Maybe this goes in general chat - as this is neither a criticism of the new canon or even really a discussion of it. Thinking about the update, it's always been fairly clear that none of the staff is particularly interested in the story of Flight Rising, anyway. Visual art is first and foremost the interest here - and you can tell this by the way that they interact with users and what kind of play they reward most - assuming they do at all.
I think this is probably a good realization for me, because only sincerely not caring about a story and the way it was written (whether it's problematic or not) would draw someone to retcon a turning point like this with no effort put into telling a good story. Or, heck, even a story at all. Honestly? The story of a world at war coming to peace despite differences could have been beautiful, and it's a story I was very much hoping to see. I think it's even a story I need to see. Nothing is aspirational if it is not first able to be identified with. Even if the staff wasn't able to bring this beautiful story to reality because of a lack of skill or interest, I know the users of Flight Rising would have made wonderful things, from the perspective of both the dragons and the beastclans coming to terms with the past and looking forward to better times for everyone.
This update makes me sad. Because the solution - which is lauded by most everyone - is to not fix it at all. It's to pretend like the bad thing never happened. Well, at least, archive that the bad thing happened, remove it from the encyclopedia and the history of the world, and then live like it never did. I'm glad there are users here who find this to be a symbol of hope for humanity or somehow being seen. Feeling like that certainly isn't wrong. Sure makes it easier for the dragons, though.
So, metaphorically speaking, I have a question: are dragons allowed to pretend it never happened? Would it make the beastclans feel happy and seen? I'm asking for a dragon.
Maybe this goes in general chat - as this is neither a criticism of the new canon or even really a discussion of it. Thinking about the update, it's always been fairly clear that none of the staff is particularly interested in the story of Flight Rising, anyway. Visual art is first and foremost the interest here - and you can tell this by the way that they interact with users and what kind of play they reward most - assuming they do at all.
I think this is probably a good realization for me, because only sincerely not caring about a story and the way it was written (whether it's problematic or not) would draw someone to retcon a turning point like this with no effort put into telling a good story. Or, heck, even a story at all. Honestly? The story of a world at war coming to peace despite differences could have been beautiful, and it's a story I was very much hoping to see. I think it's even a story I need to see. Nothing is aspirational if it is not first able to be identified with. Even if the staff wasn't able to bring this beautiful story to reality because of a lack of skill or interest, I know the users of Flight Rising would have made wonderful things, from the perspective of both the dragons and the beastclans coming to terms with the past and looking forward to better times for everyone.
This update makes me sad. Because the solution - which is lauded by most everyone - is to not fix it at all. It's to pretend like the bad thing never happened. Well, at least, archive that the bad thing happened, remove it from the encyclopedia and the history of the world, and then live like it never did. I'm glad there are users here who find this to be a symbol of hope for humanity or somehow being seen. Feeling like that certainly isn't wrong. Sure makes it easier for the dragons, though.
So, metaphorically speaking, I have a question: are dragons allowed to pretend it never happened? Would it make the beastclans feel happy and seen? I'm asking for a dragon.
I think the canon lore is a starting point for every user’s personal interpretation. So what dragons are “allowed” to do only really depends on what you would prefer. If you want your dragons to live like no conflict ever happened, you can do that. If you want your clan to be at war/conflict with a beastclan you can do that. You can play without acknowledging that beastclans exist at all and still have really detailed, immersive personal lore.
However, I find the assumption that staff do not care about the story of FR kind of strange. This whole update happened because they looked at parts of the story (which was written a long time ago, and had some hurtful elements) and went “we can do better than that, actually”. If they didn’t care, they would have left it as is, or there wouldn’t be any lore to start with. Obviously they cannot make a choice that will satisfy everyone, but that’s okay, and there is a pretty clear explanation as to why they chose to change the story this way, and even if we don’t fully agree with those decisions, it is ultimately their game to develop as they think it is best.
I think the canon lore is a starting point for every user’s personal interpretation. So what dragons are “allowed” to do only really depends on what you would prefer. If you want your dragons to live like no conflict ever happened, you can do that. If you want your clan to be at war/conflict with a beastclan you can do that. You can play without acknowledging that beastclans exist at all and still have really detailed, immersive personal lore.
However, I find the assumption that staff do not care about the story of FR kind of strange. This whole update happened because they looked at parts of the story (which was written a long time ago, and had some hurtful elements) and went “we can do better than that, actually”. If they didn’t care, they would have left it as is, or there wouldn’t be any lore to start with. Obviously they cannot make a choice that will satisfy everyone, but that’s okay, and there is a pretty clear explanation as to why they chose to change the story this way, and even if we don’t fully agree with those decisions, it is ultimately their game to develop as they think it is best.
Mostly I agree with you. I'd have loved to see the war come to an end, rather than be retconned.
That said, I don't think I could've written that story well enough myself. Normally, I believe that a badly written story is better than no story at all. But that's not the case for FR, which is a game that exists beyond just its lore. A poorly written, unfulfilling or disappointing story would've shed a bad light on peoples experience on the gameplay. At least this plot thread isn't dangling loosely anymore.
I wonder what'll happen to the beastclan note items, though. It always felt as if those would be plot relevant.
Mostly I agree with you. I'd have loved to see the war come to an end, rather than be retconned.
That said, I don't think I could've written that story well enough myself. Normally, I believe that a badly written story is better than no story at all. But that's not the case for FR, which is a game that exists beyond just its lore. A poorly written, unfulfilling or disappointing story would've shed a bad light on peoples experience on the gameplay. At least this plot thread isn't dangling loosely anymore.
I wonder what'll happen to the beastclan note items, though. It always felt as if those would be plot relevant.
I do fully agree with that sentiment, I would have loved seeing the Flight Rising story actually focusing on the horrors of what had happened during the first decades of Dragonkind's existence, acknowledging why it was horrible and then moving forward to a better and brighter future.
Of course, this is still lore that the Staff ended up wanting to remove for various reasons. For one, they would have to have dropped many more lore snippets with indications that what Dragonkind had done and is still doing was and is ethically wrong. They'd require some well-versed POC writers with personal experience on POC issues to make it fully comprehensible and reliable, plus it's clear that the Staff never intended to make a connection like it. I thought it was on purpose and it was a moral dilemma but I suppose not, would have loved to see the topic flourish but this revamp might be more suitable for younger audiences?
So this isn't really erasing history, this is revamping the lore, but if we were talking about an actual real life timeline of these events, not talking about it would be erasing history. You are fully correct when it comes to this - not talking about the horrors of the past harms people who were affected by it. You need to understand history not to repeat it. But there are also times and places for it.
I do fully agree with that sentiment, I would have loved seeing the Flight Rising story actually focusing on the horrors of what had happened during the first decades of Dragonkind's existence, acknowledging why it was horrible and then moving forward to a better and brighter future.
Of course, this is still lore that the Staff ended up wanting to remove for various reasons. For one, they would have to have dropped many more lore snippets with indications that what Dragonkind had done and is still doing was and is ethically wrong. They'd require some well-versed POC writers with personal experience on POC issues to make it fully comprehensible and reliable, plus it's clear that the Staff never intended to make a connection like it. I thought it was on purpose and it was a moral dilemma but I suppose not, would have loved to see the topic flourish but this revamp might be more suitable for younger audiences?
So this isn't really erasing history, this is revamping the lore, but if we were talking about an actual real life timeline of these events, not talking about it would be erasing history. You are fully correct when it comes to this - not talking about the horrors of the past harms people who were affected by it. You need to understand history not to repeat it. But there are also times and places for it.
[quote]However, I find the assumption that staff do not care about the story of FR kind of strange. This whole update happened because they looked at parts of the story (which was written a long time ago, and had some hurtful elements) and went “we can do better than that, actually”. If they didn’t care, they would have left it as is, or there wouldn’t be any lore to start with. Obviously they cannot make a choice that will satisfy everyone, but that’s okay, and there is a pretty clear explanation as to why they chose to change the story this way, and even if we don’t fully agree with those decisions, it is ultimately their game to develop as they think it is best.[/quote]
I mean, it's practically a requirement that if you want to have a fantasy-based game with characters, you will have some kind of lore. Because, you're right, we could just have a dragon breeding game without anything - but it's fairly obvious they wanted to have [i]characters[/i]. Caring about characters is very different from caring about the story. And fairly obvious that you can care about one without caring about the other. Lots of people do. I don't know what seems strange about it. You can't look at everything they do (and don't do) with the story of FR and say, "Yeah, this is definitely a priority for them."
Their explanation isn't even all that clear to me, considering they're looking at their own lore in an extremely selective way that a straight read (say, by a space alien) wouldn't necessarily yield. And users on the announcement thread were being scolded for offering that perfectly valid interpretation.
I respectfully disagree, about this having been "done better," though, obviously. This is probably the single most depressing way to "fix" a problem that's been festering for, what, eight years?
All that to say, yeah, people have been (and will continue to) build their personal lore that way since the very beginning. It's not my question whether people can continue doing with their lore what they want. Because, yeah. We've always done that. There will be people who continue to develop their clans as if the old lore were canon, still. That's not my question.
Quote:
However, I find the assumption that staff do not care about the story of FR kind of strange. This whole update happened because they looked at parts of the story (which was written a long time ago, and had some hurtful elements) and went “we can do better than that, actually”. If they didn’t care, they would have left it as is, or there wouldn’t be any lore to start with. Obviously they cannot make a choice that will satisfy everyone, but that’s okay, and there is a pretty clear explanation as to why they chose to change the story this way, and even if we don’t fully agree with those decisions, it is ultimately their game to develop as they think it is best.
I mean, it's practically a requirement that if you want to have a fantasy-based game with characters, you will have some kind of lore. Because, you're right, we could just have a dragon breeding game without anything - but it's fairly obvious they wanted to have
characters. Caring about characters is very different from caring about the story. And fairly obvious that you can care about one without caring about the other. Lots of people do. I don't know what seems strange about it. You can't look at everything they do (and don't do) with the story of FR and say, "Yeah, this is definitely a priority for them."
Their explanation isn't even all that clear to me, considering they're looking at their own lore in an extremely selective way that a straight read (say, by a space alien) wouldn't necessarily yield. And users on the announcement thread were being scolded for offering that perfectly valid interpretation.
I respectfully disagree, about this having been "done better," though, obviously. This is probably the single most depressing way to "fix" a problem that's been festering for, what, eight years?
All that to say, yeah, people have been (and will continue to) build their personal lore that way since the very beginning. It's not my question whether people can continue doing with their lore what they want. Because, yeah. We've always done that. There will be people who continue to develop their clans as if the old lore were canon, still. That's not my question.
[quote name="Metalhead" date="2022-12-15 09:04:58" ]
That said, I don't think I could've written that story well enough myself. Normally, I believe that a badly written story is better than no story at all. But that's not the case for FR, which is a game that exists beyond just its lore. A poorly written, unfulfilling or disappointing story would've shed a bad light on peoples experience on the gameplay. At least this plot thread isn't dangling loosely anymore.
[/quote]
Yeah, as I say, I don't think the staff writers have enough, let's say, finesse to write this really well. But I do think it would have at least been passable. I don't think a staff POC writer would have been necessary (addressing another comment). After all, it's not enough that POC writers gain a significant voice in the realm of, say, novel-writing, but already-established white writers have to write diverse stories, too. They do this with sensitivity readers... so, really, that's what this would take.
I 100% agree on the dangling plot threads, considering that's just about all we have here. But nevertheless, I would like to hope that an honest effort (even if it was overall not so well done simply because of a lack of skill) to fix the problem would have been appreciated more than, I guess, sweeping it into an archive and making no effort at all. And I cannot get around to seeing that move in an honestly positive light.
Metalhead wrote on 2022-12-15 09:04:58:
That said, I don't think I could've written that story well enough myself. Normally, I believe that a badly written story is better than no story at all. But that's not the case for FR, which is a game that exists beyond just its lore. A poorly written, unfulfilling or disappointing story would've shed a bad light on peoples experience on the gameplay. At least this plot thread isn't dangling loosely anymore.
Yeah, as I say, I don't think the staff writers have enough, let's say, finesse to write this really well. But I do think it would have at least been passable. I don't think a staff POC writer would have been necessary (addressing another comment). After all, it's not enough that POC writers gain a significant voice in the realm of, say, novel-writing, but already-established white writers have to write diverse stories, too. They do this with sensitivity readers... so, really, that's what this would take.
I 100% agree on the dangling plot threads, considering that's just about all we have here. But nevertheless, I would like to hope that an honest effort (even if it was overall not so well done simply because of a lack of skill) to fix the problem would have been appreciated more than, I guess, sweeping it into an archive and making no effort at all. And I cannot get around to seeing that move in an honestly positive light.
Aequorin was far too polite and generous to post this image in the Harpy Thread proper when it came to similar arguments, but I am not.
[center][img]https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/600107383091494935/1052781733612896316/Untitled_Artwork.png[/img][/center]
Aequorin was far too polite and generous to post this image in the Harpy Thread proper when it came to similar arguments, but I am not.
I am locking this thread, as it's feedback that should be sent to us through
Contact Us. But there's something here that also needs to be addressed.
We are going in a new direction because we do care. We care about the impact our story has on our players. We care about the position our story places our players. We care about making sure conflict is created and published with care and consideration for context, nuance, and the way the world around us can influence what we create.
Beastclans on the Rise was one small introduction to a multi-part story back in 2014, and that story is heavily dependent on Adventure Mode. We kept telling ourselves that next year we'll get Adventure Mode going and we can resolve this. And then another year passed. Next year, next year we can finally address this...another year passes. Repeat until it's now 2022, the refactor is almost but not quite done, Achievements still have to go out before Adventure Mode, and we've unintentionally placed players in the role of genocidal aggressors for almost a decade.
That's not okay.
Our new direction leaves room for
conflict and dark stories. Banescale dragons nearly wiped out the Gaolers until the Gaolers retaliated in kind. But there's a significant difference between dragons vs Beastclans in the old lore and Banescale vs Gaolers. The former is a painfully unequal playing field where entire cultures were being wiped out without a second thought.
Born in Fire and Flame is a battle between
equals, with solemn recognition and grief for what was done.
We're removing parallels to colonialism from our story because we don't want them in our story. To suggest we don't care about our story because we don't want parallels to colonialist aggression in it does a disservice to us, to you, and to your fellow players.
I am locking this thread, as it's feedback that should be sent to us through
Contact Us. But there's something here that also needs to be addressed.
We are going in a new direction because we do care. We care about the impact our story has on our players. We care about the position our story places our players. We care about making sure conflict is created and published with care and consideration for context, nuance, and the way the world around us can influence what we create.
Beastclans on the Rise was one small introduction to a multi-part story back in 2014, and that story is heavily dependent on Adventure Mode. We kept telling ourselves that next year we'll get Adventure Mode going and we can resolve this. And then another year passed. Next year, next year we can finally address this...another year passes. Repeat until it's now 2022, the refactor is almost but not quite done, Achievements still have to go out before Adventure Mode, and we've unintentionally placed players in the role of genocidal aggressors for almost a decade.
That's not okay.
Our new direction leaves room for
conflict and dark stories. Banescale dragons nearly wiped out the Gaolers until the Gaolers retaliated in kind. But there's a significant difference between dragons vs Beastclans in the old lore and Banescale vs Gaolers. The former is a painfully unequal playing field where entire cultures were being wiped out without a second thought.
Born in Fire and Flame is a battle between
equals, with solemn recognition and grief for what was done.
We're removing parallels to colonialism from our story because we don't want them in our story. To suggest we don't care about our story because we don't want parallels to colonialist aggression in it does a disservice to us, to you, and to your fellow players.
