[quote name="Pippatis" date="2022-12-15 06:06:15" ]
I don't usually comment on subjects like this, but...
I truly think this is a non-issue. Referencing something that happened in life is nothing like encouraging it. It seems like a worse idea to try and censor it, change the lore, act like it didn't happen, because when people start to forget, it paves the way for it happen again.
[/quote]
Hello @Pippatis. It is not censorship when we are the ones making the change ourselves to our own story on our own website. Please [b][url=https://www1.flightrising.com/forums/ann/3193191/38#post_52948297]read Undel's reply[/url][/b], as she covers the issue of conflict and why we made this change. Thank you.
[quote name="Undel" date="2022-12-14 14:15:01" ]
[quote name="FleetingFancy" date="2022-12-14 13:45:06" ]
There is a difference between fiction that mirrors reality in an actually harmful way (like glorifying abuse, normalizing toxic relationships, just to name a few smaller ones), and fiction that mirrors real life for a point. Both can still hurt you, but one should not, in my opinion, be changed.
If we cannot have dark themes in our stories in case it hurts someone because it mirrors real life, how will any stories ever be told? There's a line to be drawn, yes - again, some media do take bad/toxic/horrible situations and portray them terribly - but by retconning the story here entirely, it feels like the message being told is that fiction CAN NEVER mirror real life, because if it hurts then it HAS to be bad.
[/quote]
We did not feel that the genocide, cultural erasure (in the original harpy articles the war was causing them to lose their culture), and loss of territory to an overwhelming force were something we wanted in a game when the creatures this was happening to looked so much like humans. This does not mean that harpies and dragons are always buddies. Though the harpies have a close alliance with the majority of wind clans, other flights treat them with a more cautious approach and may have their own alliances with different Beastclans. And those big shapes harassing even the harpies in the Windswept Plateau? Those aren't ancients.
[b]In other words, we simply chose what we did and did not want in our game, and we decided that the colonialism parallels were something we did not want to have in our story.[/b] And we especially did not like the fact our unresolved story placed our players in the parallel position of destructive aggressors.
There is still conflict and dark themes in the world of Sornieth. The dragon flights remain antagonistic towards one another. Dragons follow primal elemental forces as their guiding principles. There's a worker's revolution in Fire, a catastrophic proliferation of magic vs technology in Arcane and Lightning, a wartime standstill between Plague and Nature, things from deep in the stone being dug up in Earth, otherworldly threats forever jailed except maybe...not?, missing prophetic deities, an energy-sucking otherworldly force infesting Sornieth, and an overwhelming surge of elemental energy to name a few. Plus the fact that dragons—like people—aren't always going to get along with each other.
[/quote]
Pippatis wrote on 2022-12-15 06:06:15:
I don't usually comment on subjects like this, but...
I truly think this is a non-issue. Referencing something that happened in life is nothing like encouraging it. It seems like a worse idea to try and censor it, change the lore, act like it didn't happen, because when people start to forget, it paves the way for it happen again.
Hello @
Pippatis. It is not censorship when we are the ones making the change ourselves to our own story on our own website. Please
read Undel's reply, as she covers the issue of conflict and why we made this change. Thank you.
Undel wrote on 2022-12-14 14:15:01:
FleetingFancy wrote on 2022-12-14 13:45:06:
There is a difference between fiction that mirrors reality in an actually harmful way (like glorifying abuse, normalizing toxic relationships, just to name a few smaller ones), and fiction that mirrors real life for a point. Both can still hurt you, but one should not, in my opinion, be changed.
If we cannot have dark themes in our stories in case it hurts someone because it mirrors real life, how will any stories ever be told? There's a line to be drawn, yes - again, some media do take bad/toxic/horrible situations and portray them terribly - but by retconning the story here entirely, it feels like the message being told is that fiction CAN NEVER mirror real life, because if it hurts then it HAS to be bad.
We did not feel that the genocide, cultural erasure (in the original harpy articles the war was causing them to lose their culture), and loss of territory to an overwhelming force were something we wanted in a game when the creatures this was happening to looked so much like humans. This does not mean that harpies and dragons are always buddies. Though the harpies have a close alliance with the majority of wind clans, other flights treat them with a more cautious approach and may have their own alliances with different Beastclans. And those big shapes harassing even the harpies in the Windswept Plateau? Those aren't ancients.
In other words, we simply chose what we did and did not want in our game, and we decided that the colonialism parallels were something we did not want to have in our story. And we especially did not like the fact our unresolved story placed our players in the parallel position of destructive aggressors.
There is still conflict and dark themes in the world of Sornieth. The dragon flights remain antagonistic towards one another. Dragons follow primal elemental forces as their guiding principles. There's a worker's revolution in Fire, a catastrophic proliferation of magic vs technology in Arcane and Lightning, a wartime standstill between Plague and Nature, things from deep in the stone being dug up in Earth, otherworldly threats forever jailed except maybe...not?, missing prophetic deities, an energy-sucking otherworldly force infesting Sornieth, and an overwhelming surge of elemental energy to name a few. Plus the fact that dragons—like people—aren't always going to get along with each other.
I approve of this and honestly wasn't a big fan of the storyline in general. Regardless of unfortunate implications. While the idea of warfare against dragons by species otherwise disadvantaged but highly intelligent is itself an interesting idea, I found it a little unrealistic to believe that a relatively human-sized species' small civilizations were expected to be regarded as a threatening enemy, as it's well, rather impossible to imagine being able to defeat so many gargantuan opponents in all-out war.
Personally I always thought the battles in the coliseum to be sometimes hunting, like with small animals/plants or monsters such as ghosts/eldritch, but with beastclans or the like it was more like a skirmish where they're taking loot as a prize in thanks of letting them go without further battle. I imagine in a world populated with mostly dragons and even human-like creatures having animal qualities, the idea of maintaining territory with petty skirmishes or even casual thievery is just more the way of things. It's probably different area-to-area, and I think places like coliseum venues would be well-known for being free-for-alls.
I also thought Dominance was more a measure of how well that flight was faring against the Shade in a soft of eternal conflict scenario. However, it could also be seen as an economic. military, or elemental power dominance. In either case, it's less like a war between factions and more like a race to the top.
I approve of this and honestly wasn't a big fan of the storyline in general. Regardless of unfortunate implications. While the idea of warfare against dragons by species otherwise disadvantaged but highly intelligent is itself an interesting idea, I found it a little unrealistic to believe that a relatively human-sized species' small civilizations were expected to be regarded as a threatening enemy, as it's well, rather impossible to imagine being able to defeat so many gargantuan opponents in all-out war.
Personally I always thought the battles in the coliseum to be sometimes hunting, like with small animals/plants or monsters such as ghosts/eldritch, but with beastclans or the like it was more like a skirmish where they're taking loot as a prize in thanks of letting them go without further battle. I imagine in a world populated with mostly dragons and even human-like creatures having animal qualities, the idea of maintaining territory with petty skirmishes or even casual thievery is just more the way of things. It's probably different area-to-area, and I think places like coliseum venues would be well-known for being free-for-alls.
I also thought Dominance was more a measure of how well that flight was faring against the Shade in a soft of eternal conflict scenario. However, it could also be seen as an economic. military, or elemental power dominance. In either case, it's less like a war between factions and more like a race to the top.
The way I play the game relies very very little on canon lore (i am pretending it does not exist unless i like it), but I think this change was handled very nicely, a retcon was the best option imo, and I’m happy that there is a more neutral starting position for us to build personal lore from! It’s possible to be allied but if someone really just wants to be at war with beastclans they can still totally do that, and neither is far from official lore. (and personally i’m super happy with the alliance with wind clans storyline, that is so so nice, feels like a personal little present :3)
Also, I’m happy to see that the tooltips&such are getting updated as well to be consistent.
And I think it’s completely okay to differentiate between lore and game mechanics in some cases (Baldwin, marketplace, Coliseum even - as a place to get items&exalt bonuses by leveling).
And also - enormous winged shapes in the night enormous winged shapes in the night enormous winged shapes in the night enormous winged shapes in the night :3
Edit, forgot to say: thank you staff for all the work and explaining you did on this thread, answering all kinds of clarification questions!
The way I play the game relies very very little on canon lore (i am pretending it does not exist unless i like it), but I think this change was handled very nicely, a retcon was the best option imo, and I’m happy that there is a more neutral starting position for us to build personal lore from! It’s possible to be allied but if someone really just wants to be at war with beastclans they can still totally do that, and neither is far from official lore. (and personally i’m super happy with the alliance with wind clans storyline, that is so so nice, feels like a personal little present :3)
Also, I’m happy to see that the tooltips&such are getting updated as well to be consistent.
And I think it’s completely okay to differentiate between lore and game mechanics in some cases (Baldwin, marketplace, Coliseum even - as a place to get items&exalt bonuses by leveling).
And also - enormous winged shapes in the night enormous winged shapes in the night enormous winged shapes in the night enormous winged shapes in the night :3
Edit, forgot to say: thank you staff for all the work and explaining you did on this thread, answering all kinds of clarification questions!
Please don't sanitize the coliseum lol...
Please don't sanitize the coliseum lol...
|
|
|
Hi! I'm Sloan
'91, ??, FR+2
Tritype 459
|
[quote name="@Lednik" date="2022-12-14 13:42:58" ]
In the old site lore, dragons were created specifically to gain territory for their god at whatever cost. They weren't born anywhere technically speaking, they just appeared as a sudden force that came in and, bluntly, massacred large amounts of beastclan in order to settle on the continent. Often this caused massive damage to the beastclan. Off the top of my head, maren were pushed out of their natural water areas into places like the ocean where all but a few immediately died because they're freshwater and couldn't adapt to the extreme change in environment. That's pretty rough even without real world influences at play, to hand to players as something their dragons did at some point.
[/quote]
First, as you say. They were created, by deities, for a purpose. What purpose they were created for can hardly be blamed on them. This makes the Eleven the bad guys, not the dragons.
Second, so far as I know, this all happened long before Talona and dragons canonically do age. The members of that first wave could not have been our dragons even if we wanted them to be - if, of course, we want our lore to be canon compliant. None of this tells us anything about the direct members of our clans.
But either way. I guess I just have joined this site for a different reason than many. Back when I did, maybe petsites were more common - if I wanted a sugarcoated escapism place where nothing bad ever happened, I'd have gone to a site about ponies, not [i]dragons[/i]. At that point, the lore of the site did reflect that probably most of the users saw it that way. Now, apparently, that changed... well, I'll deal. That's fine. Nobody forces me to follow canon lore... and if things get less than ideal I can always take mine off-site. p:
@
Lednik wrote on 2022-12-14 13:42:58:
In the old site lore, dragons were created specifically to gain territory for their god at whatever cost. They weren't born anywhere technically speaking, they just appeared as a sudden force that came in and, bluntly, massacred large amounts of beastclan in order to settle on the continent. Often this caused massive damage to the beastclan. Off the top of my head, maren were pushed out of their natural water areas into places like the ocean where all but a few immediately died because they're freshwater and couldn't adapt to the extreme change in environment. That's pretty rough even without real world influences at play, to hand to players as something their dragons did at some point.
First, as you say. They were created, by deities, for a purpose. What purpose they were created for can hardly be blamed on them. This makes the Eleven the bad guys, not the dragons.
Second, so far as I know, this all happened long before Talona and dragons canonically do age. The members of that first wave could not have been our dragons even if we wanted them to be - if, of course, we want our lore to be canon compliant. None of this tells us anything about the direct members of our clans.
But either way. I guess I just have joined this site for a different reason than many. Back when I did, maybe petsites were more common - if I wanted a sugarcoated escapism place where nothing bad ever happened, I'd have gone to a site about ponies, not
dragons. At that point, the lore of the site did reflect that probably most of the users saw it that way. Now, apparently, that changed... well, I'll deal. That's fine. Nobody forces me to follow canon lore... and if things get less than ideal I can always take mine off-site. p:
[quote name="Subdued" date="2022-12-15 06:12:19" ]
Please don't sanitize the coliseum lol...
[/quote]
The Coliseum is dragons cleansing Shade taint. That's why the enemies have always been flora, fauna, bugs, arachnids, enchanted objects, etc. Not just Beastclans. @Subdued
Subdued wrote on 2022-12-15 06:12:19:
Please don't sanitize the coliseum lol...
The Coliseum is dragons cleansing Shade taint. That's why the enemies have always been flora, fauna, bugs, arachnids, enchanted objects, etc. Not just Beastclans. @
Subdued
[quote name="Morigan" date="2022-12-15 06:13:52" ]
But either way. I guess I just have joined this site for a different reason than many. Back when I did, maybe petsites were more common - if I wanted a sugarcoated escapism place where nothing bad ever happened, I'd have gone to a site about ponies, not [i]dragons[/i]. At that point, the lore of the site did reflect that probably most of the users saw it that way. Now, apparently, that changed... well, I'll deal. That's fine. Nobody forces me to follow canon lore... and if things get less than ideal I can always take mine off-site. p:
[/quote]
Hello @Morigan, please [b][url=https://www1.flightrising.com/forums/ann/3193191/38#post_52948297]read Undel's reply[/url][/b] here. She addresses the issue of conflict and dark storylines. Thank you.
[quote name="Undel" date="2022-12-14 14:15:01" ]
[quote name="FleetingFancy" date="2022-12-14 13:45:06" ]
There is a difference between fiction that mirrors reality in an actually harmful way (like glorifying abuse, normalizing toxic relationships, just to name a few smaller ones), and fiction that mirrors real life for a point. Both can still hurt you, but one should not, in my opinion, be changed.
If we cannot have dark themes in our stories in case it hurts someone because it mirrors real life, how will any stories ever be told? There's a line to be drawn, yes - again, some media do take bad/toxic/horrible situations and portray them terribly - but by retconning the story here entirely, it feels like the message being told is that fiction CAN NEVER mirror real life, because if it hurts then it HAS to be bad.
[/quote]
We did not feel that the genocide, cultural erasure (in the original harpy articles the war was causing them to lose their culture), and loss of territory to an overwhelming force were something we wanted in a game when the creatures this was happening to looked so much like humans. This does not mean that harpies and dragons are always buddies. Though the harpies have a close alliance with the majority of wind clans, other flights treat them with a more cautious approach and may have their own alliances with different Beastclans. And those big shapes harassing even the harpies in the Windswept Plateau? Those aren't ancients.
[b]In other words, we simply chose what we did and did not want in our game, and we decided that the colonialism parallels were something we did not want to have in our story.[/b] And we especially did not like the fact our unresolved story placed our players in the parallel position of destructive aggressors.
There is still conflict and dark themes in the world of Sornieth. The dragon flights remain antagonistic towards one another. Dragons follow primal elemental forces as their guiding principles. There's a worker's revolution in Fire, a catastrophic proliferation of magic vs technology in Arcane and Lightning, a wartime standstill between Plague and Nature, things from deep in the stone being dug up in Earth, otherworldly threats forever jailed except maybe...not?, missing prophetic deities, an energy-sucking otherworldly force infesting Sornieth, and an overwhelming surge of elemental energy to name a few. Plus the fact that dragons—like people—aren't always going to get along with each other.
[/quote]
Morigan wrote on 2022-12-15 06:13:52:
But either way. I guess I just have joined this site for a different reason than many. Back when I did, maybe petsites were more common - if I wanted a sugarcoated escapism place where nothing bad ever happened, I'd have gone to a site about ponies, not dragons. At that point, the lore of the site did reflect that probably most of the users saw it that way. Now, apparently, that changed... well, I'll deal. That's fine. Nobody forces me to follow canon lore... and if things get less than ideal I can always take mine off-site. p:
Hello @
Morigan, please
read Undel's reply here. She addresses the issue of conflict and dark storylines. Thank you.
Undel wrote on 2022-12-14 14:15:01:
FleetingFancy wrote on 2022-12-14 13:45:06:
There is a difference between fiction that mirrors reality in an actually harmful way (like glorifying abuse, normalizing toxic relationships, just to name a few smaller ones), and fiction that mirrors real life for a point. Both can still hurt you, but one should not, in my opinion, be changed.
If we cannot have dark themes in our stories in case it hurts someone because it mirrors real life, how will any stories ever be told? There's a line to be drawn, yes - again, some media do take bad/toxic/horrible situations and portray them terribly - but by retconning the story here entirely, it feels like the message being told is that fiction CAN NEVER mirror real life, because if it hurts then it HAS to be bad.
We did not feel that the genocide, cultural erasure (in the original harpy articles the war was causing them to lose their culture), and loss of territory to an overwhelming force were something we wanted in a game when the creatures this was happening to looked so much like humans. This does not mean that harpies and dragons are always buddies. Though the harpies have a close alliance with the majority of wind clans, other flights treat them with a more cautious approach and may have their own alliances with different Beastclans. And those big shapes harassing even the harpies in the Windswept Plateau? Those aren't ancients.
In other words, we simply chose what we did and did not want in our game, and we decided that the colonialism parallels were something we did not want to have in our story. And we especially did not like the fact our unresolved story placed our players in the parallel position of destructive aggressors.
There is still conflict and dark themes in the world of Sornieth. The dragon flights remain antagonistic towards one another. Dragons follow primal elemental forces as their guiding principles. There's a worker's revolution in Fire, a catastrophic proliferation of magic vs technology in Arcane and Lightning, a wartime standstill between Plague and Nature, things from deep in the stone being dug up in Earth, otherworldly threats forever jailed except maybe...not?, missing prophetic deities, an energy-sucking otherworldly force infesting Sornieth, and an overwhelming surge of elemental energy to name a few. Plus the fact that dragons—like people—aren't always going to get along with each other.
Honestly, as an older player who is sick of RL being a jerk, this ret con is not only appreciated but reflects so positively on the devs. I’m so happy you guys chose to take accountability for this and have created something that, in my mind, is so much more worthwhile and amazing!!! I’m so insanely happy for this choice, and the new familiars have such BEAUTIFUL designs! I’m so excited for the possibility of beastclan shopkeepers!!!!
Thank you devs for this <333 I’m so happy with these changes ;3;
Honestly, as an older player who is sick of RL being a jerk, this ret con is not only appreciated but reflects so positively on the devs. I’m so happy you guys chose to take accountability for this and have created something that, in my mind, is so much more worthwhile and amazing!!! I’m so insanely happy for this choice, and the new familiars have such BEAUTIFUL designs! I’m so excited for the possibility of beastclan shopkeepers!!!!
Thank you devs for this <333 I’m so happy with these changes ;3;
This is something that has made me lowkey wince since I started playing with the whole Us vs Them stuff and I really appreciate the thought and attention that went into this. Even more so, I appreciate you not erasing it from the site for accountability reasons, and being present and moderating in the comments on behalf of the people who raised concerns and defending your choice. I imagine it's going to give you a few stressful days dealing with it, but the dedication to not just leaving it to the users to battle it out but backing up your decision reflects as more than lip service. Thank you.
Looking forward to the changes and new familiars, I think this will really open up a lot of much more interesting and complex lore and RP possibilities than the tired old unrealistic trope 'fantasy conflict is essentially just rainbow flavor racism.' People in the real world don't live neatly split into warring groups based on race with just a few boundary-crossing exceptions, most of the time it's the other way around, just trying to go about living next to each other. War just gets more attention. And war is not even close to the most interesting thing about life together, or flight rising <3
This is something that has made me lowkey wince since I started playing with the whole Us vs Them stuff and I really appreciate the thought and attention that went into this. Even more so, I appreciate you not erasing it from the site for accountability reasons, and being present and moderating in the comments on behalf of the people who raised concerns and defending your choice. I imagine it's going to give you a few stressful days dealing with it, but the dedication to not just leaving it to the users to battle it out but backing up your decision reflects as more than lip service. Thank you.
Looking forward to the changes and new familiars, I think this will really open up a lot of much more interesting and complex lore and RP possibilities than the tired old unrealistic trope 'fantasy conflict is essentially just rainbow flavor racism.' People in the real world don't live neatly split into warring groups based on race with just a few boundary-crossing exceptions, most of the time it's the other way around, just trying to go about living next to each other. War just gets more attention. And war is not even close to the most interesting thing about life together, or flight rising <3
