would be a long-term solution to the problem, which is not covered by this mid-term solution proposal. I believe that this suggestion would quickly help to reduce imbalance in the current Dominance scenario, making Dominance balance "good enough" before more significant changes are implemented in the future.
Proposal

Instead of using a recent snapshot of the number of active clans, I suggest using a recent snapshot of the number of clans that have exalted dragons. To reduce funneling abuse, the snapshot should involve at least 4 weeks, probably more. Additionally, Irien made a great point that the exact number of weeks should be hidden, which would make funneling activities more difficult to plan.

Depending on the Devs' discretion, the recent snapshot period could be 4-8 weeks or perhaps a longer running average. The longer the period, the lesser the effects of "funneling" to a small amount of exalters. (The period probably shouldn't be too long, to reduce noise over time and database strain.)

I believe that this system would require more work to abuse than an "opt in" towards Dominance or a "number of active exalters during that week" solution. Taking a longer average snapshot can capture regular exalting activities and large battles alike. This would also effectively act as "battle weariness" for flights pushing for consecutive weeks, because the expected amount of participation during a battle is higher, resulting in a higher number of recent active exalting clans for flights attempting consecutive Dominance.

Under this system, flights would win if: a) Their users exalted more on average than their opponent and b) They receive more out-of-flight support at a 1:1 ratio than their opponent.

On Dominance funding with differing populations

Although some donations may come from non-Dominance participants, a significant percentage of a flight's funding will come from people who are interested in Dominance, so a smaller flight would not necessarily incur a large disadvantage from lower available funds. Remember: a small flight with a low amount of Dominance participation should receive more benefits from a smaller "active exalters over time", reducing the amount of funding needed.

On available lair space

In addition, the community has adopted the concept of "out-of-flight boarding", in which available lair spaces from non-participant flights can contribute to dragon storage; this allows smaller flights to expand their storage outside of their own lairs.

I believe this system would reward the efforts of all flights and would not harm smaller flights that have made good progress in their Dominance efforts. Making Dominance more balanced could benefit the site by encouraging more large battles that reduce the active dragon population.

Reasons why the current system is insufficient

Battle weariness was implemented to reduce the chances that a single flight will conquer consecutive weeks.
Quote:
If a Flight attains Dominance, Battle Weariness will kick in as the other Flights retaliate. While it will still be possible for that Flight to win in the next competition, it will be slightly harder than before. Exaltation credit will be reduced by 10% for the next tally, and will continue to stack for each consecutive win thereafter. We believe that this will help make Dominance exciting, versatile, and challenging.

While the idea is sound in theory, there are a few issues in practice.

Flights do not attract the same amounts or types of players

Due to aesthetics, lore, or other factors such as the percentage of human population that would play FR and how they identify with a flight, there is a large skew between the most and least popular flights that we continue to observe over time.

As tracked in this guide, historically, flights like Wind, Shadow, and Arcane have been among the largest, while Earth and Fire have always been among the smallest. The absolute largest flight has changed slightly, and the mid-size flights may have shifted a little, but Earth and Fire have remained solidly smaller.

The appeal of a flight can be a factor in the types of players that choose to move there. This can cause an active Dominance population to be skewed:

A small flight could possibly attract a larger % of Dominance players to the extent that the small flight's exalting power is equal to a larger flight's exalting power even without a small-flight ratio adjustment. (While this is not necessarily true in Fire at the moment, it is currently true in Earth. I use Earth as an example, but Earth itself is not to blame; it just happens to be the flight that was primed for this situation due to several conditions.)

If a small flight and a large flight have the same exalting power at a 1:1 ratio, then if we assign 3x more Dominance points towards the small flight's exalts, the small flight would require a ~67% penalty from battle weariness before their exalting power equals the larger flight's exalting power. That would require between 6 to 7 weeks of consecutive Dominance. For a flight receiving 5x more Dominance points than its opponent from ratio, the weariness would need to stack to 80% (100 * (1 - 1/5)), which involves 8 weeks of consecutive Dominance. Even a smaller multiplier of 2x would require 50%, or 5 weeks of consecutive Dominance, which no flight has achieved up-to-date.

Smaller flights receive higher funneling benefits from the current "buy" culture

In the current day's battles, flights frequently acquire dragons from Raffles, Public Buys, and hiring Mercenary companies. This involves receiving dragons from non-participating flights.

In a situation where a small flight battles a large flight, the amount of external support received is heavily tilted in favor of the smaller flight. In the past, when Flight Rising was smaller, it was difficult for small flights to acquire enough volunteer work to organize and staff such efforts. However, there's a "sweet spot" that has been reached recently thanks to increasing Flight Rising population. Dominance teams and volunteers only need a certain size to be optimal, and after that quota has been reached, adding more volunteers does not add a significant advantage.

Currently, any flight has enough organizers and volunteers to benefit optimally from the receipt of out-of-flight support. With this disadvantage removed from smaller flights (which have less human resources), the current ratio system multiplies the Dominance points of smaller flights by a lot. If we compare recent out-of-flight raffle data to the values recorded in-flight, there have been cases where the out-of-flight support equalled or exceeded the amount exalted in-flight. (This makes sense, since there would be 9 non-participant flights in a battle between 2 flights.) The effect of OOF support is significant.

Drawbacks

It's possible that this system may place more of a focus on "high performers", discouraging the spirit of participation. Some flights may be able to react in a positive way by encouraging and guiding new participants, focusing as a community to rally OOF support, and directing their efforts to increase the flight's overall output together.

I don't think that filtering out people who exalted under X amount would solve the problem, and I personally do not support that implementation. Anyone on the "low" end of that threshold would feel like an unwelcome participant, and I think the potential of issues from any side would continue.

In a system involving a longer time period, hopefully users will adopt a more realistic attitude that some users will exalt for a living even if they do not participate heavily in Dominance. However, the risk of anti-casual-exalter sentiment exists and should be considered.

Summary

We should tweak the current Dominance ratio math to be based upon number of clans that exalted recently over 4-8 weeks instead of "number of clans that were active recently".

While I would prefer a much larger Dominance overhaul that introduces more engaging incentives to exalt, such a large change would be a long-term solution to the problem, which is not covered by this mid-term solution proposal. I believe that this suggestion would quickly help to reduce imbalance in the current Dominance scenario, making Dominance balance "good enough" before more significant changes are implemented in the future.
Bonsai pixels (tofu and tea motif) by miirshroom
@Sopheroo Less dom-active flights should receive a greater benefit from this system. Holidays would also involve a great amount of OOF support and less competition from other flights, so there shouldn't be a risk of a flight failing to earn its holiday.
@Sopheroo Less dom-active flights should receive a greater benefit from this system. Holidays would also involve a great amount of OOF support and less competition from other flights, so there shouldn't be a risk of a flight failing to earn its holiday.
Bonsai pixels (tofu and tea motif) by miirshroom
@sylvandyr

Yeah, I reread myself and I noticed that it didn't make much sense.

So, people wondering how Sylvandyr pinged me before I posted - I deleted my original post.
Quote:
We should tweak the current Dominance ratio math to be based upon number of recent active exalting clans over 4-8 weeks instead of "number of recent active clans".

This is still going to benefit flights with an heavy exalting culture - Earth, Water, Light and Plague, over flights who are less into it - Arcane and Wind, namely.

This isn't going to make a huge shift on who is a big player and who isn't. Really, if anything, it's going to make Earth, Water and Light even more unreachable than before, because they're always quasi-pushing.

@sylvandyr

Yeah, I reread myself and I noticed that it didn't make much sense.

So, people wondering how Sylvandyr pinged me before I posted - I deleted my original post.
Quote:
We should tweak the current Dominance ratio math to be based upon number of recent active exalting clans over 4-8 weeks instead of "number of recent active clans".

This is still going to benefit flights with an heavy exalting culture - Earth, Water, Light and Plague, over flights who are less into it - Arcane and Wind, namely.

This isn't going to make a huge shift on who is a big player and who isn't. Really, if anything, it's going to make Earth, Water and Light even more unreachable than before, because they're always quasi-pushing.

@Sopheroo Flights with smaller amounts of active exalters should receive a bigger bonus from the ratio.

The proposal is mainly to remove excessive bonuses so that, given the same amount of effect per user in a flight, the standings will reflect correctly.

If flights that are good at Dominance continue to be good at Dominance, it's a result of their hard work and refinements of their Dominance efforts.
@Sopheroo Flights with smaller amounts of active exalters should receive a bigger bonus from the ratio.

The proposal is mainly to remove excessive bonuses so that, given the same amount of effect per user in a flight, the standings will reflect correctly.

If flights that are good at Dominance continue to be good at Dominance, it's a result of their hard work and refinements of their Dominance efforts.
Bonsai pixels (tofu and tea motif) by miirshroom
@sylvandyr

It's not a matter of numbers though - it's a matter of culture!

Suppose that active exalters are...15% of a flight - more or less 5%. So, if Shadow was pushing against Earth - it's 9225 members, around that.


Because Earth is Earth, we'll go and say that 25% of its population are active exalters. That's still a lot less people than Shadow - a little over 4000.


There is just too much difference between flight population (Shadow is 5 times Earth Flight!) to use that as a calculation method anymore. The current way of doing dominance doesn't work, but your solution doesn't affect the game as much as we hope it does.


@sylvandyr

It's not a matter of numbers though - it's a matter of culture!

Suppose that active exalters are...15% of a flight - more or less 5%. So, if Shadow was pushing against Earth - it's 9225 members, around that.


Because Earth is Earth, we'll go and say that 25% of its population are active exalters. That's still a lot less people than Shadow - a little over 4000.


There is just too much difference between flight population (Shadow is 5 times Earth Flight!) to use that as a calculation method anymore. The current way of doing dominance doesn't work, but your solution doesn't affect the game as much as we hope it does.


@Sopheroo It would be really bad if this system handicapped Dom-savvy flights. That would be unfair to the Dom-savvy flights.

(Sorry, I edited my previous post for more clarification.)
@Sopheroo It would be really bad if this system handicapped Dom-savvy flights. That would be unfair to the Dom-savvy flights.

(Sorry, I edited my previous post for more clarification.)
Bonsai pixels (tofu and tea motif) by miirshroom
@sylvandyr

I think that we should completely do away with flight population numbers to take into account for dominance- because the extremes are too...extreme!

Earth is way too small, and Shadow is way too big - although Arcane is no better!

It worked well in 2014, where Shadow DID manage to win a conquest against Earth, but now, with Shadow being five times as big as Earth, it's pure insanity.

But, outside of tallying weariness for all twelve positions over a longer period of time, I can't think of a better idea
@sylvandyr

I think that we should completely do away with flight population numbers to take into account for dominance- because the extremes are too...extreme!

Earth is way too small, and Shadow is way too big - although Arcane is no better!

It worked well in 2014, where Shadow DID manage to win a conquest against Earth, but now, with Shadow being five times as big as Earth, it's pure insanity.

But, outside of tallying weariness for all twelve positions over a longer period of time, I can't think of a better idea
@Sopheroo I think you may have a misunderstanding on what I am proposing.

I propose that only active exalters for a time period (say, 4 weeks) are taken into account.

If Earth has 100 active exalters and Shadow has 100 active exalters, that's a 1:1 ratio. Then, the numbers only come down to how many points each active exalter contributes. (You need to factor in OOF support too.)

It's a significant improvement over the current system, where if Earth has 100 active exalters and Shadow has 100 active exalters, Earth gets a 5x multiplier for the same number of exalters.
@Sopheroo I think you may have a misunderstanding on what I am proposing.

I propose that only active exalters for a time period (say, 4 weeks) are taken into account.

If Earth has 100 active exalters and Shadow has 100 active exalters, that's a 1:1 ratio. Then, the numbers only come down to how many points each active exalter contributes. (You need to factor in OOF support too.)

It's a significant improvement over the current system, where if Earth has 100 active exalters and Shadow has 100 active exalters, Earth gets a 5x multiplier for the same number of exalters.
Bonsai pixels (tofu and tea motif) by miirshroom
@sylvandyr

Yeah, we're misunderstanding each other, as I'm using proportions, and you're using numbers.

The thing is that it's most likely that all flights have a closer PROPORTION of active exalters than a closer TOTAL of active exalters.

So, going with totals doesn't work for me, because the flights' population is way too different - even if only counting active accounts!


Really, it would have been interesting to implement this in 2014 or 2015, where the difference between flight population wasn't that huge. But now - I'm still feeling there isn't a fair way to deal with the massive difference we got.



@sylvandyr

Yeah, we're misunderstanding each other, as I'm using proportions, and you're using numbers.

The thing is that it's most likely that all flights have a closer PROPORTION of active exalters than a closer TOTAL of active exalters.

So, going with totals doesn't work for me, because the flights' population is way too different - even if only counting active accounts!


Really, it would have been interesting to implement this in 2014 or 2015, where the difference between flight population wasn't that huge. But now - I'm still feeling there isn't a fair way to deal with the massive difference we got.



@Sopheroo I imagine the database should just keep track if the number of accounts who earned Dominance points in the previous week(s), so proportions don't seem relevant.
@Sopheroo I imagine the database should just keep track if the number of accounts who earned Dominance points in the previous week(s), so proportions don't seem relevant.
Bonsai pixels (tofu and tea motif) by miirshroom
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