[quote name="Winterdreary" date=2017-11-21 11:24:47]
I think continuing down this road of doing polls and then ///promising/// the current community this and that is an exceptionally bad idea, especially for a site claiming to be in it for the long term. By all means ///take opinions/// from the current community during the development of the site, but the decisions you make need to be based on what is reasonable and logical in relation to all that you know about what you intend on doing with the site AND a continuously growing user base.
It is OBVIOUS with the direction you are going with the site right now that the bears should be included in Joxar's inventory, end of story. Yes, some users might be upset at first, that's always the case, but how can you seriously offer the community the choice between what is ///obviously logical/// and in line with your ideas for the site AND ///insanely illogical/// and only makes sense if you heed to some people's selfish desires and initial emotional response to change. I neither see the logic nor point of restricting your own artistic framework by making these promises to the user base. Because then you are stuck with things like "retired will always be retired" and "new progens will not have colours from the new colour wheel" and the discontinuity of the festival items by keeping some of them retired and some cycled. NONE OF WHICH MAKES ANY SENSE WHATSOEVER.
As a user who joined this site AFTER those promises were already made and who seriously had NO IDEA that the festival items she was working so hard to acquire would become cycled and consequently useless in comparison to the retired items; I can only say that I'm VERY disappointed in all of those promises and it feels like this site is VERY pro old players. And I have no doubt that if you continue doing it this way, future new users will become equally, if not more, disappointed and only older and privileged users will remain.
At least I'm glad I have never spent any real money on this site so far, because now that I know more about how the site operates and favours elitism and older users, I'm starting to feel it might not be worth the time and effort after all. Retired items will become harder and harder to acquire and some will eventually disappear from the market no matter if I stay loyal to the site or not, and all because I joined the site at the worst possible time. And I don't see how newer users are ever going to be able to compete with or get the same perks as users who joined in 2013-2015, no matter how many years you stay on the site. If ///for example/// all Light Sprites are spent, well, then they are all spent. No amount of years on the site will be able to fix that. Ever.
The only reason I'm even bothering writing this down is because I love dragons and I feel that the site has so much potential, and I see what the site COULD BE. It makes me sad, that's all.
[/quote]
this is a really good summary of what i've been thinking tbh
Winterdreary wrote on 2017-11-21:
I think continuing down this road of doing polls and then ///promising/// the current community this and that is an exceptionally bad idea, especially for a site claiming to be in it for the long term. By all means ///take opinions/// from the current community during the development of the site, but the decisions you make need to be based on what is reasonable and logical in relation to all that you know about what you intend on doing with the site AND a continuously growing user base.
It is OBVIOUS with the direction you are going with the site right now that the bears should be included in Joxar's inventory, end of story. Yes, some users might be upset at first, that's always the case, but how can you seriously offer the community the choice between what is ///obviously logical/// and in line with your ideas for the site AND ///insanely illogical/// and only makes sense if you heed to some people's selfish desires and initial emotional response to change. I neither see the logic nor point of restricting your own artistic framework by making these promises to the user base. Because then you are stuck with things like "retired will always be retired" and "new progens will not have colours from the new colour wheel" and the discontinuity of the festival items by keeping some of them retired and some cycled. NONE OF WHICH MAKES ANY SENSE WHATSOEVER.
As a user who joined this site AFTER those promises were already made and who seriously had NO IDEA that the festival items she was working so hard to acquire would become cycled and consequently useless in comparison to the retired items; I can only say that I'm VERY disappointed in all of those promises and it feels like this site is VERY pro old players. And I have no doubt that if you continue doing it this way, future new users will become equally, if not more, disappointed and only older and privileged users will remain.
At least I'm glad I have never spent any real money on this site so far, because now that I know more about how the site operates and favours elitism and older users, I'm starting to feel it might not be worth the time and effort after all. Retired items will become harder and harder to acquire and some will eventually disappear from the market no matter if I stay loyal to the site or not, and all because I joined the site at the worst possible time. And I don't see how newer users are ever going to be able to compete with or get the same perks as users who joined in 2013-2015, no matter how many years you stay on the site. If ///for example/// all Light Sprites are spent, well, then they are all spent. No amount of years on the site will be able to fix that. Ever.
The only reason I'm even bothering writing this down is because I love dragons and I feel that the site has so much potential, and I see what the site COULD BE. It makes me sad, that's all.
this is a really good summary of what i've been thinking tbh
I wrote an entire spiel a few pages back. But now that I am in a better state of mind, I'll reiterate my point and spell it out simply
Not counting user-made skins: there are VERY FEW items that hold real value. Which provides little to no incentive to play games or vend or even buy gems. What is the point to quest items if everything is made available at deflated prices. It's not a quest or 'dream item' if you can have pretty much anything you want within a few hours of game time. Let's be honest here, unless you're heavily involved in your flight's communities and doing fourm based activities, there isn't much keeping anyone logged in beyond doing dailies, and checking back for the monthly holiday events. At any rate, holiday exclusive items, yes, including the bears, should absolutely retire. Those items should be treated as special because it is an event item. An event you were present for. It's not right that these items should keep being re-released because it really makes someone not want to even bother participating in the event at all when they could just buy the 'exclusive' items for next to nothing. Those who bother to grind the coli and put in the effort for these 'exclusive' items should absolutely be rewarded. If you play a game, you should reap the benefits. That being said, over time, past event items should increase in value, and those who stick around that long to their accounts should be able to profit from that. Literally why does Flight Rising have an issue with this concept. It's so basic and other websites have this down to an art. Even the ones that end up re-releasing older items have the decency to wait several years before bringing them back.
I wrote an entire spiel a few pages back. But now that I am in a better state of mind, I'll reiterate my point and spell it out simply
Not counting user-made skins: there are VERY FEW items that hold real value. Which provides little to no incentive to play games or vend or even buy gems. What is the point to quest items if everything is made available at deflated prices. It's not a quest or 'dream item' if you can have pretty much anything you want within a few hours of game time. Let's be honest here, unless you're heavily involved in your flight's communities and doing fourm based activities, there isn't much keeping anyone logged in beyond doing dailies, and checking back for the monthly holiday events. At any rate, holiday exclusive items, yes, including the bears, should absolutely retire. Those items should be treated as special because it is an event item. An event you were present for. It's not right that these items should keep being re-released because it really makes someone not want to even bother participating in the event at all when they could just buy the 'exclusive' items for next to nothing. Those who bother to grind the coli and put in the effort for these 'exclusive' items should absolutely be rewarded. If you play a game, you should reap the benefits. That being said, over time, past event items should increase in value, and those who stick around that long to their accounts should be able to profit from that. Literally why does Flight Rising have an issue with this concept. It's so basic and other websites have this down to an art. Even the ones that end up re-releasing older items have the decency to wait several years before bringing them back.
@
Aequorin
I hope you guys will consider just removing the Bears entirely and finally retiring them. Afaik they're the ONLY Festival Familiar that didn't get retired, but why? Why were they never permanently cycled out like every other Familiar from Festivals?
I'm pretty sure you can see by all the posts of people saying "fully retire the Bears" that A LOT of us are tired of them. They're so devalued that it's ridiculous. Most of us are swimming in the darn things at this point after several years of NotN.
Plus there's the fact that we already have all these other things we can get in the Strange Chests, things that we get less because of the fact that there's twenty-two useless Familiars cluttering the item pool. Removing them will allow people a better chance of getting the items they actually want and/or need.
But putting the bears into Joxar's boxes is, as others have mentioned, a terrible idea. If the Bear is one of the items from the 'normal' pool, then you're going to have people paying 80kt getting a Familiar that's worth a fraction of that price, and people are going to be just as upset over that as they were over the numerous issues of the first NotN. Now if they're part of the 'you might pull this as a bonus IN ADDITION to the other items' pool for the Spare Inventory boxes, then that would be all right I guess.
tl;dr: Retire the Bears permanently. There's no reason to still have them around when every other Festival Familiar has been retired after its initial release. If for some strange reason that's not possible, then put them in Joxar's boxes as a potential bonus item. I still don't like that idea too much though because it lowers the chance of getting rarer, more desired bonus items, with twenty-two more useless things added to the pool.
@
Aequorin
I hope you guys will consider just removing the Bears entirely and finally retiring them. Afaik they're the ONLY Festival Familiar that didn't get retired, but why? Why were they never permanently cycled out like every other Familiar from Festivals?
I'm pretty sure you can see by all the posts of people saying "fully retire the Bears" that A LOT of us are tired of them. They're so devalued that it's ridiculous. Most of us are swimming in the darn things at this point after several years of NotN.
Plus there's the fact that we already have all these other things we can get in the Strange Chests, things that we get less because of the fact that there's twenty-two useless Familiars cluttering the item pool. Removing them will allow people a better chance of getting the items they actually want and/or need.
But putting the bears into Joxar's boxes is, as others have mentioned, a terrible idea. If the Bear is one of the items from the 'normal' pool, then you're going to have people paying 80kt getting a Familiar that's worth a fraction of that price, and people are going to be just as upset over that as they were over the numerous issues of the first NotN. Now if they're part of the 'you might pull this as a bonus IN ADDITION to the other items' pool for the Spare Inventory boxes, then that would be all right I guess.
tl;dr: Retire the Bears permanently. There's no reason to still have them around when every other Festival Familiar has been retired after its initial release. If for some strange reason that's not possible, then put them in Joxar's boxes as a potential bonus item. I still don't like that idea too much though because it lowers the chance of getting rarer, more desired bonus items, with twenty-two more useless things added to the pool.
NotN is lovely and fun, and I appreciate having things be available again for subsequent seasons because it means it's just light-hearted fun. As opposed to a high-pressure grind-fest that most festivals are (especially when, like me, you have been eternally cursed by RNGs), right in the middle of a busy season. But there should probably be a point at which items shift over to Joxar's shop, or become a rarer drop. Just to prevent the site from becoming completely overrun, especially as new players continue to join and our population increases.
I think having the bears available in Joxar's inventory would be fine, but please please please, do it for the price of a token. There's already so much content popping up out of the randomized chests, which will also grow. I also feel like having it be in the shop as opposed to in a chest would be more in-keeping with the spirit of NotN.
NotN is lovely and fun, and I appreciate having things be available again for subsequent seasons because it means it's just light-hearted fun. As opposed to a high-pressure grind-fest that most festivals are (especially when, like me, you have been eternally cursed by RNGs), right in the middle of a busy season. But there should probably be a point at which items shift over to Joxar's shop, or become a rarer drop. Just to prevent the site from becoming completely overrun, especially as new players continue to join and our population increases.
I think having the bears available in Joxar's inventory would be fine, but please please please, do it for the price of a token. There's already so much content popping up out of the randomized chests, which will also grow. I also feel like having it be in the shop as opposed to in a chest would be more in-keeping with the spirit of NotN.
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@
Jemadar
Ah yes, I get what you mean regarding not requiring valuable items to have fun. It's perfectly fine if you had fun in the NotN too. I was mainly referring to the problematic side of having event items, which are supposed to be special, constantly cycling back and killing the demand for both newbies and veteran players, since you happened to touch that subject. Unlike you I don't see it as a good thing and felt the need to point out why. That's all.
Unfortunately NotN hasn't been a fun event for me at all and every year I groan at the mention of it, because I find it a very badly managed, unnecessary event. Of course there's always a market for the NotN stuff, but what I meant was that most people would still rather get everything without burning treasure on it, specially considering the huge amount of apparel and familiars to collect, and therefore they still get frustrated over not being able to fully participate in the event in such a busy time of the year. And yeah, while not everyone is necessarily busy on december, the amount of people who are do make a majority due to the combination of holidays at that time of the year, so it's very important to take that in consideration to set up such a grind-heavy event. Honestly, if it was a regular elemental festival it wouldn't irk me so much, but NotN is basically two weeks of nonstop intense coligrinding that not only is a downright tedious mechanics to many, but very time consuming as well. It disrupts the schedules of those busier people way more than a elemental festival would.
Regarding dragons, I'm not asking for more breed-based events, I just find it extremely inconsistent within FR's lore and gameplay that this one breed, which isn't even special anymore, gets a whole event dedicated to it. Sure in the lore dragons could be treated differently from breed to breed... but they aren't. That's the point. We may have different
ways to get one(some have available scrolls, other don't) based on their canon rarity, but all breeds have been pretty much equal so far when it comes to FR as a whole... except nocturnes. For some reason they get an entire event that lasts longer than regular festivals AND has a ton more rewards. That kind of inconsistency really breaks the game logic and lore immersion as well. -.-'
@
Jemadar
Ah yes, I get what you mean regarding not requiring valuable items to have fun. It's perfectly fine if you had fun in the NotN too. I was mainly referring to the problematic side of having event items, which are supposed to be special, constantly cycling back and killing the demand for both newbies and veteran players, since you happened to touch that subject. Unlike you I don't see it as a good thing and felt the need to point out why. That's all.
Unfortunately NotN hasn't been a fun event for me at all and every year I groan at the mention of it, because I find it a very badly managed, unnecessary event. Of course there's always a market for the NotN stuff, but what I meant was that most people would still rather get everything without burning treasure on it, specially considering the huge amount of apparel and familiars to collect, and therefore they still get frustrated over not being able to fully participate in the event in such a busy time of the year. And yeah, while not everyone is necessarily busy on december, the amount of people who are do make a majority due to the combination of holidays at that time of the year, so it's very important to take that in consideration to set up such a grind-heavy event. Honestly, if it was a regular elemental festival it wouldn't irk me so much, but NotN is basically two weeks of nonstop intense coligrinding that not only is a downright tedious mechanics to many, but very time consuming as well. It disrupts the schedules of those busier people way more than a elemental festival would.
Regarding dragons, I'm not asking for more breed-based events, I just find it extremely inconsistent within FR's lore and gameplay that this one breed, which isn't even special anymore, gets a whole event dedicated to it. Sure in the lore dragons could be treated differently from breed to breed... but they aren't. That's the point. We may have different
ways to get one(some have available scrolls, other don't) based on their canon rarity, but all breeds have been pretty much equal so far when it comes to FR as a whole... except nocturnes. For some reason they get an entire event that lasts longer than regular festivals AND has a ton more rewards. That kind of inconsistency really breaks the game logic and lore immersion as well. -.-'
I voted Joxar but I'm with everyone saying they'd rather the damn bears retire. They don't need to be "available" to new players, they're already cheap on the AH. New players could easily collect them. Hell people would probably GIVE them bears.
I voted Joxar but I'm with everyone saying they'd rather the damn bears retire. They don't need to be "available" to new players, they're already cheap on the AH. New players could easily collect them. Hell people would probably GIVE them bears.
I just voted to put them in Joxar's box, but honestly I'm kinda starting to regret it. Like many others have said, there should have been an option to just retire the bears completely. I see no harm being done here, since the bears are already dirt cheap now and it wouldn't be unfair to any new players who want them. There are plenty of bears to keep selling for quite a while at a low price, and retiring them would just keep the cluster out of current chests.
Yeah, it gets a little annoying constantly getting bears in NotN chests. I've honestly never gotten a Nocturne egg before. I do get a bunch of bears, though. So yeah, it'd be nice to see them out of the chest spawns for NotN, but....... on the other hand, Joxar boxes cost 80kt. People are already pretty annoyed to get crowns in the boxes, let alone bears. At least NotN chests are free, you just have to spend enough time and they'll eventually start spawning. Joxar chests cost a lot of money. Paying way more than you need to for a bear would really suck.
Just let the bears be free. The elementals retired, I don't see why the bears can't retire, too.
I just voted to put them in Joxar's box, but honestly I'm kinda starting to regret it. Like many others have said, there should have been an option to just retire the bears completely. I see no harm being done here, since the bears are already dirt cheap now and it wouldn't be unfair to any new players who want them. There are plenty of bears to keep selling for quite a while at a low price, and retiring them would just keep the cluster out of current chests.
Yeah, it gets a little annoying constantly getting bears in NotN chests. I've honestly never gotten a Nocturne egg before. I do get a bunch of bears, though. So yeah, it'd be nice to see them out of the chest spawns for NotN, but....... on the other hand, Joxar boxes cost 80kt. People are already pretty annoyed to get crowns in the boxes, let alone bears. At least NotN chests are free, you just have to spend enough time and they'll eventually start spawning. Joxar chests cost a lot of money. Paying way more than you need to for a bear would really suck.
Just let the bears be free. The elementals retired, I don't see why the bears can't retire, too.
Please, just retire them already.
Please, just retire them already.
Oh man so many older players just want them to retire and I didn't even know that they exist
Oh man so many older players just want them to retire and I didn't even know that they exist
@
Lilian
That is what I was saying, instead of trying to make Nocturnes the same as all other dragons, elevate the others to nocturne status and give them their own special times. As I said, it doesn't have to be a huge deal like the nocturnes got. Nocturnes get treated special because in the lore, that is the only time they are active, thus, canonically the only time you can get eggs and scrolls from them. I wouldn't mind them moving Nocturnes to the 'back' and making the event more about mimicry and dealing with the Nocturnes nature, but I really don't see a problem in having some breeds getting different treatment. They aren't real and as I said, it makes nocturnes seem different from other breeds. Which again, is why I said, instead of removing their event (ignoring other issues brought up about it) give the other dragons their own special handling in lore and possibly one day events or maybe even weekend long events every year.
As for the other issues, as much as I am an advocate for trying to include as much of a userbase as possible (on any site I play) and make it fun for as many people as possible, I also realize that you can't please everyone, nor is there a good time for everyone. For some people certain festivals probably fall during times they consider super stressful and/or just super busy. I think that this would be a time when it becomes each users responsibility to decide what is right for themselves. I hesitate to say that because I am someone who really HATES the logic of 'you don't HAVE to participate in the event' when someone points out the flaws of the events, (this is usually on FB games where they are geared towards higher level players or those who buy the premium currency) but there does come a point when the game simply cannot cater to every person on site. I have had to quit events before because they were stressing me out, and I hated it, but ultimately I had to make that decision for myself.
I also don't think we are ever going to agree because I don't think the NotN stuff was supposed to be valuable, but rather just stuff to collect and use. I also don't think that every event item is supposed to be 'special' nor needs to be. I also think that there are better ways to retain value of items than simply retiring retiring them(it would take careful management but I think it could be done), and making it super limited in supply.
I don't intensely coligrind more than the first day or two of NotN, yet I usually manage to get everything I want, especially with the swipp swaps for the stuff from the coliseum. I would also hate for it to be like a regular festival because those tend to stress me out more due to the one week limit.
Anyway, I hope I didn't come across as rude (I tried very hard not to) but I doubt that we will ever agree, as I said earlier. I hope you have fun with the next festival.
@
Lilian
That is what I was saying, instead of trying to make Nocturnes the same as all other dragons, elevate the others to nocturne status and give them their own special times. As I said, it doesn't have to be a huge deal like the nocturnes got. Nocturnes get treated special because in the lore, that is the only time they are active, thus, canonically the only time you can get eggs and scrolls from them. I wouldn't mind them moving Nocturnes to the 'back' and making the event more about mimicry and dealing with the Nocturnes nature, but I really don't see a problem in having some breeds getting different treatment. They aren't real and as I said, it makes nocturnes seem different from other breeds. Which again, is why I said, instead of removing their event (ignoring other issues brought up about it) give the other dragons their own special handling in lore and possibly one day events or maybe even weekend long events every year.
As for the other issues, as much as I am an advocate for trying to include as much of a userbase as possible (on any site I play) and make it fun for as many people as possible, I also realize that you can't please everyone, nor is there a good time for everyone. For some people certain festivals probably fall during times they consider super stressful and/or just super busy. I think that this would be a time when it becomes each users responsibility to decide what is right for themselves. I hesitate to say that because I am someone who really HATES the logic of 'you don't HAVE to participate in the event' when someone points out the flaws of the events, (this is usually on FB games where they are geared towards higher level players or those who buy the premium currency) but there does come a point when the game simply cannot cater to every person on site. I have had to quit events before because they were stressing me out, and I hated it, but ultimately I had to make that decision for myself.
I also don't think we are ever going to agree because I don't think the NotN stuff was supposed to be valuable, but rather just stuff to collect and use. I also don't think that every event item is supposed to be 'special' nor needs to be. I also think that there are better ways to retain value of items than simply retiring retiring them(it would take careful management but I think it could be done), and making it super limited in supply.
I don't intensely coligrind more than the first day or two of NotN, yet I usually manage to get everything I want, especially with the swipp swaps for the stuff from the coliseum. I would also hate for it to be like a regular festival because those tend to stress me out more due to the one week limit.
Anyway, I hope I didn't come across as rude (I tried very hard not to) but I doubt that we will ever agree, as I said earlier. I hope you have fun with the next festival.
