General Discussion

@MythGriffin24 Because people go about demanding representation in the most obnoxious ways possible to the point I want to go "I'm not with those folks".

No. The whole reason it feels "shoved in" is because attention is being called to it and it's not done well. "Hey! Hey! Look, we're cool, because we included the sexuality/gender flavor of the month!"

...Yes, that was a snarky jab at tumblr.

I think it is sometimes, and it bothers me, but Marvel's definitely not the worst. I find DC to be WAAAY more sexist than Marvel (did you SEE the cover for Teen Titans comic that had Supergirl on it?)

I really wish there was a superhero movie with a female main character. I wish there were more female superheroes...

However, I dislike what Marvel has been doing to their female characters. See, we've gone from having dramatic, sexy damsels-in-distress to emotionless, sexy fighters. There's nothing wrong with either of those except for how every one of them has to be sexy all the time. We like to say that movies are becoming less sexist, but they really aren't; they've just changed from women being sexy victim characters to being sexy strong characters. They like to cover it up with giving them a gun and having them shooting on screen, and say "Look! She's fighting! She's a strong female character! Oh, also she's showing as much cleavage as possible and almost all of her legs, but still!"

They're still sexualizing female characters. They're trying to appeal to the male audience as much as they can. They have stopped focusing on making WELL-DONE characters to making STRONG characters, and there is a difference. When I look at Black Widow's character, and I mean REALLY look beyond the gun in her hand and the cool fighting skills, her personality is...kind of boring and stereotypical. Gamora's personality was very similar to hers. So was Pepper's.

The female characters are all so bland to me, like, no development, it's like they're just there for guys to drool over.

Why shouldn't we have female heroes who have a good weakness? Or are at least interesting as far as character goes? We can't we have a quirky heroine, or a nerdy heroine, or a goofy heroine, or anything else and in between? Or how about some that actually show EMOTION? They're all just the same. It's the men that are always getting good character development and personalities.

Yeah, guys can be sexualized on screen as well, but it's usually not their soul purpose, and at least they're interesting as people. The women are always just made to be eye-candy.

@Demonically: Well, the reason people HAVE to be vocal is because if we don't make a stink, it'll never happen. Hollywood is already terrible with only having white cishet men as protagonists. I wish I could say 'Hollywood just doesn't want to portray anyone who's not white and cishet', but no. They don't even want to portray WOMEN very often most of the time. That's a huge problem when one gender doesn't have as many movies as it should have and is treated as a minority even though there a gajillion women in the world. I think that people just need to stop shoving it in there and start working on having a character be PoC or bi or gay or trans or female or whatever and stop calling attention to it. Once we can insert minorities into our stories without calling attention, then we will be truly progressive.

I just ask this-what do you think of stories that DON'T add minorities to be a flavor of the month? Do you just not enjoy any minorities in your story at all? I'm not trying to be offensive, but I was trying to say that I don't like it when minorities are shoved in just to please minorities and are there because it's logical for the story and isn't a big deal. Does it bother you to have ANY stories about minorities even when the minority-ness isn't pointed out? :/

@WiseGirl: Well, Captain Marvel will have a female protagonist if my knowledge is correct. Still wish we had a Black Widow movie. I find her interesting and kind of want to know her backstory, especially if it involves Budapest. I'm starting to wonder just how odd Budapest got if Hawkeye and BW remember it very differently. :P

Ok, I agree with you about the sexy outfits. That needs to change. But at least Jane and Darcy from Thor were wearing decent clothes, even if they weren't the most interesting female characters on the planet. :/ I personally find Black Widow to be interesting because of the fact that she did a lot of terrible things in the past and how she's close to Hawkeye and she isn't his girlfriend. They just seem like they went through a lot together and have stuck together ever since. I guess they could do more for Widow, and I really hope we get to learn her backstory soon. If you took away her guns and abilities, I think I'd still like her. Definitely want to see more of her because I find her interesting and I want to know more of who she is.

I agree about Gamora, though-shame really because it sounded like her past with Thanos and Nebula could've made for a fascinating story. If I were James Gunn, I'd make sure that Gamora's backstory was discussed and she had more character development in GotG 2.

I don't particularly like Jane or Darcy, but to me they seem some of the better thought-out characters as far as female characters go along with BW. I know, they're not the best, but Darcy is pretty snarky and Jane is kind of an energetic adorable scientist gal who sometimes can't help but drool over Thor. Neither of those two are action types and I find them a bit more interesting than Sif, who should've been a better character than she was. Again, not saying that they're great, but at least Jane and Darcy aren't the emotionless action girl type you're talking about. Just thought I'd bring that up since you seem to think Marvel can only do one kind of girl. True for the most part, but I think maybe it's more like two or three kinds of girl...XD

I do agree that Marvel needs to step up their chick game. I hope that when Captain Marvel comes out, it'll do really well and show Marvel that they can have a woman in the lead. Maybe it'll encourage them to do a Black Widow movie or at least keep trying to improve their female characters. No wonder so many chicks dig Loki-he's the closest we have to a good female character in the MCU. I'm only half-joking, but Loki certainly does have a lot of appealing feminine characteristics-he can get very emotional at times, he's shown to really care about his mother, he's not a buff fighter dude like just about everyone in Asgard although he totally makes up for it in cunning and magic, and he's attractive in a pretty-boy way with finer facial features and long hair. I mean, there's a lot of reasons why Loki is awesome, but when a man with a few characteristics that can be seen as feminine is the closest we have to a good 'female' character, I'd say it's an issue.

I hope that in the future Marvel will step up its game. You have a few decent women, but you need to either flesh them out even more to make them even better and you also need to make well-developed female characters from scratch. I hope they can improve on that in the future because us ladies deserve better.

Whew, okay, I saw this on my phone and literally got out of bed to write something up real fast. FOR THE RECORD: I'm a long time Marvel fan; I read comics religiously and my monthly pull list is ridiculously long at this point. BUT: this does not give me nerd points, or mean that what I say here is representative of the feelings of all female Marvel fans, or also mean that what I say is somehow 'worth more' or 'more important' than the fan who just watched the Avengers for the first time yesterday, or hasn't read the comics, etc. Let's not have any fandom policing in here, okay, 616 fans?

@MythGriffin24 I applaud you. Right now. This is me applauding. I notice you've attracted a few naysayers for your original post, as was bound to happen; I would advise you just ignore them, as you're completely correct.

Is Marvel offensive towards women? The wording here is odd but I would argue that yes, they are. I am a woman, and I am offended. Other people in this thread are offended. The answer is necessarily yes. But without having done more than skimmed the rest of the thread, I think what you're saying here is more like: 'Does Marvel have a women problem?' The answer is of course yes.

What I mean when I say this is not that there’s an abundance—though it still exists!! people have already correctly brought up Joss Whedon’s ridiculous ‘mewling quim’ remark that he was oh-so-pleased at having snuck in; as well as one of the many travesties in James Gunn’s GOTG script reworking—of blatant misogyny in the MCU or 616 but that there’s an abundance of casual misogyny. Nobody is saying to Natasha in a meeting or something ‘oh, no, sorry dear, you can’t go on this mission: better let the tough guys deal with it, yeah?’ (they are saying it in Agent Carter, but that is a story for another time). Instead we get small things.

So let’s look at it this way: out of Marvel’s films and TV shows so far, which of them have been primarily about someone who was not a straight white male? Oh, that’s right! One of them, and that only very recently. The vast majority of the female characters in the MCU have been introduced as love interests, and only two have been unequivocally considered major superheroes in their own right. Even Natasha, by all accounts a popular character, is not considered as being worth her own solo film, or of getting a substantial amount of merchandise centred on her character, etc. Her storylines have not been her own, and instead revolve continually around the men in her life (past and present, friends, lest you try and drag her 616 backstory into her storyline in CATWS). This is a problem with 616 Natasha, too, and one we’re only recently starting to correct, with great 616 storylines like The Name of the Rose and the current run of Black Widow.

Even fridging is still an issue in the MCU! See: shameless fridging of Frigga as the most blatant example, but also the treatment of Victoria Hand, who also had her sexuality erased (full disclosure: I am queer). Kevin Feige has happily and publicly said that he believes diversity is a negative quality; insert Ron Burgundy joke here. They continue to hire a known sexual harasser, and I’m not even going to touch Rick Remender with a ten foot pole. Even their stars have this problem: RDJ has made it quite clear that he doesn’t think Natasha needs her own film; I am too lazy to supply links but will if requested. The vast majority of artists and writers for Marvel are also male, though this is of course an industry-wide problem. To put it simply: a handful of female characters per film, most largely there in the background or with no bearing on the plot other than ‘oh hey, it’s our hero’s motivation!’, is not good enough, and it means that yes, Virginia, Marvel has a problem. When we as feminists (that’s not a dirty word, friends!) strive for representation and equality, this is not it. The use of horrid sexist slurs is not equality. Someone occasionally being bothered to write in a role for a female character is not equality.

Representation matters, Marvel. This is a problem, without even touching the racial issues Marvel has. It does need to be fixed.

@Khelidon: Those are some thoughtful points and exactly what I've been getting at in the first post, which some people sadly didn't realize. I'm tempted to read those Black Widow comics just to see Marvel doing something interesting with her character. I really do like BW and think she might be Marvel's best female character at the moment, and I hope she does get her own movie one day because seeing her in Avengers made me want to know more about her past and her relationship with Hawkeye. I am crossing my fingers that Marvel will have a success when they do finally release Captain Marvel, which I understand has a female protagonist, and that it teaches them what they need to do with female leads and how to improve female characters who aren't leads. I think they're doing a TV series called Agent Carter with a female lead, although I haven't watched it, but that seems to be a small start. Fingers crossed that they'll be able to improve their chicks so they can get rid of these problems slowly over time.

Also, if Feige doesn't like diversity, why are there PoC characters like Heimdall and Nick Fury in the MCU? I thought Fury was really cool without drawing attention too much to his race and it seemed to me like the MCU was trying to insert PoC into their movies to try and at least please minorities. Sadly, I guess I'm wrong. :/ Why would he consider diversity a bad thing? If you can be more diverse without calling attention to your diversity, it's definitely always a good thing. Plus, it's just awesome to see a film with diverse characters who prove that because you're a minority doesn't mean you get shoved to the side in stories. And they hire a known sexual harasser? If I wasn't in love with Loki, I'd boycott the MCU. -_-

Is there a way to start a petition to bring these kinds of things to light at Marvel? They need to know about this kind of thing and unless we speak out, they won't change very much.

@MythGriffin24 You should definitely read some Black Widow! She's my favourite character in 616 and has been for a loooong time. Her current run is very accessible for MCU fans! And if you like Loki, you should consider Loki: Agent of Asgard, which is lots of fun and I think similarly accessible for movie fans. You'll get to find out Natasha's backstory in Age of Ultron anyways, or so it seems, though I am very worried about Joss Whedon being in charge of it because of his track record with really enjoying stories where he gets to write a woman having her agency taken away from her, see: Dollhouse etc etc.

Captain Marvel is an upcoming release, yes, and I am tentatively excited! Unfortunately, of course, one film is hardly enough :/ But it is a (very late) start. I've been watching Agent Carter religiously, and encourage everyone else to do so, it's lots of fun! It has passed the Bechdel Test in every episode thus far (though that's a low bar), and deals with sexism in a serious and well-written manner. I recommend it highly.

RE: Kevin Feige and diversity, I honestly think he has noticed that people are unhappy and takes this geek-boy attitude of 'omg well I won't bow down to the SJWs and evil feminists!!! not me!!' that is sadly too common in these circles. Completely the wrong response, of course. Disney deciding that these films can be marketed to boys and apparently boys alone (when was the last time you say Black Widow merch in a toystore alongside all the other Avengers stuff?) does not help matters.

I'm not aware of any petitions, though D: I kind of...tend to stick to my own corner of the fandom and that's all, maybe someone else can point you towards some! The best thing we can do is this imo: be loud and angry, make ourselves heard, don't boycott everything, but buy what interests you. Sales is what they pay attention to! I've been boycotting Captain America lately (very hard for me to do) because of Rick Remender's involvement, for instance. If you say nothing, nothing will change!

Yes Drax's comments on Gamora made me pause and go 'What...really now?' and it did come across a bit out of character for him, please take into account I have limited knowledge on him from the comics.

As to Loki, he is sexist. That's an aspect of his character in both the movie and the comic books, the comic books actually address this aspect of his personality and he gets called out on it. Marvel, from what I can tell, creates flawed characters as examples of what not to be.

As to Quill, I'd recommend checking out the comics, he grows up trust me.

@Koharu Drax's comment was completely out of line and unacceptable by any standard, I agree, though similarly I have basically zero knowledge of the 616 version of the character and I only saw GOTG once.

However! We know Loki is sexist, and a villain. We do not need to be shown this by having him literally call a character--the only major female character in the film--a whiny you-know-what. There's no exaggeration there at all, that's literally what he said, and then immediately proceeded to arguably threaten her with assault. This is really troubling and upsetting, when assualt and being subjected to these threats are a reality of life for many women (myself included). It does not matter that he's ~evil, or that it's ~realistic, it matters that a male writer who arguably has an obsession with threatening his ~strong female characters in this way, and certainly a history of doing this, put that line in the film to begin with. Can you imagine a comparable slur being used against a male character? I certainly can't, and I think there would be serious backlash if it was done. We know Loki's evil! This was something Joss Whedon put in because he wanted it there and wanted to see if he could get it pass the censors. That isn't acceptable imo.

Re: Quill and comics. This isn't 616 though! This is a film, a separate entity that was introducing the character for the first time to most people in the audience. It doesn't matter what eventually happens, or what the status quo is in comics, because people are upset about the film, not those, and the film is removed from a larger canonical context. It's part of a larger trend, where we establish that our space-cowboy-rogue is a certain kind of hero by his interactions with women (see: Star Trek 2009, where literally the exact same thing happened). It's unnecessary! We already know what kind of man Quill is. When we discuss sexism in films and comics, we're largely talking about microaggressions, little things that pile up to create one big heap of sexism. Taken individually, they are perhaps not so bad, but they are everywhere in Hollywood and comics. Marvel has the opportunity to do their part to fix these little jabs, and they haven't. I think that's the real issue here, though maybe other people disagree.

@Koharu: Loki is actually sexist? And to think I'm one of those ladies who absolutely loves him...*shakes head* You're getting some red in your ledger, sweetheart-errr, God of Mischief. Loki, you better try to avoid dissing women when I'm watching you or else I'm going to see if that grease in your beautiful fluffy hair is actually flammable. *shakes fist teasingly in the air* I wonder why. It seems so strange since he seemed to treat his mother fairly well. I'd be curious to know why exactly he has a thing against women-was he betrayed by a woman he loved or something?

And yeah, Drax's comment...was odd. Some people in this thread have said that some of the prisoners called her a green w-h-o-r-e but I honestly can't remember that from the movie. It'd make sense if he heard it from one of the other prisoners and didn't know what it meant, but yeah....awkward. :/ And comic!Quill grows up? Who'd have ever thought our widdle man-child would put on his big-boy pants? *pats Quill on the head XD*

@Khelidon: Loki: Agent of Asgard seems like something I'd enjoy. Damn, Marvel, you might be getting me to read your comics now. XD Although Agent!Loki seems pretty cool too, even if he's not exactly Hiddleston. :P I shall let you know if I ever read either BW or LAoA. And I hope that Widow's backstory is given the tragic dignity it deserves, because if her agency's taken away, I'll be pretty ticked off at Whedon. One does not simply have an assassin like Widow get her agency taken away because someone director is Jossing around. *shakes head*

And fingers crossed for Captain Marvel. I'm hoping it does well because it might be the encouragement Marvel needs to improve their female characters. And yes, sadly, it's a late start, but hey, maybe it means better Marvel women in the future for us. ^^ And if Carter is well-written, passes the Bechdel Test, and discusses sexism in a classy manner, I might find it interesting. Too bad I don't watch TV. :/ Know of any good streaming services I might be able to use?

I understand that Feige doesn't want to do something because he has a certain vision in mind and I don't think you should push in stuff to please fans if it doesn't fit with the story. But I think Fury was originally white-not sure if Heimdall was-and I think black!Fury is totally fine since his actor does a decent job with him. Honestly, if there was a white character that got changed to a different race in a movie, I'd probably take a bit of time to adjust, but if the PoC actor stayed true to the character and nothing else was changed about the character, I think I could get used to it. I actually just saw an image of white!Fury and, oddly enough, think he looks better black. But that's just me. *shrug*

But seriously, how hard is it to have a women in a small unconventional role or develop strong female characters? If you can make a dude with a horned helmet so endearing and bada-s-s, you can do the same with women. You have some chicks with potential in your flicks, Marvel-try to see what you can do with them. We know you have it in you. :)

That's why I started this thread. I'm glad it's gotten so many responses and that even with a few booers, most people have been sensible and polite, even if they don't agree with my argument about Marvel not being cool towards women. If you know any sites that let you make petitions, please leave a link because I'd love to raise awareness of the issues I've brought up in this thread. And just out of morbid curiosity, what's the deal with Rick Remender?

And I agree with your comments about Loki. I wish we could have had his sexism shown in a different way, though. The only two ways he's shown he's sexist are both really offensive-the infamous mewling quim line and the fact that he threatened to 'visit' Jane, which was obviously r-a-p-e-y in nature. Can't you show his sexism in other ways? Like, when Sif and the Warriors Three were asking him to bring back Thor in the first Thor film, they could've had Sif say something and imply that Loki rejected whatever she said because she was a woman. Or just have Loki imply that Thor was weakened by having a girlfriend without Loki throwing a seeming r-a-p-e threat at Jane just to tick off Thor. Maybe Loki really is that disgustingly sexist, but I feel like there's better ways to communicate that without offending women viewers in the process.

Same goes for Quill-unless it's vital to his character that he sleeps with women, don't show it. Or at least don't show alien chicks in their panties because you can. Honestly, we didn't need to know his disgusting exploits because it had no implications on the plot other than for cheap jokes. It's gross.

@MythGriffin24 It starts so simply: one day you say 'oh, well, I'll read this comic just this once, just to try it' and then the next day you're buying everything you see D: Comics: not even once XD

Natasha's origin story has always centered around her having her agency taken away: long story short and without too many spoilers, what happened to her is essentially what happened to Bucky (they're even both products of the same program, arguably, in 616, and knew one another there). So because of its deliberate links with assault and abuse it needs to be handled with care, and I don't trust Joss Whedon to do it right.

If you're in the US, you can watch Agent Carter at ABC and I thiiiiink on Hulu, as well as Amazon (paid, though). I'm not in the US so I can't help a huge amount. If you're outside the US, ABC still works with a VPN ;)

Fury is a little complicated: 616 Fury is white, but Utimates Fury is based on Sam Jackson, and the MCU basically uses a mix of 616/Ultimates for its canon. But you're right: race is really of no issue, and I think it's actually positive to change the race of characters! Representation matters. It isn't at all hard for Marvel to improve their representation, is the thing, you're right! It wouldn't impact viewer numbers or anything, and is just a decent normal thing to do.

Re: Rick Remender, here is a post with some links for a rundown of what happened, and here is a good post by the same author on the 'controversy'. TW for discussion of assault and race at the link, though they're all things that were in the relevant issue.

Also 'there are better ways to communicate' Loki's sexism/general villainy. You're completely right, and that's what I'm saying! There are better ways to do this that don't involve threatening our main female characters in such a disturbing way.

I'm glad you made this thread, it's generating really interesting discussion and most people are civil :3