General Discussion

@CrazyRedFire
It's tied between Grell and Undertaker.
I love the Shinigami society and it's lore and i hope we find out more about them (even a spinoff would be nice).

@WindChimes For me its those two plus Sebastian! But it would be really neat to have a spin off series about the reapers! Maybe Yana will do that once Black butler is finished, although I think she still has a lot to add to the series yet.

Do you have any theories about what's going on with Lizzy right now?

@WindChimes (Pinging you to sift through my silly ideas too :P) Another Hetalian~ I also came into Black Butler right after Hetalia xD @CrazyRedFire BAHAHA Puppy Sebastian. It reminds me of that vine where someone threw a stick and the dog brought back an entire tree (well...it tried to. It leapt up and was trying to fetch a branch lol). He fetched the whole tree, aka he killed all the corpses. Although I'm curious, if UT uses corpses...wouldn't they...you know, absolutely reek of decay? Also you'd think Sebastian would be able to smell something like that? LOL Yeah, agreement. Although, again, Seb wearing a rosary and a cross ala shouldn't that [I]hurt[/I] a demon? (The true comedy was him being a Reverend in the Murder arc xD). Also Agares (Johann) reminded me soooo much of Claude in terms of looks, just slap some glasses on him :P Well, again, the historical incorrectness of Green Witch could have just been explained in three panels. [img]https://67.media.tumblr.com/6a2ab44fc08e3dbc6141c478d262bb06/tumblr_inline_ocbhmwa7Eh1tpb4it_540.png[/img] If one of the Germans had a contract with a demon (or whatever species Othello's suspect is) then a tank and the types of guns could make sense. Mmmm but his eyes change. And they're blue, to boot, not the standard chartreuse green all other reapers have. Not to mention the dual ring isn't done the exact way a reaper's are, thus why I mention potentially only half-reaper (or less than half, if the bloodline from his reaper ancestor is far enough away) [img]http://67.media.tumblr.com/6b5e2f340b2395bd729e5f1249669b49/tumblr_inline_nzkhacQLbl1rbthts_500.png[/img][img]http://static.zerochan.net/Kuroshitsuji.full.1778582.jpg[/img] Although it wouldn't surprise me in the slightest if, yes, Sebastian is playing with his food again xD Cheeky...banana. A friend and I also tossed back in forth that IF there was another showdown between Undertaker and Sebastian (and Grell) in this arc, how would Othello play it off. She thought he may bail and run away back to the reaper realm since he's a wimp; she also suggested he may try to fight UT, because his efforts wouldn't do much anyway in the case they were aligned. I brought up that if Othello decided to reveal an alliance with Undertaker (or if it came out accidentally) that he would become a handicap. Elaboration: In the Campania arc, Undertaker didn't really have a 'handicap' that slowed him down (sometimes I'll argue that his over confidence and pride led to those times where he did almost get hit) whereas Grell gets hindered by rage and being struck in their face, Ronald has not learned how to get around without his glasses, and Sebastian was crippled by having to also protect Ciel while following his orders. IF Othello were to flip-flop sides during a fight sequence, Undertaker may end up with a handicap, that is, if he wants to keep the little one around. Between defending himself and trying to protect Othello (who, again, claims to be miserable at fighting) he might not do as well as he had in Campania and Weston (where he only had to immediately worry about himself). I personally am neutral towards the 2CT. There's a lot of ways to interpret different scenes and I can see the validity of both the 2CT and the non-2C theories. All theories bring up excellent points, so I neither agree nor disagree with the 2CT. However, I feel that asides from the cage & alter thing, there's other solid evidence when Undertaker was with 'Ciel'. The bed posts and curtain of where UT was is different from Ciel's bed and curtain in his manor. Sebastian would be able to tell/sense if Ciel had been moved and barged in probably spurring another fight sequence, which didn't happen. That, I feel, is the only thing the "anti-2C" theorists have not been able to explain in a way that makes sense yet. As well as the fact that with 120, UT is holding a small child's hand in his frame - the other frames of the other characters seem to be real-time, in which our Ciel is at his manor very much alert and moving around, not tucked into bed. I...quite am not a fan of Ciel or Sebastian and find the reaper much more intriguing, so any theories I have mostly regard them, apologies ;; I do love how each female character is strong willed. None of them are damsels in distress, each is capable of beating someone down in their own way. Lizzy's got her swords are badassery, Siegliende may not be able to walk but she's not a 'useless female character' by any means, Nina and Frances are the only other two I can remember who are able to verbally wound Sebastian/wound his pride/look him dead in the eye and tell him off, Madam Red (while mentally unstable) took shit from no one. More empowered women pls and thank.

@SilverDeath Hmm I never noticed Bravat's eyes before... you may be on to something with him. We haven't seen much of him and I haven't been able to scrutinize his character for awhile but his do have a sort of double ring. Maybe he's something else supernatural? He could be part reaper and that would be interesting. I love the reapers. But then that makes me wonder why he was pulled into this blood star gig thing. I'm still undecided about Othello though. We really don't know much about him either and I can't really see UT working with anyone else.......unless he needs something from the reapers that he can't get any longer (because he's retired). UT has always struck me as a lone wolf character but there might be something more going on with him. Othello would be a drain in a fight, if he's telling the truth about his combat skills that is. I'm waiting for more info about him. There is a lot of evidence for both theories (2CT and no 2CT) but the reason I believe it is because I came up with the theory on my own first and then did a little research and found out it was a well known fan theory and I'm typically very good at guessing fictional plot lines. (its the role player in me I think). I've ruined a lot of books for myself by thinking to much about them before finishing them Dx So I trust my instincts when it comes to these things. Also, to me, Yana has already showed us that there are two Ciels in the circus arc [img]http://pm1.narvii.com/6066/e04e4868a3690c9b29c7334674c643d42292ffff_hq.jpg[/img][img]http://images5.fanpop.com/image/photos/30900000/double-ciel-O-o-kuroshitsuji-30940002-352-500.jpg[/img] There's clearly a boy who looks exactly like our Ciel on the alter that is [i]very[/i] dead and another who looks like our Ciel who is not dead and in a cage. Plus every time Ciel says something like "I am Ciel Phantomhive." or "I am the head of the Phantomhive family." literally Sebastian is in the next panel snickering and saying something like "and you told me not to lie but you seem perfect at it." Also in this next scene, everyone else was a real person in his life. I don't see why the second Ciel wouldn't be a real person too. People do argue that it could be a personification of his innocence but idk. I think Ciel has always had a darkness in him. Its the only thing that explains why he'd make that deal solely to avenge himself a not his family too. [img]http://www.mangapartay.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/07/Black-Butler-Kuroshitsuji-95-Ciel-Running-To-Sebastian.jpg[/img] But I degrees, apologies, and yes that bedroom scene is another thing that adds on to my conviction of the theory. ((Also did you know that UT has never once called Ceil by his name in the whole manga? I find that suspicious.)) I have never been a fan of Ciel per say and especially not since the circus arc. I really hated what he did in the end and that really turned me away from him as a character (Although I do understand what Yana was doing with him in showing that he was not the villain-catching kid we all believed before hand. But.... he has since grown on me (a little) because he can be a little devil and he can make me laugh when he gets vindictive against people who deserve it (like that angel faced kid in the Weston arc. Oh that kid needed to burn and I cheered Ciel on there.) But Sebastian..... I will not deny it. I love him to death. He is a beautiful demon and he's made me laugh in pretty much every chapter of the manga. I admire that in a character because its hard to make me laugh. Plus I just love his cheekiness and overall vibe of "I am playing this game but you are still my food in the end." Like he never tries to hide that part of the deal and I like that about him. Yeah I like all the strong-willed female characters too. I miss Madame Red. She was great and one of my favorites but she was a great entrance for Grell (who I see as a pseudo female character even tho she/he's technically a guy). I think the characters are really fantastic overall and the reaper idea is brilliant in her series. I do hope they get a spin-off series!

I'm not certain that the Undertaker will have a large involvement in the Blue Sect arc, mainly because what the Sect is doing doesn't exactly match up with what the Undertaker has been trying to do in the past couple of arcs that he's been a primary antagonist.

Bravat is collecting different types of blood, which according to Sieglinde might be for making progress in the (at the time) risky process of blood transfusion. In both his arcs, the Undertaker has been reviving corpses, which already have their blood in them as shown by every scene in which they are slaughtered. I don't know what the Undertaker would need the four types of blood for, unless he thinks that transfusing blood into his corpses would make them last longer, though he was making considerable progress with memory transplanting in Weston.

If the Undertaker is involved at all, he might play a smaller part and not be, like, the guy who's pulling all the operation's strings this time. Bravat might be acting on his own or with a little prompting from the shinigami, but then again, we might be overdue for another starring role with the Undertaker since he didn't appear at all in the Green Witch arc save for the bit at the end where he's in Ciel's bedroom.

I'd like it to be something that doesn't involve the Undertaker as a chief antagonist, though. I think it'd be interesting to explore another type of supernatural threat than the shinigami, which have been involved in pretty much everything since the beginning, because I think it would be great for world-building and future plots to prove that more supernatural beings than demons and shinigami exist. How would these creatures fit into the divine/infernal hierarchy? Would they even be in the divine/infernal hierarchy?

@CrazyRedFire

I had seen on Tumblr about this, so not entirely my train of thought here: corpses cannot continue to make their own blood. They're dead, and in most medias a corpse is reanimated through mocked up brain activity. Undertaker's corpses are reanimated through manipulation of their memories/Cinematic Records (so to a slight degree, still brain activity). Blood needs to flow to the brain to function, and with his Dolls having more complex trains of thought, it may make sense they'd need blood to function better/more realistically to a living human. So, going back to my first post here, Undertaker could be using Bravat. Make Bravat do all the work about the blood and blood types for his Dolls while providing a false trade off/vision for Bravat in return. Thus far it seems that his Dolls are not affected by blood loss, which could invalidate this theory.

My go-to theory about Othello and Undertaker is that they once had a close relationship or a mentor-apprentice relationship. While Undertaker appears to have been Collections and Othello is in Forensics, Undertaker is a legendary reaper and may have been free to move departments at his leisure without much penalty. So a mentor-apprentice relationship is plausible but less likely. I do feel that they possibly could have known each other or been connected through a large event, however. In the Campania, Undertaker mentioned it had been roughly 50 years since someone called him a grim reaper/Shinigami, while in 115/116 Othello mentioned it was roughly 50 years since he had last been in the human realm, as well as it's rare for a Forensics reaper to be dispatched to the field. While it's been 50 years since someone called UT a Shinigami, it doesn't necessarily mean he's been retired/deserted for 50 years. He could have been retired for three centuries for all we know, but people in his circle still called him a Shinigami up to a certain point. Anyhow, I feel like something happened around the late 1830/early 1840s. Both their '50 year' statements seem linked to me. If the two were close, Othello could be Undertaker's eyes and ears within the Dispatch, telling him what's going on or what's being planned so UT can plot in advance.

The way I personally looked at the scene with Ciel having his dream/nightmare while he was sick was he was talking to his self/inner conscious/inner self. But I can totally accept and understand this, as well. I thought it odd about the table & alter thing as you've shown above, and had earlier in the series thought it was simply artist error, now not so much. Perhaps it started out as a mistake but Yana reads our theories and likes them xD

Undertaker has never called anyone by their name, actually, so it's hardly suspicious at all to me. The only person he has ever even remotely named is William (of which I strongly believe that there was a mentor-apprentice relationship between them). It’s always “bloke,” “Butler,” “earl,” “your ancestor,” “my lord/lady,” “fellow,” etc. etc.

Sebastian’s snark and good looks is about all that he has going for him in my eyes. I enjoy more complex characters who are hard to figure out (Othello, Bravat, William, Undertaker) or a character who has a goal unknown to us and despite the omnipotent view as a reader we won’t know what they want until later (Madam Red, Undertaker). Figuring out the motives of a character, what drives them, why they are the way they are, is what draws me. We already know most of Ciel’s past, we already know why Sebastian is there and doing what he does, so I don’t feel attracted to them as characters. Not to mention they both show extremely little character growth compared to everyone else in the series, and it’s just…poor writing for your main characters to have no growth (Yana does a most excellent job in balancing the personalities across all of character, however, which is an incredible feat considering how many there are who have defined personalities). I myself feel that Ronald, Soma, Lizzy, Siegliende, and Wolf have had the most growth/development, and all of them are side characters. Sebastian is ‘perfect’, there’s no room for growth and barely any character flaws (which a Mary-Sue straight up I will barely like anyway). Sebastian in the beginning is a devious, snarky, obedient, and he’s hardly any different now. Soma in the beginning was self-centered and arrogant whereas now he thinks more about others and is kinder in general. Ronald’s development is more in the sense of his maturity from Circus to Campania.

[quote name="lamarqueisdead" date=2016-10-04 21:24:09] I'd like it to be something that doesn't involve the Undertaker as a chief antagonist, though. I think it'd be interesting to explore another type of supernatural threat than the shinigami, which have been involved in pretty much everything since the beginning, because I think it would be great for world-building and future plots to prove that more supernatural beings than demons and shinigami exist. How would these creatures fit into the divine/infernal hierarchy? Would they even be in the divine/infernal hierarchy? [/quote] @lamarqueisdead YES. I have screamed at Tumblr (aka..myself...and maybe the five people who ever like my posts lol) about this. The way I imagine it is that yes, the angels are beings within the Kuro world. I call them the Big Three - angels, demons, and reapers. A human knows they will die. Depending on their religion, they'll go to heaven or hell (be reincarnated, become stuck in eternal nothing, or nothing at all) but first they'll meet a grim reaper. In traditional western stories, a grim reaper collects the soul after someone has died and guides them to their afterlife destination (how kind - I'd probably get lost :P). That's it. In my own little fantasy world/imagination, the soul is able to process and 'see' where they're going ("Dead men tell no tales" after all, so who's to say?) and there is a neutral realm of sorts where the reaper takes you to either an angel or a demon, who then brings you to their own realm. Therefore, big three - the three main beings of the afterlife - the reaper who takes you there, the angel who will take you to the pearly gates, and the devil who will torment your soul for the rest of eternity (or eat it :P) . Of course, there are many, many other beings associated with death across cultures, but the common theme is that there is a creature(s) for/of death (grim reaper, Shinigami, Hellhounds, etc.), a gentle, kind creature of the afterlife (angels, cherubs, etc.) and a creature that will punish you for all the wrong you did in life (demons, devils, ghouls, angry spirits/gods, etc.) So in my head, a supernatural hierarchy places animals at the bottom, then humans, then lower level supernaturals (unicorns, phoenixes, kelpie/selkie, the purely animal type supernatural beings), followed by mixed-humanoid creatures (satyr, centaur, harpy, mermaids, etc.), then the ones who are more human in appearance (vampires, werewolves & other shapeshifters, fairies, elves, etc.), the demigods, then the Big Three, with Gods and Goddesses as the top tier.

@SilverDeath

Perhaps we'll see variations on the demonic/divine theme. So far, we've really only seen divine and demonic creatures in their traditional, Christian, Western contexts, but I think it'd be interesting to introduce other cultures' divine and demonic creatures. Oni, djinn, rakshasa, to name a few.

If the grim reaper is in charge of bringing the soul to either the angel or demon, does that mean that someone, somewhere, had to tell the reaper who they were bringing the soul to? Is there some sort of Divine Judgment that determines who goes to heaven or hell or is it up to the reaper's analysis of the Cinematic Records of that person? The reapers can already use the record to determine if someone lives or dies, but it's not mentioned if that extends to determining if they go to the good or bad afterlife.

Maybe that means we'll eventually see the shinigamis' boss, who for all we know could be the Christian God or some similar being, maybe like a high-ranking angel like a cherubim or seraphim.

I like your placement of the creatures on your supernatural hierarchy. I think that the way you've done it makes good sense for the context and abilities of the creatures mentioned. That being said, if there was a "lower-ranking" being such as a vampire or feyfolk introduced in the series, how would the demonic and divine beings treat it? What would be the lower-ranking creature's role be in the greater scheme of things?

@lamarqueisdead

That's where I'm a bit confused about the manga, since they're still referred to as shinigami instead of grim reapers. A Shinigami and a grim reaper are different, but still a similar concept. A shinigami is a god (literal translation is "death god" or "god of death"), while a grim reaper is not. If I remember my religion studies correctly... in Buddhism shinigami are considered demons who possess people and make them want to commit suicide (this is probably where Yana got the idea, minus the being a demon thing). In most western lore a grim reaper comes after you die to take your soul to the afterlife (in some stories they reaper is the one who kills you, but this is less common). Anyhow, creatures like imps and goblins are western sub-species of demons and I'd be curious if 'sub demons' like them would ever make an appearance.

I actually made a gigantic flow chart of reaper hierarchy that answers your question in a visual way. (Double click it to make it larger, or just download it to make it bigger.) But in the text format, this is how my chart of reaper hierarchy goes

Humans --> Academy Students/Reaper in Training --> Rookies (no department yet) --> Junior Officers (department division begins) --> Officers (no mentor, they may mentor juniors and rookies) --> Executive Officers --> Shift Leads (like assistant supervisor but still does mostly field work) --> Department Supervisor --> Department Manager --> Department Director --> Shift Lead of Management Dept. --> Supervisor of Management Dept. --> Manager of Management Dept. --> Director of Management Dept. --> Regional Board (like a state/province court) --> High Council (like the U.S. Supreme Court) --> Ancient Reapers (the early reapers who were there since the beginning and are still around) --> Undertaker (I always headcanon him to be THE reaper, the very first one, so when he was in Dispatch he usually got the final say in things)

And then there's a break, above Undertaker (with no connection line) is 'Unknown, Higher Powers'. These outside forces are the things that determine a reaper's redemption status, where they go after they reach their redemption, etc., but nobody can communicate directly with it. If you're religious this is your 'god tier' where the big man/men upstairs are making decisions. (*Hamilton music plays* They wanna be in the room where it happens, the room where it happens--)

I admittedly haven't put much thought into that part of it. I did consider how a vampire and a reaper would get along, for some reason. That said, how does it turn up in a reaper's list when it's a supernatural death as opposed to a 'natural' death (loosely defined here, death caused by like sickness, age, getting run over, falling off a cliff, etc.). A demon taking someone's soul is clearly a problem to the reapers. But what if someone wasn't really supposed to die but a vampire comes along and helps itself to a snack? (Alternatively, if these types of things do show up, what if it the vampire doesn't actually kill the human because of 'vampire code of ethics' or they tasted bad or whatever? xD) I suppose it wouldn't make that much of a difference, they're there to double-check the list after all, not finish off a person who's supposed to kick the bucket but hasn't.

Demons ad vampires, now that I think about it, may get along. The demon takes the soul and the vampire gets any easy meal. The demon takes the soul and a carnivorous supernatural gets an easy meal (or the creature kills it and the demon gets an easy meal if he beats the reaper to the scene).

@CrazyRedFire Oh boy, I love Black Butler, but I wasn't aware the anime followed a different storyline. Guess I better read the manga(and finish the anime. Only made it to episode 15, but I still think it's awesome.)