Why was Spines rarity changed? | Flight Rising Discussion

That is a pretty weird thing to change suddenly and without warning... surely the devs must have anticipated how this might drastically affect a lot of breeding pairs, so why not at least a little heads up? They warned us ahead of time about standardising coliseum skin prices, which was great, but then why no warning about this change to one of the main mechanics of the game?

I'm not at all mad, and I respect that the devs' sometimes need to make changes to established mechanics, and not everyone is going to like that. I just think it would have been nice to get some warning first, or at the very least a brief explanation of why the rarity need to be changed in the announcement. From what I've seen, most players really appreciate that kind of communication.

gayrurumon

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March 22, 2023 04:17:04

That is a pretty weird thing to change suddenly and without warning... surely the devs must have anticipated how this might drastically affect a lot of breeding pairs, so why not at least a little heads up? They warned us ahead of time about standardising coliseum skin prices, which was great, but then why no warning about this change to one of the main mechanics of the game?

I'm not at all mad, and I respect that the devs' sometimes need to make changes to established mechanics, and not everyone is going to like that. I just think it would have been nice to get some warning first, or at the very least a brief explanation of why the rarity need to be changed in the announcement. From what I've seen, most players really appreciate that kind of communication.

This is a pretty random change, so I'm wondering why, too.

MaplesHaiku

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March 22, 2023 04:24:10

This is a pretty random change, so I'm wondering why, too.

[quote name="WindFox" date="2023-03-22 04:02:23" ] [quote name="str3ss" date="2023-03-22 03:33:00" ] i never even knew genes had rarities but can someone explain to me why this makes people want to change breeding pairs now ??? i genuinely don't understand [/quote] Because in breeding, the chance of offspring having a gene of one of the parents differs based on the rarity, people used spines against more common genes because it had lesser chance to appear in offsprings. [/quote] @str3ss To add an example to this: Say you had a pair where one mate has Spines and the other Capsule. Previously both of these genes were listed as limited rarity, so their offspring has a 50% chance of getting either. Now that Spines is uncommon, the chance of Spines increases to maybe 75% while only 25% of the offspring get Capsule. This messes with the expected output of the pairing. It can also be frustrating because higher rarity genes are generally more expensive, so you want that investment to pay off by the gene being passed on to offspring. I spent a couple months farming for Blossom, and by the end of that challenge I'd invested so much time and treasure that I won't ever pair that dragon with a mate that doesn't guarantee blossom hatchlings.

CinnamonThief

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March 22, 2023 04:24:23

WindFox wrote on 2023-03-22 04:02:23:

str3ss wrote on 2023-03-22 03:33:00:

i never even knew genes had rarities but can someone explain to me why this makes people want to change breeding pairs now ??? i genuinely don't understand

Because in breeding, the chance of offspring having a gene of one of the parents differs based on the rarity, people used spines against more common genes because it had lesser chance to appear in offsprings.

@str3ss
To add an example to this:

Say you had a pair where one mate has Spines and the other Capsule. Previously both of these genes were listed as limited rarity, so their offspring has a 50% chance of getting either.

Now that Spines is uncommon, the chance of Spines increases to maybe 75% while only 25% of the offspring get Capsule.

This messes with the expected output of the pairing. It can also be frustrating because higher rarity genes are generally more expensive, so you want that investment to pay off by the gene being passed on to offspring. I spent a couple months farming for Blossom, and by the end of that challenge I'd invested so much time and treasure that I won't ever pair that dragon with a mate that doesn't guarantee blossom hatchlings.

Dang… gonna have to change up future breeding pairs nkw

Leaful

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March 22, 2023 04:27:04

Dang… gonna have to change up future breeding pairs nkw

[quote name="arcaneidolriots" date="2023-03-21 22:26:33" ] [quote name="CastInCopper" date="2023-03-21 21:17:27" ] Im not mad or anything [/quote] Oh, I am. I am quite frustrated with this sudden and unannounced change. Seriously, why [i]can't[/i] the devs gives players warning ahead of time they're going to be messing with old and well established genes? I have three breeding pairs that I deliberately chose Spines for and paired them up another Limited tert gene because I liked the look of both terts for the pair. It also gives my customers options; if they don't like one tert, no big deal, they can wait for hatchlings with the other gene. Now I'm going to have to regene those breeding pairs which, at the minimum, is going to run me up 570kT. I can pay for the expense, that's not the issue, but this was not the kind of news I was expecting to wake up to. Kinda kills my excitement for the new Ancient breed honestly. Instead of potentially buying new dragons, I'm going to be spending that money fixing my pairs. :\ [quote name="Scintillia" date="2023-03-21 21:18:38" ] Limited genes are usually either genes only found at certain times of the year(like smirch and nocturne breed scrolls) or ones that are created/dug up(arlo and baldwin). Spines,, wasn't created by either, so it was changed to the correct rarity! [/quote] If that's the case then Gembond and Runes should have had their rarity changed to Uncommon as well, as those genes are also available year-round on the MP. And this just adds to my frustration because now I don't know if those terts [i]will[/i] get their rarities changed at some point! Which means that I'll have a whole other batch of breeding pairs that will likely need to have their terts addressed. I don't want to be spending more money on pairs that I already had completed. I want to spend that money on new projects! (Also, casual reminder that Bar & Daub, despite being a matching gene set, have [i]different gene rarities that have never been addressed[/i]. Bar is Uncommon and Daub is Common. What's even better is that Aberrations [i]do[/i] have Daub set as Uncommon rarity and matches Bar, but now we have the issue that [i]gene raritiy is inconsistent across Modern and Ancient breeds[/i]. Another example is Hex. It's Uncommon for Modern breeds but Common for Veilspun. Shouldn't those issues have more priority in fixing?) Look, I'm aware that the devs can make whatever changes they want. I don't have a problem with that, it's their game after all. [b]All I ask is to be warned ahead of time of these changes.[/b] /rant [/quote] This was the first thing I thought. I don't currently, but I did have a pair that had spines to go with another limited gene so that limited gene had at least a 50/50 chance of showing up. I don't think it's a good idea at all to start changing gene rarities unless it's an error. Clearly it wasn't an error after all this time. I will be pretty unhappy if a future change affects a pair I very carefully and intentionally gened.

Stormhawke

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March 22, 2023 04:28:03

arcaneidolriots wrote on 2023-03-21 22:26:33:

CastInCopper wrote on 2023-03-21 21:17:27:

Im not mad or anything

Oh, I am. I am quite frustrated with this sudden and unannounced change. Seriously, why can't the devs gives players warning ahead of time they're going to be messing with old and well established genes?

I have three breeding pairs that I deliberately chose Spines for and paired them up another Limited tert gene because I liked the look of both terts for the pair. It also gives my customers options; if they don't like one tert, no big deal, they can wait for hatchlings with the other gene.

Now I'm going to have to regene those breeding pairs which, at the minimum, is going to run me up 570kT. I can pay for the expense, that's not the issue, but this was not the kind of news I was expecting to wake up to. Kinda kills my excitement for the new Ancient breed honestly. Instead of potentially buying new dragons, I'm going to be spending that money fixing my pairs. :\

Scintillia wrote on 2023-03-21 21:18:38:

Limited genes are usually either genes only found at certain times of the year(like smirch and nocturne breed scrolls) or ones that are created/dug up(arlo and baldwin). Spines,, wasn't created by either, so it was changed to the correct rarity!

If that's the case then Gembond and Runes should have had their rarity changed to Uncommon as well, as those genes are also available year-round on the MP.

And this just adds to my frustration because now I don't know if those terts will get their rarities changed at some point! Which means that I'll have a whole other batch of breeding pairs that will likely need to have their terts addressed. I don't want to be spending more money on pairs that I already had completed. I want to spend that money on new projects!

(Also, casual reminder that Bar & Daub, despite being a matching gene set, have different gene rarities that have never been addressed. Bar is Uncommon and Daub is Common.

What's even better is that Aberrations do have Daub set as Uncommon rarity and matches Bar, but now we have the issue that gene raritiy is inconsistent across Modern and Ancient breeds. Another example is Hex. It's Uncommon for Modern breeds but Common for Veilspun. Shouldn't those issues have more priority in fixing?)

Look, I'm aware that the devs can make whatever changes they want. I don't have a problem with that, it's their game after all. All I ask is to be warned ahead of time of these changes.

/rant

This was the first thing I thought. I don't currently, but I did have a pair that had spines to go with another limited gene so that limited gene had at least a 50/50 chance of showing up. I don't think it's a good idea at all to start changing gene rarities unless it's an error. Clearly it wasn't an error after all this time. I will be pretty unhappy if a future change affects a pair I very carefully and intentionally gened.

[quote name="CinnamonThief" date="2023-03-22 04:24:23" ] [quote name="WindFox" date="2023-03-22 04:02:23" ] [quote name="str3ss" date="2023-03-22 03:33:00" ] i never even knew genes had rarities but can someone explain to me why this makes people want to change breeding pairs now ??? i genuinely don't understand [/quote] Because in breeding, the chance of offspring having a gene of one of the parents differs based on the rarity, people used spines against more common genes because it had lesser chance to appear in offsprings. [/quote] @str3ss To add an example to this: Say you had a pair where one mate has Spines and the other Capsule. Previously both of these genes were listed as limited rarity, so their offspring has a 50% chance of getting either. Now that Spines is uncommon, the chance of Spines increases to maybe 75% while only 25% of the offspring get Capsule. This messes with the expected output of the pairing. It can also be frustrating because higher rarity genes are generally more expensive, so you want that investment to pay off by the gene being passed on to offspring. I spent a couple months farming for Blossom, and by the end of that challenge I'd invested so much time and treasure that I won't ever pair that dragon with a mate that doesn't guarantee blossom hatchlings. [/quote] aaaaah okay, makes sense, i never knew any of that ! thank u both for explaining

str3ss

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March 22, 2023 04:35:51

CinnamonThief wrote on 2023-03-22 04:24:23:

WindFox wrote on 2023-03-22 04:02:23:

str3ss wrote on 2023-03-22 03:33:00:

i never even knew genes had rarities but can someone explain to me why this makes people want to change breeding pairs now ??? i genuinely don't understand

Because in breeding, the chance of offspring having a gene of one of the parents differs based on the rarity, people used spines against more common genes because it had lesser chance to appear in offsprings.

@str3ss
To add an example to this:

Say you had a pair where one mate has Spines and the other Capsule. Previously both of these genes were listed as limited rarity, so their offspring has a 50% chance of getting either.

Now that Spines is uncommon, the chance of Spines increases to maybe 75% while only 25% of the offspring get Capsule.

This messes with the expected output of the pairing. It can also be frustrating because higher rarity genes are generally more expensive, so you want that investment to pay off by the gene being passed on to offspring. I spent a couple months farming for Blossom, and by the end of that challenge I'd invested so much time and treasure that I won't ever pair that dragon with a mate that doesn't guarantee blossom hatchlings.

aaaaah okay, makes sense, i never knew any of that ! thank u both for explaining

[quote name="str3ss" date="2023-03-22 03:33:00" ] i never even knew genes had rarities but can someone explain to me why this makes people want to change breeding pairs now ??? i genuinely don't understand [/quote] Because of math. I need to redo my breeding pairs' tert genes because of math. Here is a chart of the rarity odds for genes taken from the [url=https://www1.flightrising.com/forums/gde/3109561][b]Breeding Rarity guide[/b][/url]: [center][img]https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/294842220027052032/868518216123686982/unknown.png[/img][/center] So prior to the update, Spines was a Limited rarity gene. I currently have a breeding pair where one dragon has Spines and the other has Veined, another Limited gene. This means that their hatchlings had about a 50/50 chance of inheriting either Spines or Veined. But now with Spines being changed to a lower rarity (Uncommon) my pair's tert odds are now [i]85%[/i] Spines and 15% Veined. In my personal experience, it's not worth having gene odds of anything less than 50/50. I know that sometimes RNG is gonna RNG, and even with 50/50 odds you'll get nests that are all one tert; but an increase to 85% odds is just too much for me. For some breeding pairs, I don't want mostly one gene being inherited by the hatchlings, I want a roughly even spread for variety. But with 85% odds, I might as well just give my pairs the exact same genes for a consistent look because I'm not going to see that 15% gene that often anyways. Hatchery breeding pairs aside, this change affects breeding projects in general as well. Any time you mess with the rarity of a gene, you are messing with players' breeding projects. The Breeding Rarity guide is one of the most valuable resources for dragon breeders because it allows us plan out which dragons are the best candidates for creating pairs. Any time you mess with a gene by moving it up or down (especially down) in rarity, you've potentially just screwed with someone's project. I don't have a problem with making the rarity of certain genes more consistent. I actually do appreciate changes made for the sake of consistency and/or for correcting mistakes that were not intended by the developers, which I think some of the gene inconsistencies are. (Hello Veilspun Stitched, acting like a gem gene.) I just don't appreciate this change being dropped without warning and without an [i]explanation[/i] for the change, and the fact that it's just one change to a single gene. Spines feels like it was cherry-picked for seemingly no reason. I'd probably be less annoyed if Gembond and Runes were also dropped down to Uncommon rarity with Spines, and then the Limited terts are all now either Baldwin, Swipp, or NotN. (Although Flecks should also be moved from Uncommon to Limited given that it's a Coli gene, but all the Coli genes across both Modern and Ancient breeds are inconsistent so whatever lmao.)

arcaneidolriots

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March 22, 2023 05:33:10

str3ss wrote on 2023-03-22 03:33:00:

i never even knew genes had rarities but can someone explain to me why this makes people want to change breeding pairs now ??? i genuinely don't understand

Because of math. I need to redo my breeding pairs' tert genes because of math.

Here is a chart of the rarity odds for genes taken from the Breeding Rarity guide:

So prior to the update, Spines was a Limited rarity gene. I currently have a breeding pair where one dragon has Spines and the other has Veined, another Limited gene. This means that their hatchlings had about a 50/50 chance of inheriting either Spines or Veined.

But now with Spines being changed to a lower rarity (Uncommon) my pair's tert odds are now 85% Spines and 15% Veined.

In my personal experience, it's not worth having gene odds of anything less than 50/50. I know that sometimes RNG is gonna RNG, and even with 50/50 odds you'll get nests that are all one tert; but an increase to 85% odds is just too much for me. For some breeding pairs, I don't want mostly one gene being inherited by the hatchlings, I want a roughly even spread for variety. But with 85% odds, I might as well just give my pairs the exact same genes for a consistent look because I'm not going to see that 15% gene that often anyways.

Hatchery breeding pairs aside, this change affects breeding projects in general as well. Any time you mess with the rarity of a gene, you are messing with players' breeding projects. The Breeding Rarity guide is one of the most valuable resources for dragon breeders because it allows us plan out which dragons are the best candidates for creating pairs. Any time you mess with a gene by moving it up or down (especially down) in rarity, you've potentially just screwed with someone's project.

I don't have a problem with making the rarity of certain genes more consistent. I actually do appreciate changes made for the sake of consistency and/or for correcting mistakes that were not intended by the developers, which I think some of the gene inconsistencies are. (Hello Veilspun Stitched, acting like a gem gene.)

I just don't appreciate this change being dropped without warning and without an explanation for the change, and the fact that it's just one change to a single gene. Spines feels like it was cherry-picked for seemingly no reason. I'd probably be less annoyed if Gembond and Runes were also dropped down to Uncommon rarity with Spines, and then the Limited terts are all now either Baldwin, Swipp, or NotN.

(Although Flecks should also be moved from Uncommon to Limited given that it's a Coli gene, but all the Coli genes across both Modern and Ancient breeds are inconsistent so whatever lmao.)

I wonder if it’s because today’s probably-upcoming-Ancient will have Spines?

Churrell

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March 22, 2023 05:45:49

I wonder if it’s because today’s probably-upcoming-Ancient will have Spines?

^^^

I agree
Maybe there was no time for an announcement because they are prepping for maintenance and they needed to fix it for the ancient

SerendipityShine

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March 22, 2023 05:53:51

^^^

I agree
Maybe there was no time for an announcement because they are prepping for maintenance and they needed to fix it for the ancient

Boop? BOOP!
If I missed your ping, PM me I will not see it otherwise. Thanks!

Wish they'd make Spines available for all the ancient breeds, tbh. It's such a useful tert it should be available for everything. But that's a sidenote.

I didn't even know it was a limited gene until now (I don't run a hatchery so I've admittedly never looked into it). Kinda weird tbh, since you can buy it in the marketplace, it's not terribly expensive, and a lot of people (incl. me) just use it to save an awkward tert color. Uncommon makes more sense, but yeah I can see where it'd mess with breeding pairs to change it suddenly.

Civen

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March 22, 2023 05:57:55

Wish they'd make Spines available for all the ancient breeds, tbh. It's such a useful tert it should be available for everything. But that's a sidenote.

I didn't even know it was a limited gene until now (I don't run a hatchery so I've admittedly never looked into it). Kinda weird tbh, since you can buy it in the marketplace, it's not terribly expensive, and a lot of people (incl. me) just use it to save an awkward tert color. Uncommon makes more sense, but yeah I can see where it'd mess with breeding pairs to change it suddenly.