[quote name="Apocalyptichorse" date=2016-07-22 04:34:49]
I see, but then there still would be the issue that eventually these items will simply just be gone. Because they'll still be on banned accounts, on abandoned ones or with people that don't intend on selling them. Sure it'd prolong the issue but it'd not fix it, and due that the whole "work hard for it" argument also falls flat because well how can you work for something that's not available anymore?
Though like many can agree on, perhaps they are going to add the other fest stuff to the box as well however they aren't going to as of yet and only use this year's and upcoming year's stuff to play it safe and hammer out the kinks before introducing the rest. Mean we aren't going to get the box till next year and those of us that are pro-recycle don't want the sprites to flood the site like the bears did. However what we do want for our goals to remain achievable, not everyone can make 100k treasure a day or 1 mil per week. We all safe up at our own paces hence it'd be nice to know that once we do finally scrounged up enough for a sprite or armband or other apparel item that we can still get said thing and not worry about the price having tripled in amount or the item just being gone all together.
[/quote]
Well, the thing is: I don't think it's an issue so there's no need to fix it. Personally, I see no difference between all the retired items and I have the same attitude to them. Like, if I joined earlier I could buy KS item. It's too expensive for me now so I don't go for it, and once they are all gone I won't be even tempted anymore. If I joined now, I would think the same of Light Sprite - heck, I DID think so, right up until I realized that I can actually afford it. If someone joins 4 years from now, sprites would be like KS to us now, and everyone seems fine with KS being unavailable, the real money issue aside.
Thus I'm more like "work hard now while you still can get one" as I realize it won't be like that forever. And yes, it causes additional incentive to grind a lot and pay a lot, simply because if you don't buy it for 50kg now, you won't be able to buy it at all tomorrow, no matter how much you have.
I'm sorry, but I prefer the stability of my investments based on admins' words to some virtual fairness that doesn't even seem fair to nearly half of the people. Like, to me it sounds fair that I don't get things that were distributed while I wasn't a part of the game yet, and it's on me to look for them and get them if it's still possible, not the system's fault. Idk, all games I've played before had stuff like that, thus I see no problem here either.
Apocalyptichorse wrote on 2016-07-22:
I see, but then there still would be the issue that eventually these items will simply just be gone. Because they'll still be on banned accounts, on abandoned ones or with people that don't intend on selling them. Sure it'd prolong the issue but it'd not fix it, and due that the whole "work hard for it" argument also falls flat because well how can you work for something that's not available anymore?
Though like many can agree on, perhaps they are going to add the other fest stuff to the box as well however they aren't going to as of yet and only use this year's and upcoming year's stuff to play it safe and hammer out the kinks before introducing the rest. Mean we aren't going to get the box till next year and those of us that are pro-recycle don't want the sprites to flood the site like the bears did. However what we do want for our goals to remain achievable, not everyone can make 100k treasure a day or 1 mil per week. We all safe up at our own paces hence it'd be nice to know that once we do finally scrounged up enough for a sprite or armband or other apparel item that we can still get said thing and not worry about the price having tripled in amount or the item just being gone all together.
Well, the thing is: I don't think it's an issue so there's no need to fix it. Personally, I see no difference between all the retired items and I have the same attitude to them. Like, if I joined earlier I could buy KS item. It's too expensive for me now so I don't go for it, and once they are all gone I won't be even tempted anymore. If I joined now, I would think the same of Light Sprite - heck, I DID think so, right up until I realized that I can actually afford it. If someone joins 4 years from now, sprites would be like KS to us now, and everyone seems fine with KS being unavailable, the real money issue aside.
Thus I'm more like "work hard now while you still can get one" as I realize it won't be like that forever. And yes, it causes additional incentive to grind a lot and pay a lot, simply because if you don't buy it for 50kg now, you won't be able to buy it at all tomorrow, no matter how much you have.
I'm sorry, but I prefer the stability of my investments based on admins' words to some virtual fairness that doesn't even seem fair to nearly half of the people. Like, to me it sounds fair that I don't get things that were distributed while I wasn't a part of the game yet, and it's on me to look for them and get them if it's still possible, not the system's fault. Idk, all games I've played before had stuff like that, thus I see no problem here either.
Because kS is a different thing, the money people paid for those is what made FR possible, not to mention there are legal issues tied to them that'd cause the staff to get into hot water were they to re-release the KS items. Re-releasing the holiday items however, well nothing tied to them, staff wouldn't get in trouble if they re-released them. KS was also a one time only event while we celebrate the festivals each year and well the festivals have changed very little. But in the end all we have to do is get some pixel currency and trade it in for a pixel item, that's it. Only reason people inflate the sprites and other fest items so much is well, because they can.
It's not the fault of others that they are unable to grind up the required treasure or lack the money to buy gems, so then how is it fair to them? Nobody is asking for hand outs here, or to have first year fest stuff flood the site. nobody is unwilling to work for them, but like I said many just can't keep up with the inflation and we can't expect people will remain selling the prizes they currently are now
Except with investments the idea of that is that you (general you in this case) sell off the item for profit, but if you buy it too keep or you can't sell it because the prize turns off most potential buyers then it's not an investment. And more importantly investments are never 100% secure, they never have been.
I suppose that's a bit more of a personal thing, I've only been on sites where retired items caused noting more then issues and drama so in my opinion everything that the staff is able to unretire without getting into legal trouble they should unretire, but in the end it's their decision I'm aware they are saying no now but it's obviously not a definite no. If it was well then they wouldn't put out the idea of the box, even though all it does is pretty much screw everyone over because people who'd like to invest using the future holiday items won't be able to because it's not going to be retired. So if anything I got a feeling that not now but somewhere down the line they're going to unretire all fest stuff I could be wrong course but we'll just have to wait and see
Because kS is a different thing, the money people paid for those is what made FR possible, not to mention there are legal issues tied to them that'd cause the staff to get into hot water were they to re-release the KS items. Re-releasing the holiday items however, well nothing tied to them, staff wouldn't get in trouble if they re-released them. KS was also a one time only event while we celebrate the festivals each year and well the festivals have changed very little. But in the end all we have to do is get some pixel currency and trade it in for a pixel item, that's it. Only reason people inflate the sprites and other fest items so much is well, because they can.
It's not the fault of others that they are unable to grind up the required treasure or lack the money to buy gems, so then how is it fair to them? Nobody is asking for hand outs here, or to have first year fest stuff flood the site. nobody is unwilling to work for them, but like I said many just can't keep up with the inflation and we can't expect people will remain selling the prizes they currently are now
Except with investments the idea of that is that you (general you in this case) sell off the item for profit, but if you buy it too keep or you can't sell it because the prize turns off most potential buyers then it's not an investment. And more importantly investments are never 100% secure, they never have been.
I suppose that's a bit more of a personal thing, I've only been on sites where retired items caused noting more then issues and drama so in my opinion everything that the staff is able to unretire without getting into legal trouble they should unretire, but in the end it's their decision I'm aware they are saying no now but it's obviously not a definite no. If it was well then they wouldn't put out the idea of the box, even though all it does is pretty much screw everyone over because people who'd like to invest using the future holiday items won't be able to because it's not going to be retired. So if anything I got a feeling that not now but somewhere down the line they're going to unretire all fest stuff I could be wrong course but we'll just have to wait and see
Is it actually possible to make a legal case if the KS items are rereleased? Was there any type of contract involved at signing up for backing, can the purchases be traced back, are there any copies of the admins' statements saved anywhere? I'm not a lawyer but have there been any legal cases like that before? I'm genuinely interested as people keep mentioning this, and in our country it's hard to file a solid legal case based on game stuff, and those are usually done only if a direct money issue is involved (like, someone paid for premium currency but never received it and was then banned from the game under some pretense). Here the money was paid and the goods were received, no signed up documents were involved, and there's no actual harm involved except "but they promised! :( ", just like with rereleasing festival stuff, so I'm not even sure what the basis of the case and the legal consequences should be.
I'm really curious now tbh XD
[quote]if you (...) can't sell it because the prize turns off most potential buyers then it's not an investment[/quote]
Nah, you don't really need lots of potential buyers, you only need one. Thus it doesn't matter if only one person on the whole site can pay 100kg for the stuff you own if that one person wants to make a deal with you, and you have only one thing anyway so you won't be able to sell one to everyone who wants it. And quite a lot of people here have dozens and even hundreds of thousands of gems to throw at someone who has something they need, so a pool of buyers is not that small. Just check the KS sales, the amount of pure currency offered there is staggering.
Is it actually possible to make a legal case if the KS items are rereleased? Was there any type of contract involved at signing up for backing, can the purchases be traced back, are there any copies of the admins' statements saved anywhere? I'm not a lawyer but have there been any legal cases like that before? I'm genuinely interested as people keep mentioning this, and in our country it's hard to file a solid legal case based on game stuff, and those are usually done only if a direct money issue is involved (like, someone paid for premium currency but never received it and was then banned from the game under some pretense). Here the money was paid and the goods were received, no signed up documents were involved, and there's no actual harm involved except "but they promised! :( ", just like with rereleasing festival stuff, so I'm not even sure what the basis of the case and the legal consequences should be.
I'm really curious now tbh XD
Quote:
if you (...) can't sell it because the prize turns off most potential buyers then it's not an investment
Nah, you don't really need lots of potential buyers, you only need one. Thus it doesn't matter if only one person on the whole site can pay 100kg for the stuff you own if that one person wants to make a deal with you, and you have only one thing anyway so you won't be able to sell one to everyone who wants it. And quite a lot of people here have dozens and even hundreds of thousands of gems to throw at someone who has something they need, so a pool of buyers is not that small. Just check the KS sales, the amount of pure currency offered there is staggering.
Quote:
Is it actually possible to make a legal case if the KS items are rereleased? Was there any type of contract involved at signing up for backing, can the purchases be traced back, are there any copies of the admins' statements saved anywhere? I'm not a lawyer but have there been any legal cases like that before? I'm genuinely interested as people keep mentioning this, and in our country it's hard to file a solid legal case based on game stuff, and those are usually done only if a direct money issue is involved (like, someone paid for premium currency but never received it and was then banned from the game under some pretense). Here the money was paid and the goods were received, no signed up documents were involved, and there's no actual harm involved except "but they promised! :( ", just like with rereleasing festival stuff, so I'm not even sure what the basis of the case and the legal consequences should be.
I'm really curious now tbh XD
I'll admit, I am curious too. I would like to know the terms, conditions, promises, and whatnot surrounding the whole KS fundraising since I wasn't here for that.
I know we tend to mince words a lot in this particular debate (especially the word "promise"), but I am curious too--not just for this debate, but for the knowledge of it all.
Quote:
Is it actually possible to make a legal case if the KS items are rereleased? Was there any type of contract involved at signing up for backing, can the purchases be traced back, are there any copies of the admins' statements saved anywhere? I'm not a lawyer but have there been any legal cases like that before? I'm genuinely interested as people keep mentioning this, and in our country it's hard to file a solid legal case based on game stuff, and those are usually done only if a direct money issue is involved (like, someone paid for premium currency but never received it and was then banned from the game under some pretense). Here the money was paid and the goods were received, no signed up documents were involved, and there's no actual harm involved except "but they promised! :( ", just like with rereleasing festival stuff, so I'm not even sure what the basis of the case and the legal consequences should be.
I'm really curious now tbh XD
I'll admit, I am curious too. I would like to know the terms, conditions, promises, and whatnot surrounding the whole KS fundraising since I wasn't here for that.
I know we tend to mince words a lot in this particular debate (especially the word "promise"), but I am curious too--not just for this debate, but for the knowledge of it all.
Pings are disabled.
If writers are supposed to "show not tell," why are we called "storytellers" and not "storyshow-ers"?
[quote name="gemajgall" date=2016-07-22 20:04:58]
Quote:
Is it actually possible to make a legal case if the KS items are rereleased? Was there any type of contract involved at signing up for backing, can the purchases be traced back, are there any copies of the admins' statements saved anywhere? I'm not a lawyer but have there been any legal cases like that before? I'm genuinely interested as people keep mentioning this, and in our country it's hard to file a solid legal case based on game stuff, and those are usually done only if a direct money issue is involved (like, someone paid for premium currency but never received it and was then banned from the game under some pretense). Here the money was paid and the goods were received, no signed up documents were involved, and there's no actual harm involved except "but they promised! :( ", just like with rereleasing festival stuff, so I'm not even sure what the basis of the case and the legal consequences should be.
I'm really curious now tbh XD
I'll admit, I am curious too. I would like to know the terms, conditions, promises, and whatnot surrounding the whole KS fundraising since I wasn't here for that.
I know we tend to mince words a lot in this particular debate (especially the word "promise"), but I am curious too--not just for this debate, but for the knowledge of it all.
[/quote]
It might actually have to do with the Kickstarter itself. I thought I saw somewhere a while ago that Kickstarter itself places terms and conditions on the projects you can use for it (I think it was in regards to using a KS to hire new artists or coders or something on that order). So it might not necessarily be a contract between the KS backers and FR staff, but rather Kickstarter and the FR staff. But it would be interesting to know.
Edit: Sorry forgot some things. I meant that KS places terms and limits on the projects that can be used, and the incentives given. So it could be Kickstarter that says that items given out during the KS period are exclusive to that period. But I simply don't know, I hadn't heard of kickstarter before I came to Flight Rising.
gemajgall wrote on 2016-07-22:
Quote:
Is it actually possible to make a legal case if the KS items are rereleased? Was there any type of contract involved at signing up for backing, can the purchases be traced back, are there any copies of the admins' statements saved anywhere? I'm not a lawyer but have there been any legal cases like that before? I'm genuinely interested as people keep mentioning this, and in our country it's hard to file a solid legal case based on game stuff, and those are usually done only if a direct money issue is involved (like, someone paid for premium currency but never received it and was then banned from the game under some pretense). Here the money was paid and the goods were received, no signed up documents were involved, and there's no actual harm involved except "but they promised! :( ", just like with rereleasing festival stuff, so I'm not even sure what the basis of the case and the legal consequences should be.
I'm really curious now tbh XD
I'll admit, I am curious too. I would like to know the terms, conditions, promises, and whatnot surrounding the whole KS fundraising since I wasn't here for that.
I know we tend to mince words a lot in this particular debate (especially the word "promise"), but I am curious too--not just for this debate, but for the knowledge of it all.
It might actually have to do with the Kickstarter itself. I thought I saw somewhere a while ago that Kickstarter itself places terms and conditions on the projects you can use for it (I think it was in regards to using a KS to hire new artists or coders or something on that order). So it might not necessarily be a contract between the KS backers and FR staff, but rather Kickstarter and the FR staff. But it would be interesting to know.
Edit: Sorry forgot some things. I meant that KS places terms and limits on the projects that can be used, and the incentives given. So it could be Kickstarter that says that items given out during the KS period are exclusive to that period. But I simply don't know, I hadn't heard of kickstarter before I came to Flight Rising.
[quote name="Jemadar" date=2016-07-22 20:44:48]
[quote name="gemajgall" date=2016-07-22 20:04:58]
[Quote]
Is it actually possible to make a legal case if the KS items are rereleased? Was there any type of contract involved at signing up for backing, can the purchases be traced back, are there any copies of the admins' statements saved anywhere? I'm not a lawyer but have there been any legal cases like that before? I'm genuinely interested as people keep mentioning this, and in our country it's hard to file a solid legal case based on game stuff, and those are usually done only if a direct money issue is involved (like, someone paid for premium currency but never received it and was then banned from the game under some pretense). Here the money was paid and the goods were received, no signed up documents were involved, and there's no actual harm involved except "but they promised! :( ", just like with rereleasing festival stuff, so I'm not even sure what the basis of the case and the legal consequences should be.
I'm really curious now tbh XD[/quote]
I'll admit, I am curious too. I would like to know the terms, conditions, promises, and whatnot surrounding the whole KS fundraising since I wasn't here for that.
I know we tend to mince words a lot in this particular debate (especially the word "promise"), but I am curious too--not just for this debate, but for the knowledge of it all.
[/quote]
It might actually have to do with the Kickstarter itself. I thought I saw somewhere a while ago that Kickstarter itself places terms and conditions on the projects you can use for it (I think it was in regards to using a KS to hire new artists or coders or something on that order). So it might not necessarily be a contract between the KS backers and FR staff, but rather Kickstarter and the FR staff. But it would be interesting to know.
Edit: Sorry forgot some things. I meant that KS places terms and limits on the projects that can be used, and the incentives given. So it could be Kickstarter that says that items given out during the KS period are exclusive to that period. But I simply don't know, I hadn't heard of kickstarter before I came to Flight Rising.
[/quote]
[url=https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/stormlightworkshop/flight-rising-0/description]Here's the kickstarter [/url]
While I for sure don't have any legal knowledge, the fact that it's all labeled as "exclusive," "unique," and "kickstarter-only" makes me think someone would have a decent shot if it came to something like that
Jemadar wrote on 2016-07-22:
gemajgall wrote on 2016-07-22:
Quote:
Is it actually possible to make a legal case if the KS items are rereleased? Was there any type of contract involved at signing up for backing, can the purchases be traced back, are there any copies of the admins' statements saved anywhere? I'm not a lawyer but have there been any legal cases like that before? I'm genuinely interested as people keep mentioning this, and in our country it's hard to file a solid legal case based on game stuff, and those are usually done only if a direct money issue is involved (like, someone paid for premium currency but never received it and was then banned from the game under some pretense). Here the money was paid and the goods were received, no signed up documents were involved, and there's no actual harm involved except "but they promised! :( ", just like with rereleasing festival stuff, so I'm not even sure what the basis of the case and the legal consequences should be.
I'm really curious now tbh XD
I'll admit, I am curious too. I would like to know the terms, conditions, promises, and whatnot surrounding the whole KS fundraising since I wasn't here for that.
I know we tend to mince words a lot in this particular debate (especially the word "promise"), but I am curious too--not just for this debate, but for the knowledge of it all.
It might actually have to do with the Kickstarter itself. I thought I saw somewhere a while ago that Kickstarter itself places terms and conditions on the projects you can use for it (I think it was in regards to using a KS to hire new artists or coders or something on that order). So it might not necessarily be a contract between the KS backers and FR staff, but rather Kickstarter and the FR staff. But it would be interesting to know.
Edit: Sorry forgot some things. I meant that KS places terms and limits on the projects that can be used, and the incentives given. So it could be Kickstarter that says that items given out during the KS period are exclusive to that period. But I simply don't know, I hadn't heard of kickstarter before I came to Flight Rising.
Here's the kickstarter
While I for sure don't have any legal knowledge, the fact that it's all labeled as "exclusive," "unique," and "kickstarter-only" makes me think someone would have a decent shot if it came to something like that
This is how KS describes the rewards given out: Rewards are a creator's chance to share a piece of their project with their backer community. Typically, these are one-of-a-kind experiences, limited editions, or copies of the creative work being produced.
I'm currently plowing trough the TOU:
https://www.kickstarter.com/terms-of-use/oct2012
haven't found anything in regards of legal bindings but pretty sure there are some, I can't imagine there aren't any.
but yeah the biggest difference remains the fact you had to pay a few bucks in order to get a bonefiend or cloudy wings, while for the fest stuff we aren't required to pay a single penny to obtain em -shrugs- Little side note, thundercrack soon eeeeeh new golbin! they are def my favorite along the sprites
This is how KS describes the rewards given out: Rewards are a creator's chance to share a piece of their project with their backer community. Typically, these are one-of-a-kind experiences, limited editions, or copies of the creative work being produced.
I'm currently plowing trough the TOU:
https://www.kickstarter.com/terms-of-use/oct2012
haven't found anything in regards of legal bindings but pretty sure there are some, I can't imagine there aren't any.
but yeah the biggest difference remains the fact you had to pay a few bucks in order to get a bonefiend or cloudy wings, while for the fest stuff we aren't required to pay a single penny to obtain em -shrugs- Little side note, thundercrack soon eeeeeh new golbin! they are def my favorite along the sprites
Mmm... can you launch an additional kickstarter? I'm not familiar with this practice, alas, and I haven't found that info by briefly browsing...
[quote] thundercrack soon eeeeeh new golbin! they are def my favorite along the sprites[/quote]
I'm really fond of acolytes personally, and I use them more than sprites on my dragons, but goblin looked great too! :D Can't wait to see more of them.
Mmm... can you launch an additional kickstarter? I'm not familiar with this practice, alas, and I haven't found that info by briefly browsing...
Quote:
thundercrack soon eeeeeh new golbin! they are def my favorite along the sprites
I'm really fond of acolytes personally, and I use them more than sprites on my dragons, but goblin looked great too! :D Can't wait to see more of them.
I think if they were to launch another project it;d have to be for something else, mean the project to get FR of the ground was completed. so they can't really do that again, and they probably would make new kS items instead of re-using the old ones suppose best way of finding out is to ask the staff themselves.
I didn't like the acolytes a lot, the ice one was pretty cool looking though. Bears....couldn't care any less about those, the goblins are the first fest familiars aside the sprites I'm actually excited for to have. Having my flight reps rock the goblins till I get the last 4 remaining sprites I need. (need 9 more items from the first year round so close yet so far away -sighs- )
I think if they were to launch another project it;d have to be for something else, mean the project to get FR of the ground was completed. so they can't really do that again, and they probably would make new kS items instead of re-using the old ones suppose best way of finding out is to ask the staff themselves.
I didn't like the acolytes a lot, the ice one was pretty cool looking though. Bears....couldn't care any less about those, the goblins are the first fest familiars aside the sprites I'm actually excited for to have. Having my flight reps rock the goblins till I get the last 4 remaining sprites I need. (need 9 more items from the first year round so close yet so far away -sighs- )
[quote name="Valemora" date=2016-07-23 04:28:06]
Mmm... can you launch an additional kickstarter? I'm not familiar with this practice, alas, and I haven't found that info by briefly browsing...
[quote] thundercrack soon eeeeeh new golbin! they are def my favorite along the sprites[/quote]
I'm really fond of acolytes personally, and I use them more than sprites on my dragons, but goblin looked great too! :D Can't wait to see more of them.
[/quote]
Again this is hearsay and my bad memory, but I think Flight Rising COULD start a new kickstarter, but it couldn't be for the same thing, and I think it could only be for a project, not something like hiring new artists etc.. but rather like, say they wanted to launch a huge complicated project that requires new servers and they needed money for the servers, they might be able to launch a KS for that. I also think someone said that the rewards needed to be different? IE they couldn't launch a second KS and give out the same rewards.
BUT, I don't really know. As I said, I never really got into KS and hadn't heard of it before this site.
Valemora wrote on 2016-07-23:
Mmm... can you launch an additional kickstarter? I'm not familiar with this practice, alas, and I haven't found that info by briefly browsing...
Quote:
thundercrack soon eeeeeh new golbin! they are def my favorite along the sprites
I'm really fond of acolytes personally, and I use them more than sprites on my dragons, but goblin looked great too! :D Can't wait to see more of them.
Again this is hearsay and my bad memory, but I think Flight Rising COULD start a new kickstarter, but it couldn't be for the same thing, and I think it could only be for a project, not something like hiring new artists etc.. but rather like, say they wanted to launch a huge complicated project that requires new servers and they needed money for the servers, they might be able to launch a KS for that. I also think someone said that the rewards needed to be different? IE they couldn't launch a second KS and give out the same rewards.
BUT, I don't really know. As I said, I never really got into KS and hadn't heard of it before this site.
