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Morning, I am starting the catchup, just gonna drop one thing right now, as I was pinged about it: [quote name="dandelionfires" date="2022-12-22 15:36:18" ] @InuKimi Art makes a good point, what were you up to last night? I don't really see any harm in sharing since you've already roleclaimed. [/quote] I was checking up on [b]natsinab[/b] and the result came back as [i]Town[/i], though obviously that doesn't have to say anything, because it could have been tampered with.

[quote name="@StormDreamer" date="2022-12-23 01:02:50" ] though, if hiii is a watcher then it makes no sense for hiii to not have used their ability n1 :O @/hiii sorry if i missed it, but [b]why did you not use your ability n1? [/b]my recollection re: what happened at the start of d2 when asked about who you visited was that you didn't want to roleclaim.[/quote] as i said earlier, i was the one who revealed the role list. it doesn't target anyone so it didn't count as a visit, but i'm sure that ability was assumed to be a non-visit ability by everyone. i didn't want to reveal it because i had no information from my active (since i didn't use it until n2) and i didn't want to reveal too much because mafia could very easily figure out that i was scribe. [quote name="StormDreamer" date="2022-12-23 01:02:50" ] [quote name="BerryBagel" date="2022-12-22 13:17:19" ] Otherwise, I agree with pretty much all of Art’s post here. [quote=Art]I am clear Nat is clear Hiii is clear Inu is clear Berry is clear[/quote] Obviously I was totally wrong about Nat and Art. Nat is now hard-cleared as town imo. Art could still technically be a mafia role-copier, I guess, but her immediate sharing of Hiii’s ability today reads as extremely town to me, so I’m considering her soft-cleared. In my defense, Nat did try to kill me N1, and I think it was fair to be suspicious of that. Hiii claiming scribe unchallenged is another practically confirmed townie. [/quote] hi berry i hate how i keep butting heads with you, (and maybe i'm biased because this is clearing too many people when i [i]know[/i] there's likely to be two mafia members left) but: [LIST] [*] i do not think art is clear. at all. maybe it's because i am paranoid and it's totally something i'd do as mafia, but hiii probably was going to claim watcher/tracker later when pressured, so revealing hiii's role to soft-clear them would both put art on hiii's good side, [i]and[/i] earn townie points. added with how art didn't really seem to consider shooting potato (who was mafia) at all last night, hmmmm. [*] there might not be a watcher / tracker ability in this game [i]at all[/i], since this is a closed setup game. hiii being uncounterclaimed doesn't necessarily clear them. also: since we still haven't figured out how the alignment conversion could have happened and it might have happened without a visit (if i recall correctly), having a watcher role, despite being a usually-town role, does not mean hiii could not have been converted into mafia. [/LIST] [/quote] i think that while it's alright to be wary towards me, it's just a bit weird to me how you're still so suspicious to me?? like the reason i was so secretive d2 was because i was scared because my abilities could affect whether or not town wins. since i'm revealed, i want everyone to take my night results with a bit of healthy skepticism because i worry that there's a roleblocker who can mess with my results. imo maf conversion seems like a visit ability just because of how powerful it is; and i don't think tangle would nerf my investigative ability that hard. the conversion is kind of game-changing so i kind of expect it to be recorded for visits. [quote name="StormDreamer" date="2022-12-23 01:21:39" ] [quote name="@/Hiii" date="2022-12-22 15:01:37" ] so i'm seeing a lot of people interested in what my night visit yielded but i recommend focusing more on discussion because it's not actually as mindblowing as it might seem but if potato was NOT the convert,, we might have a clue as to who it actually is [/quote] hiii's stalling here is ??????, because there is literally no incentive to not reveal who your target is (because we already know that you're a tracker?). maybe i'm tunnelling a bit, but it seems like you're stalling to think about what result to claim :v edit: hiii later revealed to have watched over dandelion, and that noone visited dandelion, but i still don't see why stalling the reveal would make sense. @hiii can you explain what you meant by "but if potato was NOT the convert,, we might have a clue as to who it actually is" ;o [/quote] i think we're spending a lot of time tunneling on me rather than focusing on discussion like i said. if you look at my earlier posts from d3, i said before that tangle worded my night visit weirdly (x did not visit anyone) because that's not what my ability does, i'm supposed to be able to see who visits someone, not the other way around. i didn't want to add any confusion to the mix so i abstained until tangle clarified that it was a wording mistake. and imo why would i stall when i could just,,, not post? from a maf perspective, i could just claim being busy and not say anything until i came up with a target and result. it's not a good move for mafia and i wanted to clarify to town since it looked like a lot of people were waiting for me to reveal what wasn't very exciting news. for the second paragraph,, my tinfoil hat theory was that dandelion got converted which is why nobody visited them. maf would almost certainly go after a healer, so i figured dandelion would be a prime candidate due to their talkativeness + ability, and i was hoping to catch mafia in the act. i did not; and was really confused as to why no mafia visited. they went after lyre,, which makes less sense. personally, it didn't seem like mafia would benefit as much from lyre's death as opposed to dandelion, but this theory kind of goes down the drain if maf conversion is considered a visit. and yeah i know that i mentioned earlier that i thought conversion would be a visit but this is kind of the only explanation i can think of rn

Omg, I have to say this right now, even though it is fluff: @BerryBagel, that Meme had me coughlaughing so hard, that was amazing!

Hmm, so with everything read right now my most sus (as in I am debating who to vote for today) is on
Ainsell
Dandelionfires
StormDreamer

Ainsell unfortunately I really came to believe was converted N1. Lines up with the visits as well.
Dandelionfire I feel actually could have been Maf all along and is just playing a really clean and nice game of blending in and appearing helpful, although they are subtly manipulating to not be
StormDreamer is not as sus to me compared to the other 2, but it is very notable still how much they are flying under the radar and I don't quite know what to think of the hints about their ability mechanic right now.

For the others:
BerryBagel- is Town

ArtMajor- was open about killing swimmergirl and even though I feel they often jump to "ithis is very solid evidence" conclusion, even when I don't share that sentiment and that has me a lil sus of them still (in regards of maybe one ability of theirs might have caused them to convert to Maf.), I think others are just way more suspicious at this moment.

Hiii- claims to having revealed the visits of N1, which so far goes without a counter, and generally being a Scribe, which would fit with the massexposure fine.
Could be converted of course, but unlikely as they weren't visited N1 (And unlike Art their abilities don't suggest a vistless conversion)

natsinabucket- I was very torn between if they are really genuine or really Maf, hence why i checked them, the result is Town, which yes, doesn't really clear them as it could have been mingled with.
But they did claim to kill Chaotic N2, which would be in line with the Abilities they claimed before. Of course, my first reaction to that was: "hm, also could be a great cover up, if Chaotic had a passive ability, that makes them not die outright the first time, but they will die a later point, and if natsina is on the Mafteam they know that and could easily claim it. Could be, this is not just to be dismissed.

[quote name="StormDreamer" date="2022-12-23 01:02:50" ] [quote name="@ArtMajor" date="2022-12-22 08:40:34" ] So just, for honesty's sake, I took my shot from Nat and used it to kill Swimmer because a lot of how n2 ended was really weird to me, and I was also afraid Ainsell was going to be protected by maf team tonight, and I didn't want to self-destruct, yknow? On the plus side...Swimmer at least wasn't town? [/quote] art killing swimmer sort of. makes sense? but curious that art never considered using their shot on potato in their post here. art wouldn't have known that nat was going to shoot potato! considering how potato and swimmer flipped, i'm hesitant to read art's swimmer vigkill as town. still, art going after hiii to copy their ability makes sense from a town perspective (seeing as hiii could've been one of the hidden berry killers from n1). though, hiii is also one of the only members that have not roleclaimed yet, so mafia!art trying to figure out hiii's abilities also makes sense. so hm! [/quote] Oh I thought I had talked about it, but apparently it never left my priv-chat ramblings. I was honestly afraid to go near Chaotic, because I assumed mafia might have somebody protecting Chaotic, due to how she was behaving last night, pretty much enticing people to come in and kill her, and I was afraid of getting caught up in a trap. I did have no way to know nat was going to shoot Chaotic, I could just only hope that *something* would happen, and if it hadn't then honestly I don't know what I would have done after that. It's the same reason I chose Hiii to copy off of, there was a little bit of wariness around them, and I felt like it was pretty safe for me to visit them (I didn't think they would be trapped) [quote name="InuKimi" date="2022-12-23 04:38:12" ] ArtMajor- was open about killing swimmergirl and even though I feel they often jump to "ithis is very solid evidence" conclusion, even when I don't share that sentiment and that has me a lil sus of them still (in regards of maybe one ability of theirs might have caused them to convert to Maf.), I think others are just way more suspicious at this moment. [/quote] That's fair, and the only defense I really have against that, is that my brain will get working on an "alright lets figure this out" and then get stuck on something specific, so then I either forget to think about other possibilities, or I'm just like "ah yes, this is true/false/whatever" And I do promise, I only have the one copying ability, and then whatever ability I have copied. My passive is literally just a "Hey, don't say this word / things in line with this word, or you lose your copied power", as I hinted at during d2, when I mentioned that I was avoiding saying certain things in order to not lose the kill I'd picked up from Nat.

@Hiii ah, my bad--i was blind and didn't see the part where you claimed the illuminate / visit list reveal ;o

i agree that i would also expect an alignment conversion to be a trackable action! however, all of the visits seem to have been explained (if i recall correctly), which doesn't exactly make sense if the alignment conversion was trackable. though, now that potato flipped mafia, i am also wondering if potato's secondary visit to ainsell was a conversion like some people mentioned ;o

i agree that i was probably tunnelling on you a bit too much, my bad. a lot of people are being "cleared" and it doesn't sit entirely well with me, especially since the three remaining "uncleared" people as a result are me, ainsell, and dandelion. i know i'm not mafia, and dandelion's a bit of a gut town read to me, partly because i understand their reasoning with things most of the time, so i can't help but think that not all of the "cleared" townies are actually clear.

@ArtMajor hmmm. that makes sense, i suppose ;o still slightly squint because it could have been reasoning you came up with on the spot, but less so, because it does make sense.

Okay there's a lot going on here, I'm going to attempt to respond to one thing at a time. Starting with @Hiii [quote="Hiii"] for the second paragraph,, my tinfoil hat theory was that dandelion got converted which is why nobody visited them. [b]maf would almost certainly go after a healer, so i figured dandelion would be a prime candidate due to their talkativeness + ability, and i was hoping to catch mafia in the act. i did not; and was really confused as to why no mafia visited. they went after lyre,, which makes less sense. personally, it didn't seem like mafia would benefit as much from lyre's death as opposed to dandelion,[/b] but [i]this theory kind of goes down the drain if maf conversion is considered a visit. and yeah i know that i mentioned earlier that i thought conversion would be a visit but this is kind of the only explanation i can think of rn [/i] [/quote] [u]Bolded part:[/u] This is exactly why I was so sure I was going to die last night. Me going on about it in the thread was an attempt to wifom the mafia into either avoiding me, because they didn't know if I could self-protect and I might have been trying to get them to waste a kill attempt on me, or to get them to waste a redirection on me in an attempt to save Potato. (That's why I didn't heal anyone last night, I didn't want there to be even a small chance that I would get redirected and Potato would survive the night.) As for mafia going for Lyre instead of me, it could be a combination of them thinking I was self-protecting and possibly a misreading of how I explained my ability? I mentioned on D2 that there is one person each night, chosen by RNG, that I can't save, and on N1 it was Lyre. Maybe maf misinterpreted what I was saying and thought I couldn't protect Lyre on N2? I don't actually think this is very likely, though. Also, if Berry is a town roleblocker, mafia probably would have thought there was a good chance of Berry roleblocking Potato. If Potato was indeed the one who poisoned Lyre, why take out the poison healer if you're not even sure that the poisoning would go through and there are plenty of other powerful town players to target? I don't know if I have a conclusion here other than I am also puzzled by the Lyre kill. If Hiii's information is correct and no one visited me, I think it's likely that mafia doesn't have a redirecter at this point in the game because neither me nor the kill shots were redirected. We can't assume that, but it is evidence. [u]Italicized part:[/u] I don't really understand what you're saying here? No one was converted last night (I'm assuming it would have been announced again.) Whoever was converted, it happened on the previous night. Are you saying you thought mafia could do more than one conversion in this game? That seems pretty op to me. [quote="Hiii"] i think that while it's alright to be wary towards me, it's just a bit weird to me how you're still so suspicious to me?? like the reason i was so secretive d2 was because i was scared because my abilities could affect whether or not town wins. since i'm revealed, i want everyone to take my night results with a bit of healthy skepticism because i worry that there's a roleblocker who can mess with my results. imo maf conversion seems like a visit ability just because of how powerful it is; and i don't think tangle would nerf my investigative ability that hard. the conversion is kind of game-changing so i kind of expect it to be recorded for visits. [/quote] This is a fair point, but we might want to keep in mind that according to Inu Tangle did say they don't like their investigative roles to be too powerful and it's possible that mafia had some way to hide a visit from being revealed. I mentioned this somewhere earlier, but I did ask Tangle if mafia kills would show up as visits and they said yes. So either mafia had a way to hide a visit or there was no night kill. I do want to point out that we still don't know for 100% certain that mafia was even the ones to convert someone, it could have been a 3p that took on the alignment of another player, possibly in a way that didn't show as a visit. Just so we're not tunneling on a single possibility.

Okay sorry this kind of turned into a whole long thing and covers a few things said by a few people so I'm just gonna post this first and go back to responding to specific posts when I get a chance.

I find it odd how a few of you are either keeping me on your sus lists without really explaining how or why you think I could be maf (Inu and Berry), or saying that you think I'm town based on "gut feeling" (Storm.) I certainly don't expect anyone to write my defense for me, but it just feels like you all are ignoring a lot of evidence just for the sake of keeping another person in the mix of potential mafia, perhaps to distract from the real maf team. Or, semi-clearing me based on "gut feeling" because you are maf and you know I'm town but you want the option to go back and vote me if others end up swinging that way.

It could be that you are just being overly cautious and waiting for my defense, so here it is.

If I were mafia, there are two possibilities: either I was scum all along or I was converted to scum at the start of Day 2.

If I were scum all along, that would mean I faked a doctor roleclaim on day 1 and no one has come forward to counterclaim me this whole time. At this point the only unaccounted-for town role is Shimmer, who died night 1. So if you think I was faking a doctor roleclaim, that means one of two things:

1. There is no town doctor in this game (which would be highly unlikely in a game with so many killing mechanics, including two lighting kills, vig, poisoning, and the normal mafia night kill. I mean, it would be unlikely in any game where all players have abilities) and I decided to fakeclaim doctor without any way of knowing this. Does that really make sense to you?
2. OR Shimmer was the doctor and missed my roleclaim due to being inactive/busy, and never got the chance to counterclaim me before dying. I guess you could think this based on Shimmer's last post being before my roleclaim, but this would count on mafia either being extremely lucky in guessing that the one super inactive person was the real doctor or extremely lucky in guessing who the doctor was on night one. Is this technically possible? I guess, but again, it seems highly unlikely.

If you still think one of these possibilities is true, what would I have been doing visiting Ainsell on night one? Either I was actually protecting our most town player (at the time) or I was converting Ainsell to scum. If you really think I was the one to convert Ainsell, then let's elim Ainsell. Even if you think I'm bussing a mafia teammate, that would still mean that we're eliming scum, so I don't see a problem. I do think we're dealing with either an Inu/Berry scumteam or a Ainsell/Storm scumteam (more on this later in this already way too long post), so as it stands right now I am fine with an Ainsell elim.

The second possibility is that I started out as the town doctor and was converted to scum. There are a few things I would like to point out:

1. I was poisoned and set to die at the end of the 2nd day. I said this in my last post before end of night one, so it's not something I could have made up after being converted. Me and Art being healed of poison was somehow tied to Wolf's death, and if we are trusting that Nat is town (highly likely given that they claimed both the Wolf kill and the Potato kill and no one has counterclaimed vig) that means I had no way of knowing that I would be healed. If I were maf, why would I be actively contributing to the thread when I was about to die and be revealed as scum? I would strongly suggest anyone who is doubtful about this to go back to the start of day two and reread what I said and make up your own mind about this.
2. As I said already, I didn't save Potato. I wasn't roleblocked by Berry. It would have been enormously beneficial to scum to keep Potato alive. Like, I honestly find it a bit sus that no one is even considering this point, even if you think I'm lying.

This is super long already, so I'm going to make a separate post about a Inu/Berry team vs a Ainsell/Storm team.

[quote name="StormDreamer" date="2022-12-23 01:21:39" ] but also this is hmmmmm and i don't like how nat automatically dismisses what tangle's post is implying (that shimmer being berry's bodyguard doesn't add up). maybe because i can't think of any other, non-bodyguard role that would let shimmer jump in front of Berry. [i]????????[/i] [/quote] To be honest I do not know what 'take a shot for someone' roles do and do not exist in this game. I just don't know how useful it is to call Shimmer's death into question when Tangle gave the extra clarification that what was said only applied to one specific role- and we have no idea what Shimmer's role was. [quote name="InuKimi" date="2022-12-23 01:35:48" ] I was checking up on [b]natsinab[/b] and the result came back as [i]Town[/i], though obviously that doesn't have to say anything, because it could have been tampered with. [/quote] I'm not sure why a maf tampering ability would be used on your rolechecking instead of one of the two killshots going on last night. Especially since mine hit one of them (maybe not a very useful one of them, but with hopefully dwindling numbers they need all they can keep). Is there a role designed to interfere with detectives specifically? /gen And if there is, we would need to wonder if Hiii's result was tampered with as well. Also, since both StormDreamer and Inu have raised some remaining doubts about my roleclaim... I don't blame you guys. I got really weird and panicky (Tangle was a victim of the screaming in my notes channel, RIP) that I would be voted out or killed. I got it in my head that if I roleclaimed the mafia would take me out or just redirect my shot, but that if I didn't roleclaim there was no way I could dodge a vote of me on this Day and town would lose another member. So yeah. I acted pretty frantic. My post replying to Berry especially was a symptom of this (though, brownie points to me for not doing as predicted and killing Ainsell /j). But. I will say that I am now pretty useless to whatever side I am on (town). I've used all of my abilities. So that is one killing element taken out of the game, which should be a comfort. My focus is entirely on investigation now. I think it is very good vindicating evidence that: 1. No one has counterclaimed me- and from what I've learned vig is an important enough role that I would probably be counterclaimed if I falsely claimed it out from under someone 2. No one has counterclaimed the Potato kill, and when there are probably 2 or 3 mafia left at most (I hope, hrglkehj) I think it would be a spectacularly bad move for them to intentionally sacrifice her. I shot a maf last night. Barring some very silly 5d chess, I think that is a town thing to do. 3. I've now come up as town for Inu Anyway! I kind of took yesterday off because frankly I was completely burnt out after having to roleclaim and all of that. But today I am going to come back more completely. I was still following the discussion yesterday. My reads are total chaos right now, but when I'm a little more awake I will try to rally them into a proper list.

@dandelionfires i might have phrased it badly ;;w;; prior to today's reveals, you were one of the people i was leaning town more strongly on (not just based on "vibes". i think i just couldn't recall why specifically when i wrote that post.) my point is, i am skeptical at so many people being cleared, as some people on the cleared list were way lower on my town list. if all the people on the "cleared" list are in fact cleared, the remaining mafia (there should be 2 left, based on my understanding of mafia game ratios.) would be you and ainsell.

i do think ainsell is a likely mafia convert target, considering that potato has an unexplained visit to ainsell d1, and i would be comfortable with an ainsell elim today. you might very well be the other mafia member! i just can't help but question if we were maybe a bit rash in assuming everyone but me, you, and ainsell as confirmed townies, because i suspect that mafia would have been up to some roleclaming shenanigans. because that's definetely what i would have done as mafia.

(slightly paranoid, but especially squinting at art. from my perspective, the mafia team essentially lost during traitor's keep because they didn't role/fakeclaim early enough, and everyone else at the end of the game was essentially confirmed townies due to their uncontested roleclaims. if art is mafia again this game, i wouldn't be surprised if art would want to "confirm" themselves as town early during the game. but then again, i am probably, once again, tunnelling, because i am not entirely happy that everyone but us three are "confirmed town" and i can't help but be wary that mafia is pulling some shenanigans.)

@StormDreamer Sorry I said I was about to write a whole post about my scumteam theories but then some stuff came up and I don't have time right now, but just pointing out that Inu and Berry are on other's "cleared" lists but are not cleared for me. I think it's either Inu/Berry or Ainsell/Storm, if there are two mafia. If Silver was mafia and not 3p, I think it's either Ainsell or Inu who was converted to mafia and they are the last mafia with Storm (you) as possibly another 3p. (Not likely since I do think Silver was a poisoning 3p.)

The Potato visit to Ainsell was explained by both of them as a delayed roleblock, so Ainsell is town if that story is true but converted scum if it's a cover story.

I have been reading Art as town based on how they were acting when they were poisoned and were going to die at end of day 2, but I will take my own advice and go back and reread all that stuff once I'm free.

I think I explained my Inu/Berry scumteam theory last night somewhere, but I will come back and make a full post about this once I'm free I promise!

And a quick look at our numbers: there are 8 living players left, so in the worst cast scenario if we do mis-elim a town player today and there is a successful mafia kill at night + Inu dies of poisoning (assuming Inu is town), we would be left with 5 players and probably 2 mafia at the start of day 4. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think that would put us in MeLo on day 4? This is worst case, but I just want it to be on our radar.