General Discussion

[quote name="Demonically" date="2015-01-23 10:43:48"]@Foxhall Except not everyone is offended.[/quote] @Demonically - That doesn't mean it isn't *offensive* - it just means some people do a really good job with internalised misogyny, or otherwise, suspending disbelief and not really thinking about it or engaging with things on a critical level. Like you said by your own admittance - you don't go to a movie for social commentary, it's not about engaging with the media critically for you - that's fair! But forgetting about life =/= the movies don't present offensive material. In fact, by [i]your[/i] definition, you get to avoid offensive material by switching your brain off. 'Removing your brain.' [quote]Then again the current trend of "everything must be represented!" is honestly overbearing at times.[/quote] Oh no, in a world where there are more than 50% of women, it's so utterly [i]terrible[/i] to want more than about a 10% representation in [i]some[/i] movies. How absolutely dire. Maybe if you sat down and watched all the Marvel movies back to back with a view to representation, you might see where some of us are coming from. Then again, maybe not, when you're able to brush off decades of oppression with an attitude that feels a lot like 'it just gets old and it doesn't bother me because I don't like to think about it.' Then again, I don't know why it bothers you that WE have an opinion, when we clearly like the films and understand the canon and the comics and actually still really enjoy the text! Because I don't really think having an honest discussion about media is obnoxious at all. Additionally? I'm not really sure how critically engaging in a discussion about movies that many of us obviously enjoy, is 'demanding representation in the most obnoxious way possible.' And if it is - then isn't you postulating your opinion in exactly the same way, through exactly the same medium, often as repetitively as everyone else...kind of a part of that?

@Khelidon: I have no idea what to make of the whole Remeder thing with the potential drunken sex thing. On the one hand, the character is now 23, so of course she's old enough to have sex with whoever she wants. On the other hand, that is WAY too skimpy an outfit for any woman to wear, and implying drunken sex is totally not cool. What else has Remender done besides that? I think I'm going to sit on the fence for now because IDK what to make of it. I'm leaning towards the 'it was done in poor taste and he should be fired' thing. If he's done a lot of cruddy stuff, he needs to get kicked. I have no idea WHY someone would even do something like that to begin with. Just poor taste, and probably someone who should stop writing these comics for a LONG time.

And yeah, I know basically what Natasha's story is and I'm hoping it's handled well. But after the mewling quim thing, I'm not so sure. I think it could be a moving and chilling backstory if told properly, but I don't know if Whedon is the sort of guy who'd tell it tastefully or not. We can only hope. :/

Hmmm. Thanks for letting me know. Not sure if I'll watch it, but hey, I may start reading the comics. Loki: Agent of Asgard looks pretty good in particular. ^^

I think it depends on if changing the race of the character is going to change them hugely or not. If it won't affect the character and you have a good PoC actor that will portray them faithfully, then why the heck not? As long as it won't affect the character in an enormous way and you're not just shoving it in awkwardly, then go right ahead. More representation is always a good thing. ^^ And at least with Fury, him being black isn't a totally unexpected thing since he was black in some of the comics.

How would you have communicated Loki's sexism? His villainy is handled just fine, but I think there's better ways to show he's sexist. I would've gotten rid of the mewling quim line and had him threaten Widow in a way that didn't seem to take away her agency or seem r-a-p-e-y. I also wouldn't have had him say that he'd pay Jane a visit-I'd just have left it when he said Thor was soft because of Jane and had him say something else threatening about Jane without it seeming r-a-p-e-y. He could also drop it subtly by disregarding female characters because of their gender or saying things like women can't do certain things. Really, you can totally have a character be sexist without making them say an equivalent of the C-word or imply r-a-p-e. :/

@MythGriffin24 Yarp. I'm glad more and more people are noticing this, though, ngl. It's not so much that Marvel is sexist, (which, yeah sure, there might be instances of that in amongst millions of lines of dialogue), but I think that falls more so on Hollywood and expectations that a sprinkling of misogyny is totes okay. Which, spoiler, it isn't. Yeah, I'd also like to point out with Guardians of the Galaxy, a lot of the Gamora merch wasn't being sold, or even made, because grills, amirite?? Reply from Children's Place after being called out for that garbage [img]https://pbs.twimg.com/media/BvVvwF_IMAAaQM1.png[/img] Welp, cuz, OH MAN, hell will apparently freeze over if guys need to relate to girls. As like... ya know, people. WHOOOOAAOAOOOOOAO what an idea tho. And yeah, needlessly writing in that Gamora is called something that doesn't apply to the story at all, in a movie that's targeted towards children? GG Hollywood, you did it. You continue to make it subtle enough that most parents wont catch, but still put it in to ruin the minds of young children. G freakin' G. So yeah, long story short, I totes agree. Not so much that Marvel themselves are, but more so that media outlets allow it to happen under the guise of 'that's just how the character is'. Spoiler: when children are involved, which have developing minds and are like small sponges to gesture, tone, and words like that, you need to think harder about why you write the things you write. [s]Oh maybe, that was the point all along... Which is even worse. [/s]

@crystal3001: Thanks so much for the article! It's eye-opening and makes you really realize some of the problems with casual misogyny in both films and in our culture. I will say, though, that it was nice of Marvel to briefly show a woman in a powerful position in GotG-Nova Prime-but I agree that Gamora could've been treated better in her character development, Nebula's and Gamora's relationship could've been explored better to improve their character arcs and add to the story, and the little sexist remarks could've been excised or reworked to not seem as offensive without impacting the story.

@frostkingdemetri: What a stinker. Why wouldn't they put Gamora on a boy's shirt? If they want to make shirts with, say, just Rocket or Groot or groupings of some of the male characters, it's one thing, but if you don't have shirts with Gamora-or Nebula-or include her in shirts with EVERYONE on it, then that's showing a very sexist attitude towards marketing. If there's cool girls in a movie, we want merchandise on them. Even guys want merchandise with ladies on them since guys like girl characters just the same way as girls like guy characters.

What if society was reversed and people didn't include male characters on merchandise or made casual sexist remarks against men in movies and stuff and nobody gave a hoot? That's how it is for women, and I wish Hollywood realized that men can relate to a well-written, layered woman and that since women are half of the population, we need to be treated better in this culture. Honestly, YOUNG MEN ARE NOT THE ONLY PEOPLE WHO SEE MOVIES. AND-GASP-CHICKS LIKE NERDY MOVIES TOO. Hopefully we'll get more women in the industry and this will change so women have plenty of movies about them to chose from in theaters and they can go to a movie, even if it's not a movie with a female lead, without worrying that there might be misogynist/sexist remarks that will spoil the movie in it. God, if you actually exist, please try to improve the film industry so women don't have to put up with this sexist crud anymore...

We've progressed slightly beyond women in refrigerators, but not by much.

I think a big part of the problem is our society's lack of respect for just about everything nowadays. Another factor is the fact that sarcasm and mean-spirited comments are more intellectually stimulating than nice ones.

The only real solution is to not stoop to the level of trolls, avoid using mean language as often as possible (I think the OP has done a good job of this), and help people associate your cause (ending misogyny) with positivity.

@crystal3001: True. Women shouldn't be fridged-they should be opportunities for adding a new perspective and more layers to the universe. I can't understand how it is that some people in Hollywood seem to find writing women so difficult. I can write male and female characters easily because there's barely, if any, different between the two sexes. I don't understand why people in Hollywood today couldn't learn how to write women well-Miyzaki is a man and the women in his movies are very realistic and respectfully portrayed.

So why the fridging? Why getting the often-times uncreative and needless deaths? Why do us women get the short end of the stick? Plenty of women and men want to see cool chicks when we go to see movies. Strong women doesn't mean they can kick butt, although that's wonderful too. Strong women means women who are real, flawed, internally conflicted, hurting, but still finding the strength to continue on and find solutions and figure out which paths to take despite the problems they encounter on a daily basis. Just like men.

Seems like the woman who's getting the best treatment in the MCU is Black Widow. I've only seen 3 Marvel films-Thor, The Avengers, and Guardians of the Galaxy-but sadly despite all of those women having supporting roles, they're not as fleshed out as they could be. I'm especially sad that Frigga, who seems to be a strong and incredibly loving mother, hasn't gotten more time to flesh out her relationship with Loki. There's an example of an interesting, likable woman who could've been a wonderful character had she only had more screentime and not been fridged. I have no plans to see Thor 2, but I know Frigga is killed off and I find that a real pity since she seemed to be one of the better female characters in Thor.

I suppose Jane and Darcy are all right, but it'd be nice if Jane could be more than the cute sciency girlfriend and Darcy could be more than the snarky everywoman intern. And Gamora...she could've been an equal to Black Widow in the conflicted but awesome woman with a dark past department, but sadly she didn't get the screentime she needed to be fully interesting, which is a shame, especially since exploring her relationship with Nebula would have been a nice opportunity to include a female-female family-centric relationship in the film. That just leaves us Black Widow, who I hope gets more screentime because seeing her in Avengers left me wanting to know more of her story. And even in Avengers she wasn't treated as well as she could be by the writers-her first scene felt a little bit uncomfortably sexualized and there was that mewling quim line that apparently Whedon threw in because he wanted it to get past the censors.

So yeah, it'd be nice to have better women in our movies, and if Marvel-or other companies who produce nerdy films-want to create richer stories and keep their female audience, they ought to strive to write better women in their films.

@Thaesda: I agree. I hate it so much when people don't bother to politely explain their viewpoint even if they don't agree by saying "This is how I felt and here's why.." Instead, they just brush off whatever they don't agree with and call those of us who say something different awful names. I'm not saying everyone does this-FR is pretty respectful unlike other places on the Internet-but it's something that does happen frequently, especially on the Internet, and I wish people were more tolerant and accepting of viewpoints that aren't their own. And about sarcasm-it can be used to good effect if it's thought-provoking without belittling someone else's opinion-say, when used in satire to highlight a flaw in society. But if people are harsh because they don't agree, then they should say nothing at all. Rudeness is almost an epidemic sometimes...*sigh*

It was interesting to read through this, i suppose its one of those things that alot of people are numbed to, not excluding myself, and simply don't seem to be bothered by it. In some ways it should be something that doesn't need to happen in their movies maybe but i enjoy their movies thoroughly enough that i didn't seem to pay attention. But like a lot of people mentioned, Marvel does have some strong female characters, I'm quite excited to watch Agent Carter!