Suggestions

[center] [b]The Goal of this Thread[/b] To hopefully avoid the repetitive debates in other threads and consolidate all our ideas to a unified thread so no one has to keep track of dozens of eye threads, we’ll be addressing as much as possible in these early posts. For this reason, we ask that you read the first [X] posts, or at least skim through to see if we address your concerns before posting. [b]We have concerns about the current natural eye system, and we want to improve it for users with different play styles that currently do not allow them to interact with it.[/b] We also want to avoid as much distress to those used to the current system as possible. As there are a number of competing ideas that seem equally likely to produce good outcomes for the most players, as well as the site as a whole, we hope to progress the discussion beyond the same few objections. On June 7, 2018, the fifth anniversary of the site, a very special update rolled out. Dragons’ eyes were updated to allow variations of color and appearance within A Flight. Despite initial excitement as many of us here in this thread scried beloved permadragons with the exciting new eye types, this update is one of the most controversial updates in the site's history- many players refer to the update as the Eyepocalypse, as it has divided the site since its release. The reasons for this disagreement are varied and will be discussed a bit more further on. So instead of arguing for any [i]one[/i] solution we argue for a common goal. Any solution that meets the goal is within reason. For both users and staff, we ask as you read this thread to understand no matter the fix we may or may not get, we can be civil with one another in the end. It is our hope in this collaborative thread that we can come together and discuss the eye system in a peaceful and respectful manner. We want you all to feel welcome reading our concerns as well as voicing your own. We have compiled our thoughts on the flaws in the system and some of the ideas we’ve had for possible fixes, even if we are not promoting any one in particular. These are references so we can build on these ideas together. We ask that you be respectful in this thread, as we have come together to stop the constant repetition and tired anger at rehashing the same arguments. We have worked to note and address common objections that we’ve encountered on our ideas in the past. Coming to the thread in anger or defensiveness will help no one. We know as well as anyone how difficult that can be with this extremely touchy subject, but please remember that there is another person on the other side of the screen.[/center] [b]Why a Change can Still Happen[/b] Shortly after the 5th Anniversary Update, the administration [url=https://www1.flightrising.com/forums/frd/2457301]posted a thread[/url] discussing their reasons behind the eye update: they saw the Scattersight vials as a mistake and they intended the eyes to be obtained exclusively through the breeding system. However, they did add the [gamedb item=26849] which applies Common eyes to a dragon, so the team is open to some changes. Although they stated that going forward they wanted the natural eyes to be hatched only, this is a source of frustration as it excludes existing dragons. Many players enjoy customizing their well-loved dragons, while others enjoy other aspects of the site. Before this update, players were able to customize or control just about every aspect of their dragons. With the introduction of the [gamedb item=35896] in [url=https://www1.flightrising.com/forums/ann/2909063]September 2020[/url] even the dragon’s sex is no longer as limiting. Though we may still not change our dragons to Imperials via scrolls, it is possible to reliably breed for Imperials by using a Wildclaw or Coatl to ensure good odds. Not only is there no reliable way to get natural eyes on new dragons, but also a large number of dragons are excluded due to having existed prior to the Fifth Anniversary Update. The administration team has changed their minds about things in the past. Originally it was impossible to change a dragon’s colors, as the administration thought [url=https://www1.flightrising.com/forums/help/15312#post_15316]part of the challenge and fun of Flight Rising is breeding for the perfect color combination[/url] then a few months later the [url=https://www1.flightrising.com/forums/ann/933145/1]Tri-Color ScatterScroll was released[/url] allowing us to completely change the colors of our dragon. Initially the administration team didn’t want a “dragon generator” where players could play with genes/breeds/colors without having to use scrolls to preview things as they wanted to keep breeding a “surprise” however they eventually released the Scrying Workshop where we can preview theoretical dragons or preview offspring of dragons. [url=https://www1.flightrising.com/forums/ann/2726890#post_2726890]We can even save and dress these non-existent dragons[/url] as of July 2019. For years, we were told retired is retired, and yet [url=https://www1.flightrising.com/forums/ann/2510405#post_2510405]Roundsey was introduced[/url] in August 2018, and she routinely gives out new copies of retired items--Kickstarter (2013), Beta (2013) and Scattersights (2018) excluded. Imagine if a new gene was added tomorrow and you went and scried it on your older dragons. Imagine maybe it looks perfect on your progens, or the dragon you were gifted when you first started FR, only to then read the update and discover thys new gene could only be generated from breeding, and all of your dragons were excluded. Imagine the drop in your stomach as you fall from excitement to stress and frustration, because you have three days to obtain items to give you any chance at all of getting this gene on even a few of your dragons. This was the eye update to older players. In contrast, natural eyes are to new players what imp scrolls are to old players. Most people who have played for a little while realize that imp scrolls functionally don't exist, so they have adapted a play style to suit that, and choose not to scry existing dragons as imperials. New players, realizing that putting natural eyes on existing dragons is, again, pretty much impossible for anyone but the ultra rich have adapted to that playstyle, and do not scry them on dragons that do not already have them. But, locking imp scrolls was a mistake. A breed should not have been locked out of customization on a site like FR. When you make a mistake like that, you don't make a SECOND mistake by adding a new mechanic that is basically imp scrolls 2.0 (https://www1.flightrising.com/forums/sug/2652869/8#post_46974044) FR is known and celebrated for its customization aspects. The eye update made it seem as though this is not intended and there is a right (and by extension, wrong) way to play FR. Playstyles such as G1 collectors, old dragon collectors, special ID collectors, collectors of sentimental dragons, and those who pick up random dragons to customize them do not seem to be supported with the eye update. Instead, they wanted a more breeding-centric play style. Anyone who chose not to breed their dragons or preferred customizing dragons instead were not playing FR correctly. [b]Site Wide Effects of the Eye Update[/b] Since the eye update we have recorded several interesting things across the entire site that it is important to pay attention to. Breeding projects are expensive in time. The chances at hatching special eyed dragons is very low. We knew this from the beginning, and it has become more apparent with time. People questing for specific eyes have a rough time; it’s common to see threads about people hatching nest after nest and not getting the results they are after, or, worse, they get the goal-eyes on non-goal dragons. [url=https://www1.flightrising.com/forums/sug/2645019/2#post_38095390]Calculating the odds for someone who wants a specific Female Imperial Primal dragon seems depressing[/url]. If you want an Imperial with special eyes then one or both parents would have to be Imperials (though breeding two Imperials guarantees never having five eggs in a nest) leaving you with only about 12 times to breed that pair a year to hopefully get the exact eyes you want. By the time you reach your goal, another better eye type could be added, locked behind breeding. At best, you’ll get two vials from Galore. Breeding projects are expensive in resources. To minimize the time required for hatching goal-dragons, people keep multiple pairs of identical dragons to breed in hopes of getting a clone with the correct eyes. We all know the pain of limited lairspace. Newbies and casual players in particular don’t have the lairspace, let alone as many nests, to breed more dragons. Primal eyes in particular have caused some Flights to be more valuable than others, and nest rentals are not supported transactions. We’re not sure there’s been a wholly negative impact here (our community is pretty nice and you don’t hear about stolen dragons that often), but a rising number of nest rentals does have a rising chance of lost dragons. Fodder breeding was also changed greatly by the eye update. Not many users breed random dragons together because they feel like if they hatched a “special” eye type it would be wasted on a probably unwanted dragon. Rather than breed whatever they like, people breed for fodder to match whatever buyers like (usually matching a deity or eye colors). This has thinned the XYZ dragon market, making projects for less popular colors more difficult (added to the above lair space problem). The addition of more two toned genes makes XYZ projects more appealing, but makes the eye update even more frustrating. It is also noted that the differences between the eye systems and the gene and breed systems are so different to one another it causes confusion for newer players or casual players. This was very notable for the release of innocent and goat. Newer or casual players were confused as to why some eyes were breeding only and why some were buy only and this should be addressed if we get a fix or not. A entire system should not be so confusing or complicated to new or casual players and needs addressed just as much as other concerns. Finally, if money is no object, you have better chances in time spent getting special eye types from mass hatching Unhatched Eggs than from regular breeding. In breeding, you are limited to 4-5 eggs max and you have to wait five days to hatch them. Your pair goes on cooldown for 15-35 days depending on rarity. No account has more than five nests. The luckiest person in the world with 15 pairs (30 dragons) of Plentiful dragons (mismatched breeds) can hatch 150 eggs maximum in 30 days. Mass hatching eggs feels like you have better chances in this regard, since you could hatch that many eggs in a single day. Added 4/5 by BlueJaysFeather In addition to all of these effects, the eye update was accompanied by a "standardization" of what became Common eyes. This "standardization" did not impact all poses, but was extremely noticeable on some. Many dragons who had been specifically bred or gened to have perfectly matching eyes, sometimes in projects costing real money, no longer had the eye color that had prompted their entire design. For some of these dragons in some elements, tints should have been the accessible fix; for others, there is currently no eye type that matches the one players spent their time and money matching. With the way scattersights were handled, even dragons that should have been able to adapt with tints do not always have that as a viable solution, and according to staff statements it was a mistake to allow that chance for anyone at all. For many players, this part of the update ruined something they could otherwise have come to terms with, and my heart goes out to everyone who signed in to FR and were hit with a huge shock on top of the eye update. [b]Why a Change Would be Beneficial[/b] There’re so many play styles that were negatively impacted by the eye update and not everyone enjoys constantly rebreeding their dragons. Some people like to take random dragons and customize them, some people like to collect all sorts of dragons. One of these play styles are G1 collectors and while yes we argue about this often they too were negatively affected by the eye update, whereas a G1 collector used to be able to completely change anything they wanted about a dragon (excluding Imp scrolls) they can no longer do so. They are just as limited as any of us by the breeding only changes and though their market is seemingly profiting most off special eye types they are also limited in customization. Eyes changed unexpectedly 5 years into the site causing several different upheavals in the existing markets at the time and they are not magically protected just because changing the eye system would crash a few markets. The existing dragon market crashed and changed drastically due to the eye update as mentioned before. FR was and is still praised for its customization although the eyes definitely hinder that aspect. By changing this we could once again open up a whole new wide range of customization options that are a huge factor in many play styles. Special ID collectors, G1 collectors, people who like their current dragons but want different eyes, oldie collectors, and lore lairs, people who just like customizing fodder rescues. All of these play styles would benefit [b]Why it’s Important to Everyone Involved[/b] An update to the eye system is important to many players for a variety of equally valid reasons. For some, an update to the system would show that the admins are listening, as the radio silence on the topic despite nearly three years of players requesting changes is disheartening. Even if the admins are planning or working on a solution to the current eye dilemma, a simple post in an announcement saying that we’ve been listening to the debate and are working on something, but have no ETA would allow players to feel that they have been heard. Allowing us a (non retired) way to add natural eyes to existing dragons would open up the eye system to a wider variety of play styles and not just to the players who do a lot of breeding. For many players one of the biggest draws to Flight Rising is the fact that players do not have to replace well loved dragons--unfortunately with the eye update to get a natural eye type that may be a perfect fit for a dragon a player must either use a dwindling supply of a retired RNG based item in the form of ScatterSight vials or replace the existing dragon with a clone with the appropriate eyes (which is impossible in some cases such as progens, dragons with special birthdays or ID numbers or other dragons with sentimental feelings behind them). Many players don’t even bother scrying dragons with special eyes because there is no reliable way to get these eyes on either an existing dragon or a future dragon project. If players aren’t using a feature of the site because they can’t reliably obtain it, there is room for improvement. Many players also see an update to the eye system as a way for the site to be more accessible to players with phobias. Many players who before the update, loved breeding have stopped breeding as much to avoid the potential of having an eye type that they find disturbing occur (and this isn’t just limited to primal or multi-gaze, some players find the faceted eyes provoke their bug related phobias, others find the horizontal pupil of goat disturbing). Several players have felt the need to move away from a flight because their particular primal eyes make them uneasy. These players may have loved the community of their flight, or the lore associated with the flight or even that particular eye color but the body horror of the primal eye required them to switch to be able to continue breeding. We’ve not had a new natural eye type since [url=https://www1.flightrising.com/forums/ann/2652507]Goat on March 22, 2019[/url] and we’ve not had a new unnatural eye type since [url=https://www1.flightrising.com/forums/ann/2758674]Innocent on September 30, 2019[/url]. Considering that adding a new eye type is only a little more difficult than adding new apparel (as the eyes would have to be drawn for all the modern breeds and all the ancient breeds) and we get apparel added on a regular basis, the time between new eye types is quite surprising. There is speculation that the reason for this is the backlash on the topic. In a way this is quite sad as there are so many possibilities for new eye types and most players want to see new eye types, they just want to be able to put them on any dragon they desire. [b]Shared Opinions & Common Ground[/b] Most of the issue a large segment of players have about the eyes (other than the radio silence) is they want to be able to add them to existing dragons. At this point many players would be upset with any changes at all, yet the lingering effects of the eye update are still causing problems that need to be addressed. Users are leaving from frustration on their seemingly endless projects, lack of control over what they see when they hatch a nest, or even the fact their playstyles are severely limited by the eye update. Most players love the eyes [i]but not the implementation[/i], both due to its exclusion of older dragons and because now players cannot avoid hatching body horror eyes in their own lairs unless they stop hatching altogether. A toggle could easily resolve the body horror problem without penalizing anyone who still wished to hatch those eyes themselves depending on what route staff choose for a possible fix. Users shouldn’t have to be punished for having phobias. Currently if a player finds multi-gaze, goat, facet, or primal disturbing, their only options are either to pay for a [gamedb item=26849] to remove the eyes (which means they lose some profit when it comes to levelling and exalting, as well as having to see the eyes in order to apply the vial), or they have to exalt it immediately which means they lose out on profit they could have had for selling on the Auction House or waiting until they are an adult and could be levelled/exalted. A toggle would mean that users never have to be shocked or penalized by hatching an eye type they find upsetting, which again is dependent on how staff choose to change eyes or not change them. While this would inherently reduce the number of dragons in the game with those eye types, it would in turn increase the value of special-eyed dragons hatched in lairs that still want to hatch them. A toggle would also mean players don’t have to pay to remove eyes that in many cases they quite literally did not sign up for, depending on what fix staff decide is best. Not all eye types are treated the same by staff; unnatural eye types are not even mentioned or explained with the lore. If some eye types can be applied why shouldn’t they all be applied. We were never given a lore reason for this. There is no lore saying that older dragons cannot be affected by the magic that caused new eye types in the first place, and in fact, with the Sanctums researching the surge in magic there’s a very good lore reason to allow older dragons to benefit from the eye types it caused. Many players agree it is possible to keep the natural eyes system but still have these eye types applicable to existing dragons to keep the enjoyment of potentially hatching something special in a nest. But because we cannot know for certain what staff may have in mind for a fix there is no guarantee that eyes will remain a breeding centric system at all. For all we know staff could decide to just make eyes all unnatural and treat them like apparel or skins, they could decide on a minimal route and make eyes applicable to other dragons via vials in the marketplace or through exalting, we could also see staff change the system to that of genes, even make all types natural, an npc transfer system, or even just give us a better explanation as to why the eyes have to stay as they are. The decision is not up to us but to staff. At this point in time most players do not want new natural eye types because they don’t want to see an eye type they may want on their dragons locked behind breeding. These players want to interact with the feature and the idea of new “natural” eye types is something that works against that in the current system. This can be seen with the reaction to the introduction of Goat where many players who wanted dragons with an eye type like it were stuck with only two vials, and if they weren’t around that week then they missed out entirely. This could also be seen as punishing players for not being active, which is in direct contradiction to staff’s stated intent with features like the 45-day inactivity energy top-up. Unlike many of Galore’s gifts, where the items (or in the case of some of the chests, their contents) may be obtained elsewhere on the site, those two goat vials were the only ones players could get. We want new eye types, but we want them to be accessible for everyone. [b]Commonly Known Disagreements[/b] Value of G1 special eyes Many players are concerned about how altering the current eye system would affect the G1 market. It would almost certainly crash the G1 Primal market as these would be less special if players could add Primal eyes to other dragons, including other G1 dragons. Currently many special eyed G1s would be considered fodder if it wasn’t for their special eyes, and yet those eyes cause them to be listed for prices far beyond the value of even G1 doubles. However, to offset this, it’s almost certain that G1s with good colors and/or matching eyes would become more valuable, as they were in the past. Value of non-G1 special eyes The fodder market would likely shift again, as currently many fodder breeders try to breed fodder that would look good with primal or multi eye in case they happen to hatch a special eye dragon. If those special eyes could be applied to another dragon, the need to ensure they’re not “wasted” by hatching on an “ugly” dragon would be eliminated. This would drop the value of non-G1s with special eyes and matchy colors even faster than they already are, but raise the value of non-G1s with special eyes overall as now even “ugly” special eyed dragons would be useful for more than sale as fodder. This would also have the advantage of hopefully more wide-range pairs being bred, which is important to the viability of XYZ breeding projects that are currently very difficult to find starter dragons for. Being able to apply special eyes to existing dragons could ruin the ‘rarity’ for these eyes as players would be no longer subjected to the whims of the RNG gods. This means a player who lucked out on hatching a Special eye dragon would be less likely to be able to sell it for a lot of money. However, it also means that years-long breeding projects would become a thing of the past, making for more room in lairs as keeping many identical pairs for one project would no longer be necessary, freeing up space for more permadragons and boosting the non-fodder dragon market overall. On the whole, we feel that lessening the value of these specific markets will be worth it for the benefits to the wider markets this would boost. [i]Did the staff intend for some dragons to be worth more than others just because of their eyes? Were new dragons supposed to be better than older ones? This has never been the case with genes, so why must eyes be so different?[/i] For some/many players it felt like they were intended to be more special, since the admins stated “[url=https://www1.flightrising.com/forums/frd/2457301#post_2457301]We felt that adding some extra magic would be a really great way for all players to have the opportunity to produce hatchlings with a little something special (every now and again) to make them rare and valuable.[/url]” As such, changing the system would counter this desire, but validate playstyles invalidated in the original statement. [b]In Conclusion[/b] To our understanding our past threads that suggested or promoted any one “fix” or “solution” have all made quite a bad impression on the community to reach the hostility we’re at now and we want to make amends to that. As we currently know the community is lacking empathy to one another over this issue and we want to leave the past behind us to instead make a more civilized discussion about the fact that natural eyes [b]do[/b] need a change and we have many different ideas for staff and users to consider. We ask that you don’t go out of your way to read our past threads in their entirety due to the sheer lack of empathy and ability to be civil that lies within them. This thread will hopefully prove to both the staff and the rest of the community that we can get along and unify in a civilized manner for a common cause. We will be adding these previous ideas to this thread in a new light instead so we can leave the past behind us, but these threads can still be found if you want to read them. Here are just a few of the more common ones, it is not a comprehensive list. These are listed in no particular order, and we ask you all not to go out of your way to necro older threads. And remember there is a search function for the forums if you want to find them. We have also written a few of our personal favorite ideas in the posts below. [list][*]Methods to Introduce Natural Eyes on Existing Dragons [List][*]ScatterSight Vials [List][*]Reintroduce existing vials but they should be updated with goat and when future natural eyes are added, they also be added to the vials [*]Introduce new Scattersight Vials--one being a tint only vial, and other being a special eye vial[/list] [*]Introduction of individual eye vials [*]Eye Transfer System [*]1:1 exalting for vial [*]Random exalt drop [*]Vials purchasable in an Exalt Shop [*]Baldwin Brew using a component (either universal component or eye specific component) that drops from exalting [/list] [*]Changes to the Eye System [List][*]Allow players to opt out of special eyes (all dragons they hatch while toggle is engaged would be common eyes) [*]Replace the RNG system with a system similar to the gene system [*]Add a small chance of inheriting one parents eye type [/list][/list] We can all agree that we want eyes to change in some way, but we cannot agree on how so we have come to make this thread so staff and users alike can read our concerns and hopefully see our perspective and discuss their own. We ask that you add or build upon your own ideal way to fix the eye system, if you have one, and we invite discussion of our reasoning. This is to benefit more players, so please read our posts on this thread sharing our previous ideas for possible fixes. Once again, none of us could agree on which one would be the best fix so we present them all for your consideration. Once again, please keep everything respectful when discussing any proposed changes- we do not know if we will be getting any changes at all, and it is up to staff what form those changes will take if they do occur. Finally, please remember there is another person on the other end of the screen, and they believe what they’re saying just as much as you believe in your position. Thank you for reading our combined work on the natural eye system. @BlueJaysFeather @Mystiek @DragonSage @Almedha

Eye Vial Drops From Exalting
This one is pretty self explanatory: you exalt a dragon with Rare eyes, you get a Rare eye vial. You exalt a dragon with Multigaze, you get a Multigaze vial. There are a few possible lore explanations for this, the easiest being that your deity blesses the dragon the vial is used on with BOTE magic as thanks for exalting such a magically powerful dragon to them.

Pros:
-Simple
-Retains both 1:1 ratio of eyes hatched to eyes on active dragons and staff vision around hatching special eyes
-Accessible to any player whether they’ve been onsite for a week or for seven years
-Encourages exalting, which is good for the site and the dragon economy
-Even if a toggle to only hatch common eyes is never implemented, instantly exalting these dragons now gives a vial that can be sold, dramatically reducing if not eliminating the cost of not waiting to level the dragon

Cons:
-Might feel too easy to some players
-Exalting also generates treasure, which leads to inflation
-The same old exalt drama that’s been a reportable offense for years

---

Baldwin Brew using a component that drops from exalting
This idea builds on the idea of exalting a special eyed dragon giving a vial, but adds in some genuine challenge for those who prefer that obtaining special eyes feel like an actual accomplishment, while also acting as a sink for some of the treasure generated by the exalting that this method would encourage. In this method, either the deity or the sanctum researchers provide the component as thanks for exalting a special-eyed dragon. In this case, there would be separate components for each special eye type.

The special components would then be taken to Baldwin, because if any dragon is gonna figure out how to use these suckers it’s the dragon who accidentally invented Bogsneaks. They are activated in Baldwin’s cauldron and bottled in a usable form that acts just like the unnatural eye vials we know and love.

Pros:
-Encourages exalting, which promotes site health as it removes dragons from the economy
-Retains 1:1 ratio of dragons hatched with special eyes and active dragons with special eyes, as well as staff vision of hatching eyes being a good thing
-Acts as a treasure sink, which is good for inflation, as well as a Baldwin material sink, which is good for anyone who melts items with Baldwin as they will now sell for more
-Can be individually balanced in recipe cost by type
-Even if a toggle to only hatch common eyes is never implemented, instantly exalting these dragons now gives a component that can be sold, dramatically reducing if not eliminating the cost of not waiting to level the dragon
-Getting special eyes on a dragon now has an element of genuine challenge and accomplishment rather than being pure luck
-SANCTUM LORE

Cons:
-More complex than some alternative suggestions
-Likely requires leveling Baldwin before crafting vials
-Same old exalt drama, same old report button

(May I post or should I delete and wait?)

The "Eye Vial Drops From Exalting" could have an alternative - like how now sometimes at random you get 1 or 2 gems, you could also get a random vial ("[deity] was especially pleased and gifts you a Vial of [something]").

Pro: not as easy as 1:1, so lessening the effect on bred or G1 dragons with rarer eyes
Con: keeps the randomness, though at least at a smaller rate.

Another possibility, slightly similar and slightly different to the Quat Gene suggestion.

What if all eyes were the same for the sake of consistency and overcoming confusion? As in, what if all natural eyes got vials, and what if all unnatural eyes had a chance to pop up through breeding? This wouldn't be inheritable, hence the main difference from the Quat suggestion.

I'm not sure how I feel about it, but I am interested in people's thoughts.

EDIT:
Another idea that has popped up about transferring eyes is a lab-ray/reflecting pool type system. If you want to add that to the OP.

Since various aspects of the exalting for eyes has been mentioned in the bullet point list, you could also flesh out the individual eye vial suggest--as that includes using various site mechanics including Baldwin, Swipp, the Coli, both MPs, and possibly even Adventure Mode in the future.

Also, like RedWilia, let me know if I need to delete and repost so the first few posts can be all the ideas.

[center][b]ScatterSight Vials[/b][/center] Considering the admins have already introduced a mechanism in the form of scattersight vials to introduce natural eyes to the game, one of the easiest ways to code to allow different natural eyes on existing dragons is to reintroduce existing vials. They would need to be updated with goat and when future natural eyes are added, they also be added to the vials. Pros [LIST] [*]Coding already exists [*]Would be able to keep similar odds to breeding [/LIST] Cons [LIST] [*]RNG can be frustrating [*]Depending on where they are introduced there is the possibility of running into gambling concerns [/LIST] A modification to the above idea is to introduce new Scattersight Vials--one being a tint only vial, and other being a special eye vial Pros[LIST] [*]Easier odds compared to a scatterscroll with all natural eye options [*]Would be less concern of gambling [/list] Cons [list] [*]Still RNG based [*]Depending on where the scrolls could be found, may result in a flood of special eyes [/LIST] [center][b]Introduction of individual eye vials[/b][/center] Introduce vials of the various natural eyes that could be found in a variety of ways:Treasure martlet, gem market, chests, coliseum, gathering, etc Pros[LIST] [*]Depending on source, easily accessible [*]No gambling [/list] Cons [list] [*]Depending on where the scrolls could be found, may result in a flood of special eyes [*]Does not keep to spirit of breeding only/keeping eyes rare [/LIST] [center][b]Small chance of inheriting one parents eye type[/b][/center] It is possible to keep the RNG aspects of eyes while introducing a degree of inheritability of eyes. This could be achieved by having a small chance of inheriting a parents eyes. For example: -2.5% of mother’s eye type -2.5% of father’s eye type -95% random (current system) This would help slight for breeding projects for a particular eye type, it could also be a way to make unnatural eye types a bit more natural by giving an unnatural eye type parent a slim chance to pass on their eye type to offspring. I know I probably would use more unnatural eye types from the gem marketplace if they had a chance of being inherited. Especially innocent eyes for a lot of the small eyed breeds. The biggest concern I can see with this is it would make special eye dragons more common which might erode some of their specialness

[quote name="gemajgall" date="2021-04-03 09:49:53" ] [Quote] It is also noted that the differences between the eye systems and the gene and breed systems are so different to one another it causes confusion for newer players or casual players. This was very notable for the release of innocent and goat. Newer or casual players were confused as to why some eyes were breeding only and why some were buy only and this should be addressed if we get a fix or not. A entire system should not be so confusing or complicated to new or casual players and needs addressed just as much as other concerns. [/quote] Another possibility, slightly similar and slightly different to the Quat Gene suggestion. What if all eyes were the same for the sake of consistency and overcoming confusion? As in, what if all natural eyes got vials, and what if all unnatural eyes had a chance to pop up through breeding? This wouldn't be inheritable, hence the main difference from the Quat suggestion. I'm not sure how I feel about it, but I am interested in people's thoughts. [/quote] Huh. I kinda really like this actually, and it merges the two mechanics staff are already using to distribute eyes and therefore are presumably okay with

[quote name="MistFury0" date="2021-04-03 11:24:47" ] [quote] There’re so many play styles that were negatively impacted by the eye update and not everyone enjoys constantly rebreeding their dragons. Some people like to take random dragons and customize them, some people like to collect all sorts of dragons. One of these play styles are G1 collectors and while yes we argue about this often they too were negatively affected by the eye update, whereas a G1 collector used to be able to completely change anything they wanted about a dragon (excluding Imp scrolls) they can no longer do so. They are just as limited as any of us by the breeding only changes and though their market is seemingly profiting most off special eye types they are also limited in customization.[/quote] I’ve been watching ever since the new HOT ITEMS was added to the gem mp. Tricolor scatters have not left that page ever since the mp change, the reason we won’t see a eye update or change is because of g1s. Staff make more money from gem item sales and tricolor scatters are often used dozens of times and this means staff make more money by keeping eyes severely limited or ruining any other experience or market. Eyes won’t change because g1s literally bring the most money to site with tri color scatters and Wildclaw scrolls. Believe me I want a change but unless people STOP buying tricolor scatters for special eyed g1s we won’t get a change based off where gem sales are going. [/quote] Do we have numbers at how many of the scatterscrolls go for G1s and non-G1s? How about gem breed and gene scrolls that go on G1s and non-G1s? Because dragons in general bring in a lot of money. The only G1s I have in my lair are progens, yet I have spent real money and a lot of treasure putting scrolls, accents, and clothing on them. I don't know if it's possible to compare the two markets. I think I can safely say that non-G1 lairs are the majority. But beyond that? Someone with a whole lair filled with non-G1s, spending money on them, versus someone spending money on a G1 (or more than one)? I don't think I can say with absolutely certainty that G1s bring more money to the site than non-G1s. And for that, I don't think that the non-G1 dragons should be sacrificed for the G1s.

[quote name="MistFury0" date="2021-04-03 11:24:47" ] [quote] There’re so many play styles that were negatively impacted by the eye update and not everyone enjoys constantly rebreeding their dragons. Some people like to take random dragons and customize them, some people like to collect all sorts of dragons. One of these play styles are G1 collectors and while yes we argue about this often they too were negatively affected by the eye update, whereas a G1 collector used to be able to completely change anything they wanted about a dragon (excluding Imp scrolls) they can no longer do so. They are just as limited as any of us by the breeding only changes and though their market is seemingly profiting most off special eye types they are also limited in customization.[/quote] I’ve been watching ever since the new HOT ITEMS was added to the gem mp. Tricolor scatters have not left that page ever since the mp change, the reason we won’t see a eye update or change is because of g1s. Staff make more money from gem item sales and tricolor scatters are often used dozens of times and this means staff make more money by keeping eyes severely limited or ruining any other experience or market. Eyes won’t change because g1s literally bring the most money to site with tri color scatters and Wildclaw scrolls. Believe me I want a change but unless people STOP buying tricolor scatters for special eyed g1s we won’t get a change based off where gem sales are going. [/quote] Okay, I have to say that this doesn't make sense to me. They would make MORE money by tossing either scattervials or individual vials into the gem shop. Yes, there may be people who will buy scatterscrolls for gen1s, or for random dragons, but if they tossed all individual eye vials into the at even 100 gems a vial, that is a LOT of vials that are going to be sold, and they will always be in demand because of breeding. Since the vials wouldn't be 100 gems a vial, but more likely 1000 for primal, and maybe 100 for the tints (which could be turned into more money by making it a scattertint instead of straight up rare, uncommon, unusual vials.), I would be willing to guarantee that they would make MUCH more money than they do off scatterscrolls. So no, I sincerely doubt that the reason no changes have been made are because of gen1s and gem sales, because they have ways to turn the natural eyes into much more of a gem sink than scatter scrolls are. Plus, I just want to remark on the 'hot items' section. Of course scatterscrolls are going to be in the hot items. As said, you often need several scatterscrolls while the others that are in there now (Boon of Fertility, Scroll of Eternal Youth, Sillouette Scroll, and Breed Change Veilspun and Tertiary Gene Koi) are things that you typically only need for a specific dragon and you only need one of them for that dragon. You can't apply two breed change veilspuns to the same dragon (maybe you can, but it wouldn't be logical to do so), Most people don't use the boon of fertility because the hatchlings often don't cover the cost of it, and much like the breed/gene changes, you only need to apply the EY scroll and Pose change scroll once. Besides that, FR is notoriously slow about changes. After 7 years, we just now got a market revamp. It has been how many years for a coliseum captcha change? It was five years after the start of the site that we got the eyes, and they said they wanted them when they first started the site. Adventure mode anyone? I think the more likely reason we haven't had changes is because they don't particularly want to change it, so are discussing it (either how to break it to the site, or see if there are any changes that might satisfy them as well as the userbase) and that FR is just slow about changing/implementing things in general.

I love this thread, but- please- a tl;dr would be much appreciated!