People do come up with ideas though. Dom shops and the other stuff in the Fayd thread, messing with the algorithm, making exaltation not exclusively tied to coli (ie by being able to give items or money to an NPC to help your flight's dom efforts), making the dom rewards better and more worthwhile. Not everyone will agree with these suggestions, and there are some that I don't like myself, but it's a lie to say that nobody is making them.
TOPIC | Please Fix Dominance
People do come up with ideas though. Dom shops and the other stuff in the Fayd thread, messing with the algorithm, making exaltation not exclusively tied to coli (ie by being able to give items or money to an NPC to help your flight's dom efforts), making the dom rewards better and more worthwhile. Not everyone will agree with these suggestions, and there are some that I don't like myself, but it's a lie to say that nobody is making them.
[quote name="Almedha" date="2020-05-26 10:04:00" ]
[quote]This is a suggestion forum, not a "whine about how I don't like x" forum.[/quote]
Aw, come on. Just because you think dom is fine the way it is doesn't mean every suggestion to change it (even without a solid "now, this is how you code it" or step-by-step instruction on how exactly they'd want it) is [i]whining[/i]. That's ludicrous. I mean, for one thing, we don't even know exactly how dominance works. We have an idea, but that's it. Therefore, we're left with little option than to say that however it works now isn't working.[/quote]Er, you come on...
I [b]don't[/b] think it's fine the way it is though. I [b]do[/b] think it needs to be tweaked. I [b]do[/b] think the rewards are too small for placing.
Nor do I think [b]every[/b] suggestion to change it is whining.
But there absolutely have been threads made in the past that were little more than players being sour that certain flights were winning regularly, and threads like this where the OP failed to actually offer an implementable suggestion.
And then there have been threads like Fayd's Exaltation Overhaul that are well thought out and could make a real difference in how much people enjoy the feature, and how many people would participate in the feature.
[quote name="Almedha" date="2020-05-26 10:04:00" ]
[quote]People post even more regularly about how bonding with familiars is tedious. And while they are correct, that doesn't mean there should be a bond all button...[/quote]
And the only worthwhile difference here is that a bond all button would be disastrous for the site's economy. Whereas making dominance more attractive for everyone to enjoy it would largely benefit the site.
[/quote]That difference perfectly illustrates an important point though: People need to consider the impact their suggestion will have on the site as a whole. They shouldn't simply say that something isn't fun, so it should be changed.
Again: I DO think making dominance more appealing to more players would be a good thing, and I said so in my initial post.
[quote name="Kitava" date="2020-05-26 10:06:32" ]
but it's a lie to say that nobody is making them.
[/quote]No one did...
Almedha wrote on 2020-05-26 10:04:00:
Quote:
This is a suggestion forum, not a "whine about how I don't like x" forum.
I don't think it's fine the way it is though. I do think it needs to be tweaked. I do think the rewards are too small for placing.
Nor do I think every suggestion to change it is whining.
But there absolutely have been threads made in the past that were little more than players being sour that certain flights were winning regularly, and threads like this where the OP failed to actually offer an implementable suggestion.
And then there have been threads like Fayd's Exaltation Overhaul that are well thought out and could make a real difference in how much people enjoy the feature, and how many people would participate in the feature.
Almedha wrote on 2020-05-26 10:04:00:
Quote:
People post even more regularly about how bonding with familiars is tedious. And while they are correct, that doesn't mean there should be a bond all button...
Again: I DO think making dominance more appealing to more players would be a good thing, and I said so in my initial post.
Kitava wrote on 2020-05-26 10:06:32:
but it's a lie to say that nobody is making them.
[quote]And then there have been threads like Fayd's Exaltation Overhaul that are well thought out and could make a real difference in how much people enjoy the feature, and how many people would participate in the feature.[/quote]
Fayd's Exaltation Overhaul is... an [i]overhaul[/i]. It's not a "tweak." Dom doesn't need a band-aid, it needs the equivalent of a total hip replacement. And saying it doesn't just shuts down discussion because if all we need is a tweak, that implies it's really not that bad.
Now, I do think that a lot of times threads like this particular one aren't all that helpful when all anybody contributes is stuff like, "This isn't it, though." And then leave it at that. Suggestions forums is meant for [i]discussion[/i] about how to make an idea or concept work. If we just keep looking at the initial post and don't offer anything else except, "No, this isn't how to fix it" and that's all, then yeah. It's just whining. But not always by the original poster.
Putting everyone who wants to make dom better (though they may not have an elegant solution to present) up against someone like Fayd is unfair [i]and[/i] unproductive. If all the staff wanted were individuals' ideas, then we wouldn't have this forum; they'd just have a sort of ticket system. They want [i]discussion[/i] about suggestions.
I don't know what the thread for Fayd's Overhaul looks like these days, but even last I saw that thread was like, "This would be great!" and that's it. There's a reason we're not really supposed to be saying just things like that.
Quote:
And then there have been threads like Fayd's Exaltation Overhaul that are well thought out and could make a real difference in how much people enjoy the feature, and how many people would participate in the feature.
Now, I do think that a lot of times threads like this particular one aren't all that helpful when all anybody contributes is stuff like, "This isn't it, though." And then leave it at that. Suggestions forums is meant for discussion about how to make an idea or concept work. If we just keep looking at the initial post and don't offer anything else except, "No, this isn't how to fix it" and that's all, then yeah. It's just whining. But not always by the original poster.
Putting everyone who wants to make dom better (though they may not have an elegant solution to present) up against someone like Fayd is unfair and unproductive. If all the staff wanted were individuals' ideas, then we wouldn't have this forum; they'd just have a sort of ticket system. They want discussion about suggestions.
I don't know what the thread for Fayd's Overhaul looks like these days, but even last I saw that thread was like, "This would be great!" and that's it. There's a reason we're not really supposed to be saying just things like that.
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Yeah threads like this are good for generating ideas and discussion. OP expressed their problems with dom, and other players chimed in to say whether or not they agreed that dom was boring or unbalanced, and if so what could be done about it. The first post doesn't need to be a comprehensive explanation of what a player wants, otherwise the thread would have no discussion and would just be a chain of "support" or "no support".
Yeah threads like this are good for generating ideas and discussion. OP expressed their problems with dom, and other players chimed in to say whether or not they agreed that dom was boring or unbalanced, and if so what could be done about it. The first post doesn't need to be a comprehensive explanation of what a player wants, otherwise the thread would have no discussion and would just be a chain of "support" or "no support".
[quote name="Almedha" date="2020-05-26 10:23:40" ]
Fayd's Exaltation Overhaul is... an [i]overhaul[/i]. It's not a "tweak." Dom doesn't need a band-aid, it needs the equivalent of a total hip replacement. And saying it doesn't just shuts down discussion because if all we need is a tweak, that implies it's really not that bad.[/quote]It's not really an overhaul of the dominance mechanic though... and while I acknowledge that the features are greatly intertwined, and overhauling how exalting is done would certainly impact dominance in general, when I think of a [i]dominance overhaul[/i] I think a complete reworking of [b]that[/b] feature (ie, changing rewards, changing fatigue, changing the ratio algorithm, implementing non-exalting methods that would impact flight placement on the leaderboard). While 'The Temple' portion of Fayd's suggestion would almost surely have an impact player's decisions to exalted dragons, I personally do not consider that a rework of the dominance mechanic.
When it comes to a complete rework of the dominance system, I worry that changing things like the ratio algorithm, which is suggested often, would have just as many negative consequences as positive. That is why I say that I think it needs to be tweaked... More tweaks can always be added, undoing issues that could result from a complete overhaul would be far more difficult to do.
Almedha wrote on 2020-05-26 10:23:40:
Fayd's Exaltation Overhaul is... an overhaul. It's not a "tweak." Dom doesn't need a band-aid, it needs the equivalent of a total hip replacement. And saying it doesn't just shuts down discussion because if all we need is a tweak, that implies it's really not that bad.
When it comes to a complete rework of the dominance system, I worry that changing things like the ratio algorithm, which is suggested often, would have just as many negative consequences as positive. That is why I say that I think it needs to be tweaked... More tweaks can always be added, undoing issues that could result from a complete overhaul would be far more difficult to do.
[quote]I worry that changing things like the ratio algorithm, which is suggested often, would have just as many negative consequences as positive.[/quote]
Over time, people have found ways to optimize for the current algorithm. Changing that algorithm, unless they change it to "literally random" would just mean finding the new optimum. Then everyone's mad again.
Anyway.
[quote]FR is heavily based towards grinding - coli grinding, fairgrounds grinding, alchemy grinding, gathering grinding, bonding is grinding. All progression on FR is tied to grinding, no matter what.[/quote]
Agree with this, and I don't think it's a bad thing.
I guess part of me wonders how many of the "Exalting isn't worth it" people would ACTUALLY start exalting heavily and regularly if some of the proposed "fixes" were implemented. Coli would still be a grind that removes dragons from the game permanently. If one of the most reliable, non-capped money makers on the site isn't enough incentive, why would adding things like extra items that will oversaturate the market in a week or two or creating MORE incentive to lump into dom-heavy flights by making flight-wide bonuses even more financially lucrative tip that scale?
I'd be interested in hearing from people who don't regularly exalt now, talking about what would make exalting, say, 10 dragons a day worth it to them, and whether those change would be game-breaking if also applied to the people who exalt 50+ dragons daily.
Quote:
I worry that changing things like the ratio algorithm, which is suggested often, would have just as many negative consequences as positive.
Over time, people have found ways to optimize for the current algorithm. Changing that algorithm, unless they change it to "literally random" would just mean finding the new optimum. Then everyone's mad again.
Anyway.
Quote:
FR is heavily based towards grinding - coli grinding, fairgrounds grinding, alchemy grinding, gathering grinding, bonding is grinding. All progression on FR is tied to grinding, no matter what.
I guess part of me wonders how many of the "Exalting isn't worth it" people would ACTUALLY start exalting heavily and regularly if some of the proposed "fixes" were implemented. Coli would still be a grind that removes dragons from the game permanently. If one of the most reliable, non-capped money makers on the site isn't enough incentive, why would adding things like extra items that will oversaturate the market in a week or two or creating MORE incentive to lump into dom-heavy flights by making flight-wide bonuses even more financially lucrative tip that scale?
I'd be interested in hearing from people who don't regularly exalt now, talking about what would make exalting, say, 10 dragons a day worth it to them, and whether those change would be game-breaking if also applied to the people who exalt 50+ dragons daily.
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I think if there were different dom bonuses each week, that would make it better. a little like Roundsey, how it differs and is mixed up all the time.
[quote name="LordJeanliness" date="2020-05-26 11:57:46" ]
[quote]I worry that changing things like the ratio algorithm, which is suggested often, would have just as many negative consequences as positive.[/quote]
Over time, people have found ways to optimize for the current algorithm. Changing that algorithm, unless they change it to "literally random" would just mean finding the new optimum. Then everyone's mad again.
Anyway.
[quote]FR is heavily based towards grinding - coli grinding, fairgrounds grinding, alchemy grinding, gathering grinding, bonding is grinding. All progression on FR is tied to grinding, no matter what.[/quote]
Agree with this, and I don't think it's a bad thing.
I guess part of me wonders how many of the "Exalting isn't worth it" people would ACTUALLY start exalting heavily and regularly if some of the proposed "fixes" were implemented. Coli would still be a grind that removes dragons from the game permanently. If one of the most reliable, non-capped money makers on the site isn't enough incentive, why would adding things like extra items that will oversaturate the market in a week or two or creating MORE incentive to lump into dom-heavy flights by making flight-wide bonuses even more financially lucrative tip that scale?
I'd be interested in hearing from people who don't regularly exalt now, talking about what would make exalting, say, 10 dragons a day worth it to them, and whether those change would be game-breaking if also applied to the people who exalt 50+ dragons daily.
[/quote]
As someone who doesn't exalt now, I would say that potentially (depending on the rewards and how it was done) something like an exalting shop, where I could get points to spend on pretty things, would make me exalt.
The treasure is nice, but honestly, to me it still isn't worth it, because I then have to go try to find something nice to buy with those points. If the item is a treasure MP item, I have to hope it is in stock, or that the markup on it isn't too high from the AH. Swipp trades I have to worry about the item for the trade being sold for more than the individual items would be, so it would actually be more worth it to buy the items and wait for the trade (if I am patient enough). Baldwin items I can usually do myself, so I don't need to buy from someone else. Coliseum items and things like that? I have to first know what there is to buy before I can actually buy it. And again, I can also grind for those items myself.
So, to me, ultimately treasure isn't something that is going to make me sit up and think 'hey I need to exalt dragons!' especially since I would have to breed my own, or keep track of payout to make sure that I don't buy a dragon for more money than I get exalting it, or I would have to make sure to train all dragons, which I can hardly make myself train the dragons I have now, much less random ones just to toss them at the tidelord and hope they find him. Then there are the issues surrounding names and just exalting in general that I could run into if I buy other dragons to exalt, and the fact I use my fodder dragons as familiar holders, so every time I wanted to exalt, I would have to remove all those familiars, then put them on the new dragons.
Ultimately, to me, it just isn't worth it, with my playstyle, as well as my personality. However, if there were more incentives, especially a shop where I wouldn't have to rely on other people (and it would always be in stock, no 'restocking mechanic') and could just toss dragons right and left out of my lair and work my way towards that item? I would be much more likely to do that.
As for applying it to the heavy exalters? Yeah, they would have distinct advantages, but that could be mitigated by having some items that players would have to exalt hundreds of dragons a day for a couple of months to afford, as well as players realizing that not everything *has* to be expensive. (or, you know, making the items that we get through the exalt shop consumable and desirable, so that even heavy exalting won't make a huge dent in their prices)
One reason why I don't tend to agree with 'overhaul dom' threads is that many times the suggestions they put forth are more about punishing whatever flight is currently a dom powerhouse, or making it so that all flights basically take turns at dom, than it is about actually overhauling dominance. Honestly, I don't really know how to overhaul dominance to make it fun, still a competition, and keep the core mechanic exalting dragons. I personally think that opening up dominance to count other things such as donations etc... would potentially make dominance less effective, and more controverisal with the 'this flight BOUGHT dominance!' aspect to being able to donate treasure. I also don't know how trying to incorporate all the other aspects that players have come up with for hellping their flight's dom teams would work, or if they would be beneficial.
LordJeanliness wrote on 2020-05-26 11:57:46:
Quote:
I worry that changing things like the ratio algorithm, which is suggested often, would have just as many negative consequences as positive.
Over time, people have found ways to optimize for the current algorithm. Changing that algorithm, unless they change it to "literally random" would just mean finding the new optimum. Then everyone's mad again.
Anyway.
Quote:
FR is heavily based towards grinding - coli grinding, fairgrounds grinding, alchemy grinding, gathering grinding, bonding is grinding. All progression on FR is tied to grinding, no matter what.
I guess part of me wonders how many of the "Exalting isn't worth it" people would ACTUALLY start exalting heavily and regularly if some of the proposed "fixes" were implemented. Coli would still be a grind that removes dragons from the game permanently. If one of the most reliable, non-capped money makers on the site isn't enough incentive, why would adding things like extra items that will oversaturate the market in a week or two or creating MORE incentive to lump into dom-heavy flights by making flight-wide bonuses even more financially lucrative tip that scale?
I'd be interested in hearing from people who don't regularly exalt now, talking about what would make exalting, say, 10 dragons a day worth it to them, and whether those change would be game-breaking if also applied to the people who exalt 50+ dragons daily.
The treasure is nice, but honestly, to me it still isn't worth it, because I then have to go try to find something nice to buy with those points. If the item is a treasure MP item, I have to hope it is in stock, or that the markup on it isn't too high from the AH. Swipp trades I have to worry about the item for the trade being sold for more than the individual items would be, so it would actually be more worth it to buy the items and wait for the trade (if I am patient enough). Baldwin items I can usually do myself, so I don't need to buy from someone else. Coliseum items and things like that? I have to first know what there is to buy before I can actually buy it. And again, I can also grind for those items myself.
So, to me, ultimately treasure isn't something that is going to make me sit up and think 'hey I need to exalt dragons!' especially since I would have to breed my own, or keep track of payout to make sure that I don't buy a dragon for more money than I get exalting it, or I would have to make sure to train all dragons, which I can hardly make myself train the dragons I have now, much less random ones just to toss them at the tidelord and hope they find him. Then there are the issues surrounding names and just exalting in general that I could run into if I buy other dragons to exalt, and the fact I use my fodder dragons as familiar holders, so every time I wanted to exalt, I would have to remove all those familiars, then put them on the new dragons.
Ultimately, to me, it just isn't worth it, with my playstyle, as well as my personality. However, if there were more incentives, especially a shop where I wouldn't have to rely on other people (and it would always be in stock, no 'restocking mechanic') and could just toss dragons right and left out of my lair and work my way towards that item? I would be much more likely to do that.
As for applying it to the heavy exalters? Yeah, they would have distinct advantages, but that could be mitigated by having some items that players would have to exalt hundreds of dragons a day for a couple of months to afford, as well as players realizing that not everything *has* to be expensive. (or, you know, making the items that we get through the exalt shop consumable and desirable, so that even heavy exalting won't make a huge dent in their prices)
One reason why I don't tend to agree with 'overhaul dom' threads is that many times the suggestions they put forth are more about punishing whatever flight is currently a dom powerhouse, or making it so that all flights basically take turns at dom, than it is about actually overhauling dominance. Honestly, I don't really know how to overhaul dominance to make it fun, still a competition, and keep the core mechanic exalting dragons. I personally think that opening up dominance to count other things such as donations etc... would potentially make dominance less effective, and more controverisal with the 'this flight BOUGHT dominance!' aspect to being able to donate treasure. I also don't know how trying to incorporate all the other aspects that players have come up with for hellping their flight's dom teams would work, or if they would be beneficial.
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[quote name="ConsumeGears" date="2020-05-26 12:31:35" ]
I think if there were different dom bonuses each week, that would make it better. a little like Roundsey, how it differs and is mixed up all the time.
[/quote]
Honestly, while it sounds interesting, I am not sure it would work well. Roundsey works because you are buying tickets for that week.
HOwever, with Dominance, you are vying for dom the week BEFORE you get it, so players would have to know what specific bonuses are going to be next week, which might get a bit confusing with the bonuses for this week.
ConsumeGears wrote on 2020-05-26 12:31:35:
I think if there were different dom bonuses each week, that would make it better. a little like Roundsey, how it differs and is mixed up all the time.
HOwever, with Dominance, you are vying for dom the week BEFORE you get it, so players would have to know what specific bonuses are going to be next week, which might get a bit confusing with the bonuses for this week.
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[quote name="Jemadar" date="2020-05-26 12:40:07" ]
As someone who doesn't exalt now, I would say that potentially (depending on the rewards and how it was done) something like an exalting shop, where I could get points to spend on pretty things, would make me exalt.
...
So, to me, ultimately treasure isn't something that is going to make me sit up and think 'hey I need to exalt dragons!' ...
However, if there were more incentives, especially a shop where I wouldn't have to rely on other people (and it would always be in stock, no 'restocking mechanic') and could just toss dragons right and left out of my lair and work my way towards that item? I would be much more likely to do that.
As for applying it to the heavy exalters? Yeah, they would have distinct advantages, but that could be mitigated by having some items that players would have to exalt hundreds of dragons a day for a couple of months to afford, as well as players realizing that not everything *has* to be expensive. (or, you know, making the items that we get through the exalt shop consumable and desirable, so that even heavy exalting won't make a huge dent in their prices
[/quote]
My concern with a dom shop is keeping it fresh. How long would it take for the AH to be pretty full of the new items, thus removing the need for a particular player to actually exalt to obtain them? Unless the items somehow stay prohibitively expensive in the AH, it'll stop being that big a deal in about a month. How long do you think it'll take until buying the items with treasure on the MP is WAY less effort than obtaining/training/exalting dragons to access them for players who don't like the grind? That would be the effect of mass-exalters on a dom shop: access to the items outside of using the exalt mechanic.
(If the items can't be sold in the AH, it'll turn exalting into a mechanic that NEEDS to be used in order to get the shiny thing and that'll be .....not good for the exalt drama. IMO, the drama would not be worth it.)
Jemadar wrote on 2020-05-26 12:40:07:
As someone who doesn't exalt now, I would say that potentially (depending on the rewards and how it was done) something like an exalting shop, where I could get points to spend on pretty things, would make me exalt.
...
So, to me, ultimately treasure isn't something that is going to make me sit up and think 'hey I need to exalt dragons!' ...
However, if there were more incentives, especially a shop where I wouldn't have to rely on other people (and it would always be in stock, no 'restocking mechanic') and could just toss dragons right and left out of my lair and work my way towards that item? I would be much more likely to do that.
As for applying it to the heavy exalters? Yeah, they would have distinct advantages, but that could be mitigated by having some items that players would have to exalt hundreds of dragons a day for a couple of months to afford, as well as players realizing that not everything *has* to be expensive. (or, you know, making the items that we get through the exalt shop consumable and desirable, so that even heavy exalting won't make a huge dent in their prices
My concern with a dom shop is keeping it fresh. How long would it take for the AH to be pretty full of the new items, thus removing the need for a particular player to actually exalt to obtain them? Unless the items somehow stay prohibitively expensive in the AH, it'll stop being that big a deal in about a month. How long do you think it'll take until buying the items with treasure on the MP is WAY less effort than obtaining/training/exalting dragons to access them for players who don't like the grind? That would be the effect of mass-exalters on a dom shop: access to the items outside of using the exalt mechanic.
(If the items can't be sold in the AH, it'll turn exalting into a mechanic that NEEDS to be used in order to get the shiny thing and that'll be .....not good for the exalt drama. IMO, the drama would not be worth it.)
Help I'm trapped in a signature!