[quote name="MistFury0" date="2021-04-14 16:16:00" ]
[quote]Fr isn’t a mutation game and it never should’ve been.[/quote]
Mutations the most unwanted thing on fr. The rng eyes are the worst thing to come to fr. I’d rather not have them at all.
[/quote]
Okay, but yes, this. I could make a thread asking for mutations right now and everyone, even the people against an eye fix, would lose their minds. It happens every time a mutations thread is brought up.
MistFury0 wrote on 2021-04-14 16:16:00:
Quote:
Fr isn’t a mutation game and it never should’ve been.
Mutations the most unwanted thing on fr. The rng eyes are the worst thing to come to fr. I’d rather not have them at all.
Okay, but yes, this. I could make a thread asking for mutations right now and everyone, even the people against an eye fix, would lose their minds. It happens every time a mutations thread is brought up.
Yep, been here since 2014, seen multiple suggestions for breeding mutations and the most common replies were:
- no
- Only support if there is a way to opt out
- only support if we can apply these mutations to older dragons as well
Which makes me wonder why the staff implemented this system to begin with, we know they keepan eye on the suggestion forums, so they should be very well aware that rng breeding mutations are very much not liked.
That makes me quastion why the staff even bothered with unnatural eye types to begin with, I’m glad they exist but they really seem to serve as a sort of bandaid. They did admit they didn’t want to include the scattervial at all.
Basically they anticipated the fall out, they knew a lot of people were going to be upset, I also refuse to believe that this is something they wanted to do since the beginning as was said. If that was so they should’ve introduced it shortly after the site’s launch, maybe after a year at most. But 5 years is too long for something like this.
Now I’m not saying the staff did this out of malicious intent or whatever, I highly doubt that’s the intention, but I do want to understand their line of thought. And their “appology” also didn’t help matters with the general tone “we’ve worked so hard on this for you guys, we’re soooo sorry you don’t like it :c” very unproffesional.
Yep, been here since 2014, seen multiple suggestions for breeding mutations and the most common replies were:
- no
- Only support if there is a way to opt out
- only support if we can apply these mutations to older dragons as well
Which makes me wonder why the staff implemented this system to begin with, we know they keepan eye on the suggestion forums, so they should be very well aware that rng breeding mutations are very much not liked.
That makes me quastion why the staff even bothered with unnatural eye types to begin with, I’m glad they exist but they really seem to serve as a sort of bandaid. They did admit they didn’t want to include the scattervial at all.
Basically they anticipated the fall out, they knew a lot of people were going to be upset, I also refuse to believe that this is something they wanted to do since the beginning as was said. If that was so they should’ve introduced it shortly after the site’s launch, maybe after a year at most. But 5 years is too long for something like this.
Now I’m not saying the staff did this out of malicious intent or whatever, I highly doubt that’s the intention, but I do want to understand their line of thought. And their “appology” also didn’t help matters with the general tone “we’ve worked so hard on this for you guys, we’re soooo sorry you don’t like it :c” very unproffesional.
[quote name="Apocalyptichorse" date="2021-04-15 03:13:19" ]
Yep, been here since 2014, seen multiple suggestions for breeding mutations and the most common replies were:
- no
- Only support if there is a way to opt out
- only support if we can apply these mutations to older dragons as well
Which makes me wonder why the staff implemented this system to begin with, we know they keepan eye on the suggestion forums, so they should be very well aware that rng breeding mutations are very much not liked.
That makes me quastion why the staff even bothered with unnatural eye types to begin with, I’m glad they exist but they really seem to serve as a sort of bandaid. They did admit they didn’t want to include the scattervial at all.
Basically they anticipated the fall out, they knew a lot of people were going to be upset, I also refuse to believe that this is something they wanted to do since the beginning as was said. If that was so they should’ve introduced it shortly after the site’s launch, maybe after a year at most. But 5 years is too long for something like this.
Now I’m not saying the staff did this out of malicious intent or whatever, I highly doubt that’s the intention, but I do want to understand their line of thought. And their “appology” also didn’t help matters with the general tone “we’ve worked so hard on this for you guys, we’re soooo sorry you don’t like it :c” very unproffesional.
[/quote]
When I joined fr I was under the impression it was a dragon dress up game not a breeding sim so the whole mutations thing was my worst fear. In fact I never once heard fr being called a breeding sim until after the eye update.
Used to be you’d always see people calling fr a dragon dress up game but I can’t say Ive seen it called that since 2018. Now all I hear is it’s a breeding sim. What I want to know is staff want fr to be 100% breeding sim or 100% dragon dress up game or heck make both play styles valid again.
Apocalyptichorse wrote on 2021-04-15 03:13:19:
Yep, been here since 2014, seen multiple suggestions for breeding mutations and the most common replies were:
- no
- Only support if there is a way to opt out
- only support if we can apply these mutations to older dragons as well
Which makes me wonder why the staff implemented this system to begin with, we know they keepan eye on the suggestion forums, so they should be very well aware that rng breeding mutations are very much not liked.
That makes me quastion why the staff even bothered with unnatural eye types to begin with, I’m glad they exist but they really seem to serve as a sort of bandaid. They did admit they didn’t want to include the scattervial at all.
Basically they anticipated the fall out, they knew a lot of people were going to be upset, I also refuse to believe that this is something they wanted to do since the beginning as was said. If that was so they should’ve introduced it shortly after the site’s launch, maybe after a year at most. But 5 years is too long for something like this.
Now I’m not saying the staff did this out of malicious intent or whatever, I highly doubt that’s the intention, but I do want to understand their line of thought. And their “appology” also didn’t help matters with the general tone “we’ve worked so hard on this for you guys, we’re soooo sorry you don’t like it :c” very unproffesional.
When I joined fr I was under the impression it was a dragon dress up game not a breeding sim so the whole mutations thing was my worst fear. In fact I never once heard fr being called a breeding sim until after the eye update.
Used to be you’d always see people calling fr a dragon dress up game but I can’t say Ive seen it called that since 2018. Now all I hear is it’s a breeding sim. What I want to know is staff want fr to be 100% breeding sim or 100% dragon dress up game or heck make both play styles valid again.
I love you staff and thank you so much for the eye update 2.0! I cannot thank you enough for this!
[quote name="MistFury0" date="2021-04-15 16:54:40" ]
When I joined fr I was under the impression it was a dragon dress up game not a breeding sim so the whole mutations thing was my worst fear. In fact I never once heard fr being called a breeding sim until after the eye update.
Used to be you’d always see people calling fr a dragon dress up game but I can’t say Ive seen it called that since 2018. Now all I hear is it’s a breeding sim. What I want to know is staff want fr to be 100% breeding sim or 100% dragon dress up game or heck make both play styles valid again.
[/quote]
It had been referred to a dragon breeding game before the eye update usually in response to suggestions that requested the ability to buy a dragon scry as a new dragon for your lair
When huge changes to the breeding system were suggested (such as lower cooldown for males compared to females or multi generation genetics (ie genes of grandparents could crop up) or mutations that were breed only) however the general consensus is we like the current breeding system as we aren’t a realistic breeding system
MistFury0 wrote on 2021-04-15 16:54:40:
When I joined fr I was under the impression it was a dragon dress up game not a breeding sim so the whole mutations thing was my worst fear. In fact I never once heard fr being called a breeding sim until after the eye update.
Used to be you’d always see people calling fr a dragon dress up game but I can’t say Ive seen it called that since 2018. Now all I hear is it’s a breeding sim. What I want to know is staff want fr to be 100% breeding sim or 100% dragon dress up game or heck make both play styles valid again.
It had been referred to a dragon breeding game before the eye update usually in response to suggestions that requested the ability to buy a dragon scry as a new dragon for your lair
When huge changes to the breeding system were suggested (such as lower cooldown for males compared to females or multi generation genetics (ie genes of grandparents could crop up) or mutations that were breed only) however the general consensus is we like the current breeding system as we aren’t a realistic breeding system
i'd usually be one of the "it's been 3 years, do we really need to keep doing this?" people, but yeah. something should be done if it's been THREE years with almost nothing saying "yes, we're listening and working on it" or "no, we're listening but we aren't going to change it". so support for any and all changes about eyes, please at least acknowledge this in some way; community post, a break of policy and a comment here i don't care. hasn't it been long enough?
i'd usually be one of the "it's been 3 years, do we really need to keep doing this?" people, but yeah. something should be done if it's been THREE years with almost nothing saying "yes, we're listening and working on it" or "no, we're listening but we aren't going to change it". so support for any and all changes about eyes, please at least acknowledge this in some way; community post, a break of policy and a comment here i don't care. hasn't it been long enough?
[quote name="xev" date="2021-04-16 15:41:19" ]
i'd usually be one of the "it's been 3 years, do we really need to keep doing this?" people, but yeah. something should be done if it's been THREE years with almost nothing saying "yes, we're listening and working on it" or "no, we're listening but we aren't going to change it". so support for any and all changes about eyes, please at least acknowledge this in some way; community post, a break of policy and a comment here i don't care. hasn't it been long enough?
[/quote]
I read people saying “Its been 3 years get over it.” And I automatically think back to all the other parts of the site that have been here for years that've had changes such as the coliseum, we haven’t had pvp in how long? And haven’t the coli captchas have been here about as long as eyes as well? And how long until we get buttercup snappers fixed? Will iridescent and shimmer ever be fixed? Or capsule on male spirals? Should we just never fix these things because they’ve been around so long?
By this logic we never should’ve gotten any updates to anything if it takes more than a year. To which I must remind you that we haven’t had a new eye type since 2019.
Staff is there a reason we aren’t getting new eye types? We have stated we want new eye types and new eye type suggestions are always supported even by those of us who do not enjoy how the eye system works but what’s preventing the release of new eye types?
xev wrote on 2021-04-16 15:41:19:
i'd usually be one of the "it's been 3 years, do we really need to keep doing this?" people, but yeah. something should be done if it's been THREE years with almost nothing saying "yes, we're listening and working on it" or "no, we're listening but we aren't going to change it". so support for any and all changes about eyes, please at least acknowledge this in some way; community post, a break of policy and a comment here i don't care. hasn't it been long enough?
I read people saying “Its been 3 years get over it.” And I automatically think back to all the other parts of the site that have been here for years that've had changes such as the coliseum, we haven’t had pvp in how long? And haven’t the coli captchas have been here about as long as eyes as well? And how long until we get buttercup snappers fixed? Will iridescent and shimmer ever be fixed? Or capsule on male spirals? Should we just never fix these things because they’ve been around so long?
By this logic we never should’ve gotten any updates to anything if it takes more than a year. To which I must remind you that we haven’t had a new eye type since 2019.
Staff is there a reason we aren’t getting new eye types? We have stated we want new eye types and new eye type suggestions are always supported even by those of us who do not enjoy how the eye system works but what’s preventing the release of new eye types?
I wouldn't even mind if they were waiting until after the code revamps are finished to work on these sorts of things but I'd love to at least know what's happening concerning it.
It's becoming the norm for small game developers (if you want to call this a game, which I do) to comment on issues the community is having and interact with their community. Even if it's to say "Sorry, we can't do this for this reason," I'd love to know what's happening and reasoning regarding the more common conversations in suggestions, not even just the eye update.
I wouldn't even mind if they were waiting until after the code revamps are finished to work on these sorts of things but I'd love to at least know what's happening concerning it.
It's becoming the norm for small game developers (if you want to call this a game, which I do) to comment on issues the community is having and interact with their community. Even if it's to say "Sorry, we can't do this for this reason," I'd love to know what's happening and reasoning regarding the more common conversations in suggestions, not even just the eye update.
[quote name="BlueJaysFeather" date="2021-04-14 15:57:08" ]
Hi! My preferred solution also retains breeding RNG, so we agree there. However, there seems to be a confusion where you're saying the RNG is "fair" for each individual egg (which is true) while others are saying the RNG is not "fair" from account to account (which is also true). If I hatch an egg and someone who joined a month ago hatches an egg, we have equal odds. But if I decide to go all out for a project (or go on a mass hatch but unhatched egg RNG complicates things), I have five nests and a gracious plenty of lairspace, so I could hatch a nest a day. Let's say I want a non-imp so I can have the possibility of 5 eggs bc most eyes are invisible on imps anyway. Now I can hatch 2.7 eggs per day, for nothing more than the cost of 15 breeding pairs and food, which I have, due to I've been here accumulating food items for several years. Now this new player suddenly falls a lot further behind in terms of the RNG. tl;dr y'all are both right, and I am happy to ask any professor in my college's stats department to confirm if you'd like. If you want to retain RNG and they don't then fine, but math doesn't care about word games with the word "fair." And tbh, I think there are better arguments for exalt for eyes over converting eyes to the gene system than debates over "fairness" anyway.
[/quote]
Oh yeah, I did say the initial fairness of the eye-RNG can be manipulated. Thing is tho, and we shouldn't forget this: unlocking more nests and lair space and getting more dragons is one of the ways to progress in FR in general. So while in the beginning the odds/"fairness" might not be in favour of a new player who just has one nest and his progens, they can build up to it. It is pretty much the [i]same[/i] way they would [i]have[/i] to build up towards buying whatever item their prefered eye type might be, because that too would probably cost about as much as unlocking the last nest slot. So either way they'd need to get the money for it.
If we start saying "It's unfair to new players" then that can potentially be said to anything that an older player has access to. Leveled Cauldrons, more Lairspace, leveld Gathering options, Lvl 25 Coli teams, potentially fully gened progens. It's all things we outselves had to work up to so I don't know if it is the strongest of arguments to say "this is not fair to new players" because yes, they are new, they need to start building their lair and get to a point where they can afford anything at all.
It's a really tough matter, so I'm not saying it isn't an argument at all, I am just saying, there's other things that then would come to mind where newer players would have a disadvantage.
BlueJaysFeather wrote on 2021-04-14 15:57:08:
Hi! My preferred solution also retains breeding RNG, so we agree there. However, there seems to be a confusion where you're saying the RNG is "fair" for each individual egg (which is true) while others are saying the RNG is not "fair" from account to account (which is also true). If I hatch an egg and someone who joined a month ago hatches an egg, we have equal odds. But if I decide to go all out for a project (or go on a mass hatch but unhatched egg RNG complicates things), I have five nests and a gracious plenty of lairspace, so I could hatch a nest a day. Let's say I want a non-imp so I can have the possibility of 5 eggs bc most eyes are invisible on imps anyway. Now I can hatch 2.7 eggs per day, for nothing more than the cost of 15 breeding pairs and food, which I have, due to I've been here accumulating food items for several years. Now this new player suddenly falls a lot further behind in terms of the RNG. tl;dr y'all are both right, and I am happy to ask any professor in my college's stats department to confirm if you'd like. If you want to retain RNG and they don't then fine, but math doesn't care about word games with the word "fair." And tbh, I think there are better arguments for exalt for eyes over converting eyes to the gene system than debates over "fairness" anyway.
Oh yeah, I did say the initial fairness of the eye-RNG can be manipulated. Thing is tho, and we shouldn't forget this: unlocking more nests and lair space and getting more dragons is one of the ways to progress in FR in general. So while in the beginning the odds/"fairness" might not be in favour of a new player who just has one nest and his progens, they can build up to it. It is pretty much the
same way they would
have to build up towards buying whatever item their prefered eye type might be, because that too would probably cost about as much as unlocking the last nest slot. So either way they'd need to get the money for it.
If we start saying "It's unfair to new players" then that can potentially be said to anything that an older player has access to. Leveled Cauldrons, more Lairspace, leveld Gathering options, Lvl 25 Coli teams, potentially fully gened progens. It's all things we outselves had to work up to so I don't know if it is the strongest of arguments to say "this is not fair to new players" because yes, they are new, they need to start building their lair and get to a point where they can afford anything at all.
It's a really tough matter, so I'm not saying it isn't an argument at all, I am just saying, there's other things that then would come to mind where newer players would have a disadvantage.
On the subject of fairness, but from a different perspective - is it fair that I can apply glow but not rare or unusual? Rare / unusual projects still run the risk of taking multiple months, cannot be applied to old dragons, etc. but are arguably not as fancy as glow. Where's the line?
And before you start comparing this to gem genes vs treasure genes I want to make it clear how much easier getting 1200 gems is than any natural-only eye projects except for maybe uncommon. Multi could be 3000g and I wouldn't be making this argument because at least that's achievable and usable on any dragon I want.
Or why is it fair that some people's favorite eye types be trapped behind a nearly insurmountable rng wall, and some people's favorite eye types can be applied?
Like this is a game, I play it for fun, I grow attached to my dragons like I do my pokemon. Peoples' arguments for this don't have to all be technical, right?
On the subject of fairness, but from a different perspective - is it fair that I can apply glow but not rare or unusual? Rare / unusual projects still run the risk of taking multiple months, cannot be applied to old dragons, etc. but are arguably not as fancy as glow. Where's the line?
And before you start comparing this to gem genes vs treasure genes I want to make it clear how much easier getting 1200 gems is than any natural-only eye projects except for maybe uncommon. Multi could be 3000g and I wouldn't be making this argument because at least that's achievable and usable on any dragon I want.
Or why is it fair that some people's favorite eye types be trapped behind a nearly insurmountable rng wall, and some people's favorite eye types can be applied?
Like this is a game, I play it for fun, I grow attached to my dragons like I do my pokemon. Peoples' arguments for this don't have to all be technical, right?
The only fair thing I can see is that when breeding we all have the same odds regarding the eyes, that is true. BUT due to the RNG that doesn’t make it fair, User A could be breeding for a month and get the eyes they want on a dragon, user B gets the eyes they want first try and user C spends a year or longer on it.
This doesn’t even account for genes and colors, which good luck if you want a dragon with colors that are rare or unpopular or might not even exist at all yet. The amount of space you’ll need for unrelated pairs, food, funs for boons if you want to use those.
Many people have already said it’s NOT a fun undertaking, it’s frustrating. And of course there will always be the concern of “if we get a new eye type will it be natural or not?”
Sure, Galore gives out 2 vials for new natural eyes, but are still pretty useless due to them being clan bound and only given out once. Which is actually unfair to new players.
If I was a newbie who signed up today, and I really want my custom progen to have goat eyes, how’d I go about doing that? I missed out on Galore giving out the vials, I can’t send away my progen to someone who does have a vial. Even if that was possible there’d be the chance of the other person refusing to give the dragon back and the staff wouldn’t do anything since dragon lending is at your own risk. And goat eyes aren’t included in the scattervials, now that is unfair.
Sure, life isn’t fair but this is a game, games don’t have to be unfair
The only fair thing I can see is that when breeding we all have the same odds regarding the eyes, that is true. BUT due to the RNG that doesn’t make it fair, User A could be breeding for a month and get the eyes they want on a dragon, user B gets the eyes they want first try and user C spends a year or longer on it.
This doesn’t even account for genes and colors, which good luck if you want a dragon with colors that are rare or unpopular or might not even exist at all yet. The amount of space you’ll need for unrelated pairs, food, funs for boons if you want to use those.
Many people have already said it’s NOT a fun undertaking, it’s frustrating. And of course there will always be the concern of “if we get a new eye type will it be natural or not?”
Sure, Galore gives out 2 vials for new natural eyes, but are still pretty useless due to them being clan bound and only given out once. Which is actually unfair to new players.
If I was a newbie who signed up today, and I really want my custom progen to have goat eyes, how’d I go about doing that? I missed out on Galore giving out the vials, I can’t send away my progen to someone who does have a vial. Even if that was possible there’d be the chance of the other person refusing to give the dragon back and the staff wouldn’t do anything since dragon lending is at your own risk. And goat eyes aren’t included in the scattervials, now that is unfair.
Sure, life isn’t fair but this is a game, games don’t have to be unfair
