What confuses me is why you'd want to stick to the modern rule of dragon design when you have so many other options available to you. It's so disappointing now to see how much more creative and inspired the guesses are for each upcoming ancient compared to what we end up getting. As RedWillia put it, if they're not breaking the mold...what's the point? I'm personally getting bored with them. They're coming out so fast my mentality has become "oh...another one...alright...". I like my 2 hatchlings, I love the Petrified and Lode genes, but that's about it.
If they're set on doing 2 per year (I wish they'd drop it down to 1 every 8 months to a year), they need to start pushing the limits of what they can do given the lack of rules.
Look at what we get on Dragcave that breaks the modern rule and would make great ancients. Just going through my own meager collection of dragons (and the March dragon release I don't have yet);
[img]https://s-s.dcave.net/cache/images/1/1163y7g.png[/img][img]https://s-s.dcave.net/cache/images/1/1d1nsqx.png[/img][img]https://s-s.dcave.net/cache/images/u/umazav.png[/img][img]https://s-s.dcave.net/cache/images/1/1vd1uwl.png[/img][img]https://s-s.dcave.net/cache/images/1/15y5clx.png[/img][img]https://s-s.dcave.net/cache/images/g/grvkvi.png[/img][img]https://s-s.dcave.net/cache/images/1/1oi9gcs.png[/img][img]https://s-s.dcave.net/cache/images/l/lci8sv.png[/img][img]https://s-s.dcave.net/cache/images/1/1pv00o1.png[/img]
And that's probably missing even more uniquely designed dragons I don't have yet. Take inspiration from them! One of the best things about dragons is how broadly defined that term can be. I can't think of any other fantasy creature that allows for so much diversity. Take advantage of it with ancients!! Please!
Oh, I totally agree that Ancients not breaking the mold is a huge disapointment ! I don't know if I'd call them completely worthless even if they don't - some people probably enjoy having breed release more often, and I don't think "Oh X percentage of the userbase wouldn't notice if Y breed vanished" (I know I wouldn't notice if Wildclaws were gone, so I guess I'm not a good example of that anyway lmao) really matters here...
That being said, looking at the post above mine and seeing those funky little guys really makes the Ancients looks a little sad. And hey, we don't even need to look at other games - Real life dragons (... you know what I mean ^^) have been ignoring molds for as long as they have existed !
[img]https://static.bangkokpost.com/media/content/dcx/2022/11/02/4508225.jpg[/img]
[img]https://cdn.essentiels.bnf.fr/media/images/cache/crop/rc/dBQbktpL/uploads/media/image/20240206115047000000_drag_03.jpg[/img]
[img]https://cdn.essentiels.bnf.fr/media/images/cache/crop/rc/cbk80sNb/uploads/media/image/20240206113614000000_drag_14.jpg[/img]
Oh, I totally agree that Ancients not breaking the mold is a huge disapointment ! I don't know if I'd call them completely worthless even if they don't - some people probably enjoy having breed release more often, and I don't think "Oh X percentage of the userbase wouldn't notice if Y breed vanished" (I know I wouldn't notice if Wildclaws were gone, so I guess I'm not a good example of that anyway lmao) really matters here...
That being said, looking at the post above mine and seeing those funky little guys really makes the Ancients looks a little sad. And hey, we don't even need to look at other games - Real life dragons (... you know what I mean ^^) have been ignoring molds for as long as they have existed !
even if "point of ancient isn't to break the mold", we can still wish for more dragons that do break the mold. I absolutely wanna see them more, even if I don't like what they come up with I can still appriciate that it is something different. I like classic dragons (4 limbs 1 head 2 wings 1 tail) for sure but I would love to see something... bit more. esp as since they can't wear apparel, I wanna see something more going on with design, more neat little details/features
tbh at this point they should get wild. people don't need to like every breed and with how fast they are coming out, there could be dragons that don't appeal to wider audience (as someone who is not target audience for chonky breeds. I do not care for them but I think they are valid and they should make them). you will have breed or two that will appeal to you more
Support, and yes please! I do love the concept of the current Ancients but I agree that one shouldn't be afraid to try new ideas out. For example, an Ancient with a shell, with the secondaries going on to it (there can still be wings if necessary!), or even a manta ray-like dragon with a flat body, and with the secondary on the wings fading to the body. I would also love to see more variations in the body shapes (especially chunky and slick (not noodle) shapes!). Personally, I would love to see more classical, fierce dragons, but more variation would be good enough for me :)
Support, and yes please! I do love the concept of the current Ancients but I agree that one shouldn't be afraid to try new ideas out. For example, an Ancient with a shell, with the secondaries going on to it (there can still be wings if necessary!), or even a manta ray-like dragon with a flat body, and with the secondary on the wings fading to the body. I would also love to see more variations in the body shapes (especially chunky and slick (not noodle) shapes!). Personally, I would love to see more classical, fierce dragons, but more variation would be good enough for me :)
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Like someone else pointed out, all the ancients we've had up to this point do break the mold though? Granted some are subtler than others but they all do.
Gaolers have tiny vestigial wings that are basically an extra pair of arms
Veilspuns have four wings (on the males and hatchies) and their crazy hair
Banescales have no arms
Undertides have no arms or legs
Aethers have six arms/legs and four wings
Auraboas have no legs and four wings, technically six if you count the arm wings
Abbys have two heads and two tails
Sandsurge have no wings
Dusthides are the first one we've gotten that actually 100% follows the modern template with no variation. I understand wanting more extreme divergences from the modern template but to say ancients haven't been breaking the mold is just not true.
Like someone else pointed out, all the ancients we've had up to this point do break the mold though? Granted some are subtler than others but they all do.
Gaolers have tiny vestigial wings that are basically an extra pair of arms
Veilspuns have four wings (on the males and hatchies) and their crazy hair
Banescales have no arms
Undertides have no arms or legs
Aethers have six arms/legs and four wings
Auraboas have no legs and four wings, technically six if you count the arm wings
Abbys have two heads and two tails
Sandsurge have no wings
Dusthides are the first one we've gotten that actually 100% follows the modern template with no variation. I understand wanting more extreme divergences from the modern template but to say ancients haven't been breaking the mold is just not true.
[quote name="NatsuWolf" date="2024-04-18 09:03:23" ]
Like someone else pointed out, all the ancients we've had up to this point do break the mold though? Granted some are subtler than others but they all do.
Gaolers have tiny vestigial wings that are basically an extra pair of arms
Veilspuns have four wings (on the males and hatchies) and their crazy hair
Banescales have no arms
Undertides have no arms or legs
Aethers have six arms/legs and four wings
Auraboas have no legs and four wings, technically six if you count the arm wings
Abbys have two heads and two tails
Sandsurge have no wings
Dusthides are the first one we've gotten that actually 100% follows the modern template with no variation. I understand wanting more extreme divergences from the modern template but to say ancients haven't been breaking the mold is just not true.
[/quote]
Alright. I feel like. Half of these points on the side of "breaking the mold" (most egregiously, the Gaolers) are talking about something completely different than what I think most people are complaining about in "the mold." (Probably conflated with [url=https://www1.flightrising.com/forums/frd/3329820]this concurrent thread[/url], which is talking about the body [i]shapes[/i], not the body [i]template[/i].)
This is the mold: The “[url=https://www1.flightrising.com/forums/ann/2666061#post_2666061]one head, four legs, two wings, one tail[/url]” template that Moderns follow [i]because[/i] they "need to wear apparel."
[List][*]Gaolers do not break the mold. At all. They have six limbs, four of which are legs/arms and two of which are wings. Their design requires no modification to be able to wear all apparel types.
[*]Veilspuns may technically have four wings (I disagree), but they are drawn as if they are two. Manes are not limbs, so I don't know why you'd bring it up. The point is that Veilspuns would require no modification to their body design (including their manes) to be considered Modern.
[*]Sandsurges have features that pass for wings in the Rule - whether they technically have wing bones or whatever doesn't matter. Whether wing apparel could have been modified (as much as on any breed) and not [i]removed entirely[/i] to accommodate it is what matters.
[*]And speaking of subtlety, Aethers have six legs, but some people still aren't aware of this. Like Veilspuns, they have two wings. Nobody would argue that Coatls have an Ancient body type because they have four wings, even though they do. Because [i]it's about apparel[/i]. And since it's about apparel, the males are practically Modern. So I guess they attribute half credit for the "is it Modern" rule.
[*]And, of course, the Dusthides, which would require no modification at all to be able to accommodate all apparel types.[/list]
The question I think most people seem to have is not whether these dragons are Ancients, because there is no Rule confining them. The question is whether they are Moderns: following the rules that would allow them to wear apparel (and therefore contribute to the "backlog," the reason Moderns cannot be released quickly). Four out of nine have a Modern body type.
I don't think it's beyond reason to ask that Ancients be given their own Rule that wouldn't result in a dragon that could be mistaken for a Modern because it follows all the rules, like Gaolers do.
NatsuWolf wrote on 2024-04-18 09:03:23:
Like someone else pointed out, all the ancients we've had up to this point do break the mold though? Granted some are subtler than others but they all do.
Gaolers have tiny vestigial wings that are basically an extra pair of arms
Veilspuns have four wings (on the males and hatchies) and their crazy hair
Banescales have no arms
Undertides have no arms or legs
Aethers have six arms/legs and four wings
Auraboas have no legs and four wings, technically six if you count the arm wings
Abbys have two heads and two tails
Sandsurge have no wings
Dusthides are the first one we've gotten that actually 100% follows the modern template with no variation. I understand wanting more extreme divergences from the modern template but to say ancients haven't been breaking the mold is just not true.
Alright. I feel like. Half of these points on the side of "breaking the mold" (most egregiously, the Gaolers) are talking about something completely different than what I think most people are complaining about in "the mold." (Probably conflated with
this concurrent thread, which is talking about the body
shapes, not the body
template.)
This is the mold: The “
one head, four legs, two wings, one tail” template that Moderns follow
because they "need to wear apparel."
- Gaolers do not break the mold. At all. They have six limbs, four of which are legs/arms and two of which are wings. Their design requires no modification to be able to wear all apparel types.
- Veilspuns may technically have four wings (I disagree), but they are drawn as if they are two. Manes are not limbs, so I don't know why you'd bring it up. The point is that Veilspuns would require no modification to their body design (including their manes) to be considered Modern.
- Sandsurges have features that pass for wings in the Rule - whether they technically have wing bones or whatever doesn't matter. Whether wing apparel could have been modified (as much as on any breed) and not removed entirely to accommodate it is what matters.
- And speaking of subtlety, Aethers have six legs, but some people still aren't aware of this. Like Veilspuns, they have two wings. Nobody would argue that Coatls have an Ancient body type because they have four wings, even though they do. Because it's about apparel. And since it's about apparel, the males are practically Modern. So I guess they attribute half credit for the "is it Modern" rule.
- And, of course, the Dusthides, which would require no modification at all to be able to accommodate all apparel types.
The question I think most people seem to have is not whether these dragons are Ancients, because there is no Rule confining them. The question is whether they are Moderns: following the rules that would allow them to wear apparel (and therefore contribute to the "backlog," the reason Moderns cannot be released quickly). Four out of nine have a Modern body type.
I don't think it's beyond reason to ask that Ancients be given their own Rule that wouldn't result in a dragon that could be mistaken for a Modern because it follows all the rules, like Gaolers do.
[quote name="NatsuWolf" date="2024-04-18 09:03:23" ]
Like someone else pointed out, all the ancients we've had up to this point do break the mold though? Granted some are subtler than others but they all do.
(Snipped list to allow this quote to be smaller)
Dusthides are the first one we've gotten that actually 100% follows the modern template with no variation. I understand wanting more extreme divergences from the modern template but to say ancients haven't been breaking the mold is just not true.
[/quote]
I would actually say Dusthide potentially breaks the mold, it’s just potentially extremely subtle than the others. They seem to have a one-clawed hand and for both fore claws, the middle is pretty large (Though that size could be a stretch to mention). I would also say their tail doesn’t seem to take a cylinder shape (or perhaps close enough if little more elliptical). This may make apparel like tail rings a bit awkward to fit, but not necessarily impossible.
NatsuWolf wrote on 2024-04-18 09:03:23:
Like someone else pointed out, all the ancients we've had up to this point do break the mold though? Granted some are subtler than others but they all do.
(Snipped list to allow this quote to be smaller)
Dusthides are the first one we've gotten that actually 100% follows the modern template with no variation. I understand wanting more extreme divergences from the modern template but to say ancients haven't been breaking the mold is just not true.
I would actually say Dusthide potentially breaks the mold, it’s just potentially extremely subtle than the others. They seem to have a one-clawed hand and for both fore claws, the middle is pretty large (Though that size could be a stretch to mention). I would also say their tail doesn’t seem to take a cylinder shape (or perhaps close enough if little more elliptical). This may make apparel like tail rings a bit awkward to fit, but not necessarily impossible.
Honestly I am in the end worried that we will get the next two ancients within this year, not letting any of this cook. And we end up with both fitting into the mold, and enevitably end up being disapointing. Like, me specificly I WANT them to give us something multied winged and something truely ANCIENT. Like I just want them to take their time. Really I think they are pushing these guys out out of fear that the player base drops. So they just keep pushing ancients which are "easier" to produce.
I am a certified ancient enjoyer. So it does worry me.
Honestly I am in the end worried that we will get the next two ancients within this year, not letting any of this cook. And we end up with both fitting into the mold, and enevitably end up being disapointing. Like, me specificly I WANT them to give us something multied winged and something truely ANCIENT. Like I just want them to take their time. Really I think they are pushing these guys out out of fear that the player base drops. So they just keep pushing ancients which are "easier" to produce.
I am a certified ancient enjoyer. So it does worry me.
[quote name="QuickFish" date="2024-04-18 13:03:14" ]
Honestly I am in the end worried that we will get the next two ancients within this year, not letting any of this cook. And we end up with both fitting into the mold, and enevitably end up being disapointing. Like, me specificly I WANT them to give us something multied winged and something truely ANCIENT. Like I just want them to take their time. Really I think they are pushing these guys out out of fear that the player base drops. So they just keep pushing ancients which are "easier" to produce.
I am a certified ancient enjoyer. So it does worry me.
[/quote]
Yeah, that also would be a concern of mine. I really hope they’re not overdoing this within their time limits. 3 ancients or more year feels too much, and they seem more prone to errors than longer waits.
QuickFish wrote on 2024-04-18 13:03:14:
Honestly I am in the end worried that we will get the next two ancients within this year, not letting any of this cook. And we end up with both fitting into the mold, and enevitably end up being disapointing. Like, me specificly I WANT them to give us something multied winged and something truely ANCIENT. Like I just want them to take their time. Really I think they are pushing these guys out out of fear that the player base drops. So they just keep pushing ancients which are "easier" to produce.
I am a certified ancient enjoyer. So it does worry me.
Yeah, that also would be a concern of mine. I really hope they’re not overdoing this within their time limits. 3 ancients or more year feels too much, and they seem more prone to errors than longer waits.
Support, to me Undertides, Banescales, Sandsurges, and Auraboas are great examples of what ancients can be. So it's a bit disappointing to see dragons that still follow the 4 legs, 2 wings, 1 tail idea. I would like to see more ancients that break the mold, even if they take longer to release. It's probably not possible, but I would like to see the current "modern" like ancients to get redesigns. Granted, due to skins and accents this would be nearly impossible without a large amount of refund to buyers and skin makers.
Support, to me Undertides, Banescales, Sandsurges, and Auraboas are great examples of what ancients can be. So it's a bit disappointing to see dragons that still follow the 4 legs, 2 wings, 1 tail idea. I would like to see more ancients that break the mold, even if they take longer to release. It's probably not possible, but I would like to see the current "modern" like ancients to get redesigns. Granted, due to skins and accents this would be nearly impossible without a large amount of refund to buyers and skin makers.
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