I don't see the issue with the new enemy requiring 123str for rally eliminate. Yes, we have to drop some vitality or use scratch + elim, but so what? We can still one shot everything except the bosses.
As far as I and a bunch of other Ice trainers (who are preparing for a dom battle, as a reminder), the new 123str is just as fast and levels at roughly the same pace as the old Mire build. Does it sometimes require more resetting or refreshing for specific packs? Maybe. In the long term though, I imagine it will even out to be within a few seconds of the old Mire and current Ruins builds. Even if it did slow down leveling in the Mire, the Ruins is till viable right now, and if we have to level slower, so be it.
But I don't find it slower, and I very much appreciate that Lightning is now a viable element.
I don't see the issue with the new enemy requiring 123str for rally eliminate. Yes, we have to drop some vitality or use scratch + elim, but so what? We can still one shot everything except the bosses.
As far as I and a bunch of other Ice trainers (who are preparing for a dom battle, as a reminder), the new 123str is just as fast and levels at roughly the same pace as the old Mire build. Does it sometimes require more resetting or refreshing for specific packs? Maybe. In the long term though, I imagine it will even out to be within a few seconds of the old Mire and current Ruins builds. Even if it did slow down leveling in the Mire, the Ruins is till viable right now, and if we have to level slower, so be it.
But I don't find it slower, and I very much appreciate that Lightning is now a viable element.
no support
metas change. it's just how games work. adapt to the new content if you wanna be as efficient as possible
no support
metas change. it's just how games work. adapt to the new content if you wanna be as efficient as possible
Support.
I would say partial support since I don't mind needing 120 Str as it doesn't straight up make a build impossible, but 123 Str is too high imo since it does make a build (the Ghire Gorer) impossible since you can't get a high enough Qck. (To clarify, this change makes a build that can train fodder in GLR and Mire impossible (or close to it) which is a fairly big deal imo)
However, I will say full support since this is requiring so many players to restat their trainers.
No other venue requiring build restats would matter nearly as much as the Mire solely because of how many people have dedicated Mire builds. BW didn't matter because who has a dedicated build for there? GLR wouldn't matter as much since more people have Mire builds than GLR builds due to the age differences of the venues
Mire has just been out for too long to make the negative change of requiring new builds worth the positive of adding new challenges.
P.S. what's with the enemy with 16 Qck? Give that little guy a bit more XD
Support.
I would say partial support since I don't mind needing 120 Str as it doesn't straight up make a build impossible, but 123 Str is too high imo since it does make a build (the Ghire Gorer) impossible since you can't get a high enough Qck. (To clarify, this change makes a build that can train fodder in GLR and Mire impossible (or close to it) which is a fairly big deal imo)
However, I will say full support since this is requiring so many players to restat their trainers.
No other venue requiring build restats would matter nearly as much as the Mire solely because of how many people have dedicated Mire builds. BW didn't matter because who has a dedicated build for there? GLR wouldn't matter as much since more people have Mire builds than GLR builds due to the age differences of the venues
Mire has just been out for too long to make the negative change of requiring new builds worth the positive of adding new challenges.
P.S. what's with the enemy with 16 Qck? Give that little guy a bit more XD
[quote name="Zenzic" date="2021-10-23 01:32:44" ]
[quote name="Sallin" date="2021-10-22 23:58:19" ]
Making new enemies too OP for the venues they get added to has been a consistent problem over, well, all the previous coli revamps.
Compare the stats of the old monsters vs the new ones and it's such a stark difference.
[/quote]
This has been my biggest gripe with the venue updates for a long time. The fresh new flavours from gorgeous new background artwork and fun new enemies is absolutely soured by wonky game balance.
For example, Scorched Forest and Forgotten Cave difficulties were absolutely busted with their updates so long ago. Please fix them...
I trained a team up to lv 25 on their own after the Forgotten Cave update, and I noticed that even though my dragons were at or slightly above the level recommended for the venue, they were easily overwhelmed by the newer enemies that were way too powerful for the venue. The Blueband Duelist (Forgotten Cave) come in groups of 3, do over 100 damage each, and have enough speed to take two turns in a row each. [emoji=nocturne scared size=2]
[/quote]
Yeah, this is my issue. I actually have no problems with this update [i]itself[/i], on a personal level (I was one of the lucky ones whose build didn't break entirely, thanks 119 Scratch, though I am disappointed that it broke more builds than it created new builds on a person-who-likes-creative-builds level) but this is a consistent pattern with every Coli update and that has been bothering me for a while.
And absolutely the problem is worse in lower level venues, because it only punishes people who are trying to level their dragons the "normal" way rather than people who shortcut around it and only come back in with level 25s. "Make them tankier so everything is more difficult" isn't a viable long-term solution because all it does in practice is make things harder for people with less resources and mildly inconvenience and restrict builds for people who are more in the know.
But as long as staff are aware of this and the problems it presents, it is what it is, I guess. I just don't think "make them tankier! more difficult!" is a great trend overall, personally. It's not going to stop people from min-maxing, so the people it hurts the most are people who [i]don't[/i] min-max, because it forces them into a position where they feel they have to start. If that's the intended outcome… again, it is what it is. But if it's not, it's worth taking into consideration, I feel.
Edit: to clarify, this isn't support or no support, it's just me talking about the pattern.
Zenzic wrote on 2021-10-23 01:32:44:
Sallin wrote on 2021-10-22 23:58:19:
Making new enemies too OP for the venues they get added to has been a consistent problem over, well, all the previous coli revamps.
Compare the stats of the old monsters vs the new ones and it's such a stark difference.
This has been my biggest gripe with the venue updates for a long time. The fresh new flavours from gorgeous new background artwork and fun new enemies is absolutely soured by wonky game balance.
For example, Scorched Forest and Forgotten Cave difficulties were absolutely busted with their updates so long ago. Please fix them...
I trained a team up to lv 25 on their own after the Forgotten Cave update, and I noticed that even though my dragons were at or slightly above the level recommended for the venue, they were easily overwhelmed by the newer enemies that were way too powerful for the venue. The Blueband Duelist (Forgotten Cave) come in groups of 3, do over 100 damage each, and have enough speed to take two turns in a row each.
Yeah, this is my issue. I actually have no problems with this update
itself, on a personal level (I was one of the lucky ones whose build didn't break entirely, thanks 119 Scratch, though I am disappointed that it broke more builds than it created new builds on a person-who-likes-creative-builds level) but this is a consistent pattern with every Coli update and that has been bothering me for a while.
And absolutely the problem is worse in lower level venues, because it only punishes people who are trying to level their dragons the "normal" way rather than people who shortcut around it and only come back in with level 25s. "Make them tankier so everything is more difficult" isn't a viable long-term solution because all it does in practice is make things harder for people with less resources and mildly inconvenience and restrict builds for people who are more in the know.
But as long as staff are aware of this and the problems it presents, it is what it is, I guess. I just don't think "make them tankier! more difficult!" is a great trend overall, personally. It's not going to stop people from min-maxing, so the people it hurts the most are people who
don't min-max, because it forces them into a position where they feel they have to start. If that's the intended outcome… again, it is what it is. But if it's not, it's worth taking into consideration, I feel.
Edit: to clarify, this isn't support or no support, it's just me talking about the pattern.
Support. It’s not bad for the Coliseum to be updated or for metas to change, but I think that should be reserved for if the Coliseum system is updated/reworked as a whole. Until then, I think it’s best for enemies to stay as similar to what they usually are as possible to accommodate for the current min-max grindfest that the Coliseum currently is. All that happened now is that we have new builds with the same min-max meta, plus 30kt for whoever wants to change theirs. This update didn’t change anything substantial in the battle system, just introduced a bit of hassle for current builds. That goes for any venue, not just fodder venues. This update didn’t make fighting in the Mire more engaging, or more difficult, or better. Just same story, different day.
Support. It’s not bad for the Coliseum to be updated or for metas to change, but I think that should be reserved for if the Coliseum system is updated/reworked as a whole. Until then, I think it’s best for enemies to stay as similar to what they usually are as possible to accommodate for the current min-max grindfest that the Coliseum currently is. All that happened now is that we have new builds with the same min-max meta, plus 30kt for whoever wants to change theirs. This update didn’t change anything substantial in the battle system, just introduced a bit of hassle for current builds. That goes for any venue, not just fodder venues. This update didn’t make fighting in the Mire more engaging, or more difficult, or better. Just same story, different day.
Support, more or less--
while I do run a build meant for post-mire venues and as such my dragons fare well, it's VERY Easy to see how this has gotten headache-inducing for everyone and.... Tbf it's short term, and I do believe the community will find a way to make do!! This is just too disruptive in this particular window imo, and The timing of the fix is going to make for a bumpy ride for ror too tho, since the coliseums used for farming contest currency and chests as well.
(I'm unsure if the mire's one of the peak ROR farming spots but people might be doing double duty bc yknow. dom battles. I dont't expect staff to be aware of or cater to dominance situations I just feel like with how close to an irl holiday and a festival this is the sorta stuff bound to happen)
If staff won't tweak the chunkier enemies I do think that everyone should be given like 3 free tinctures bc we're gonna be doing so much mass restatting.
support. While I do think minor changes aren't a bad thing, the mire is the only level 24 venue, and the amount of points needed for the jump from 119 to 123 stat points is a lot. imo giving out some tinctures would've been nice because this did ruin a lot of people's fodder trainers ^^'
support. While I do think minor changes aren't a bad thing, the mire is the only level 24 venue, and the amount of points needed for the jump from 119 to 123 stat points is a lot. imo giving out some tinctures would've been nice because this did ruin a lot of people's fodder trainers ^^'
No support.
It has already been explained by others but the staff has no obligation to maintain the current builds/meta when revamping venues. Especially considering that these builds/meta were all player created. It is up to the players to adapt to the changes not the other way around.
Also, if there is a venue that needs nerfing it is the Scorched Forest. Instead of a difficulty curve it's a cliff due to how drastic the change is from the Woodland Path.
If anything, there should be another level 24 venue instead of just the one so that there are more options for leveling.
No support.
It has already been explained by others but the staff has no obligation to maintain the current builds/meta when revamping venues. Especially considering that these builds/meta were all player created. It is up to the players to adapt to the changes not the other way around.
Also, if there is a venue that needs nerfing it is the Scorched Forest. Instead of a difficulty curve it's a cliff due to how drastic the change is from the Woodland Path.
If anything, there should be another level 24 venue instead of just the one so that there are more options for leveling.
Alternative suggestion:
If the Mire is now going to require builds similar to Golem Workshop/the ocean one I can't remember, then it should get upgraded to a level 25 venue so we can at least enjoy an XP chain booster for the trouble of having to buy a tincture which are probably gonna SKYROCKET in price now
Alternative suggestion:
If the Mire is now going to require builds similar to Golem Workshop/the ocean one I can't remember, then it should get upgraded to a level 25 venue so we can at least enjoy an XP chain booster for the trouble of having to buy a tincture which are probably gonna SKYROCKET in price now
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Horror aesthetic/lore lair
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Massive Horror fan
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Support. Sure, re-statting my mire flyer to a 123 STR build was annoying, but it wasn't the end of the world. What's more annoying is that those additional points into STR had to be taken from QCK, which means that it's more difficult to get breath built up for rally+elim without your trainer getting hit too much, and those lost turns mean that loosing breath because of a miss can be absolutely devastating. I've spent the morning playing around with training in the Mire, and it's overall just become a more frustrating experience. Adding on that the update brought a lot of new scratch attackers, and it's much harder to get breath built up and recover from RNG.
Ultimately, the Mire has been the best place to fodder grind for years, and the stats of these new enemies require changes that overall make the experience more frustrating, more time-consuming, and less enjoyable. While it isn't the devs' obligation to maintain current coli builds, this is also a big change that significantly and negatively impacts large portions of the site. I personally can't see any good reason not to adjust these enemies' stats to be in line with the rest of the Mire enemies.
Support. Sure, re-statting my mire flyer to a 123 STR build was annoying, but it wasn't the end of the world. What's more annoying is that those additional points into STR had to be taken from QCK, which means that it's more difficult to get breath built up for rally+elim without your trainer getting hit too much, and those lost turns mean that loosing breath because of a miss can be absolutely devastating. I've spent the morning playing around with training in the Mire, and it's overall just become a more frustrating experience. Adding on that the update brought a lot of new scratch attackers, and it's much harder to get breath built up and recover from RNG.
Ultimately, the Mire has been the best place to fodder grind for years, and the stats of these new enemies require changes that overall make the experience more frustrating, more time-consuming, and less enjoyable. While it isn't the devs' obligation to maintain current coli builds, this is also a big change that significantly and negatively impacts large portions of the site. I personally can't see any good reason not to adjust these enemies' stats to be in line with the rest of the Mire enemies.
