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@TheNightDancer

Well, what I mean is that the chances of hitting a town is higher in a random lynch. Since obviously there is more town than mafia. So if there is no one who seemed particularly scummy or sys that day, I think maybe no lynch would be better, so as t prevent hitting town. But only when there is really no one that is 'scummy' enough to lynch.

Otherwise, lynching should continue, if there are sus ppl who seemed like maf. Since lynch is town's best weapon.

sorry I am not that good in phrasing my opinions. >_<

I guess it really depends on the amount of power roles left and how risky it is. The chances of this happening seem pretty slim, though.

Hey y'all! You guys can call me Kay, and I use she/her pronouns. I'm +3 Flight Rising time, but I'll be on at odd times anyway. My work is pretty busy but with weird hours, so I just try to be on when I can be. I'll start with the questions and go from there: @Rangiku While I see the merits of random voting, I am reticent about the results and information that come up from it. I do not personally have any experience when it comes to random voting, so I don't have any personal vignettes regarding the matter. It may start a conversation, but I am skeptical about the quality of reaction gauging that one could get from the randomly selected player. Unlike a normal accusation, the player can not exactly defend oneself or have anything to answer to, so how could their reasoning and defense really be a tell? Perhaps a merit could be that one could be able to see who is looking to mislynch this random player or the suspected player is overreacting to the mislynch. Maybe a mafia player may get too excited and capriciously push for a wagon prematurely. Personally, going off of this line of thinking feels too open to theory to be able to be trusted to yield good results. On that note, I do not necessarily think that those who do randomly vote are scummy. They may see more merit in it than I do, but that does not indicate what their role is. Mafia might like a random vote because it could lead to a higher likelihood of a mislynch. Town might like it because it may reveal more information about other players. In short, while I currently doubt the effectiveness of a random vote, I do not see those who do see merit in it scummy. @Cognitive I personally do not think there are many scenarios in which lynching is not a good idea. It seems that @Ghostray cited a specific example from an Afterlife game. However, I did not exactly understand what he meant by this explanation (By the way, Ghostray, I would love a clearer explanation, since I could not follow what you meant by that scenario. I assume it either had to do with roles or the mafia-town ratio). Lynching is one of town's greatest weapons. It allows town to ascertain roles without doubt posthumously. If town does mislynch, it allows the town to look back on who pushed the hardest (or least hardest) for a mislynch. Lynching is an important tool that should be used more often than not because of the sheer benefits for town. Now, onto some inquiries: @Gwendolyn On page 3, you say: [quote]There really is never a good time not to lynch. Everyone has their own reasons for not wanting to vote for a lynch. I won't vote if i can't see reason to the vote. If it's a random vote just to vote or a vote for an inactive or there just isn't enough information for me to personally go on. If I feel like I would just be voting for the sake of getting a vote in for the day.[/quote] In your post, you start in with the stance that there's never a good time not to lynch, but you present the caveat that everyone has their own reasons for not wanting to vote for a lynch. You then delve into the point that you won't vote on a lynch if you do not see the reason to. What, then, takes the highest precedence in a scenario in which a lynch will not go through without your input? This could happen for a multitude of reasons. A certain case might be that the end of day is soon, and your input is needed to break a tie. Would you rather not go through with a lynch by the merits of what you said in your second paragraph or vote by the merits of your first? @JaguarCutie224 On page 2, you say: [quote]And about RVS, TheNightDancer pretty much just stated my exact thoughts on it.[/quote] Can you elaborate on this? I'm uncomfortable with the fact that you would fully piggyback onto Night's statement without saying why you agree with the statement or at least adding something novel onto it. It comes across as sheeping, I must admit. @Kamme Do you have any input regarding the game or what you think of the players so far? On page 3, you say: [quote]As for the current discussion question: I really have no idea! It's interested to read everyone responses tho :D[/quote] I know this is your first game, and I understand how intimidating it can be, but I would also like to see your own original input. Like how I inquired Jag above, part of mafia is getting information about others based off their responses. Creating incomplete responses, vague responses, or piggybacking off of others comes off as scummy because it can come off like you are trying to obfuscate your role and make yourself harder to read. Hence, it'd be better if you also contribute as well. If anything, it'd be great to even see your thought processes. What comes off as wierd or odd? What about tone or strategy? @Sirenia On page one, you say: [quote]I think if we have no leads and we must find someone soon, then RVS is a good thing. I don't see it as scummy. [/quote] I believe that Cognitive already inquired you about this, but what do you mean by "we must find someone soon". Do you mean by someone to lynch and there are no leads? Does that mean there are times when it is not necessary to find someone soon to be suspicious of? @TheNightDancer On page 2, you say: [quote] As for RVS - I do find it a bit scummy. Random lynches are far more likely to hurt town than mafia just because town is the majority. Even if there isn't a lot of conversation, it's better to try and pick at what's there or ask more questions to prompt discussion than to just choose somebody at random that you don't find sus. I do understand that RVS is used to prompt discussion, so I can see why it would be used, but I think there are better ways to promote discussion and have a lynch than sussing someone for essentially no reason.[/quote] There is a point of contradiction within your paragraph. The topic sentence says that you are more inclined to believe that those who would push for a random vote is more likely to be mafia. However, you also cede that you understand that random votes are used to prompt discussion (granted, you did not that there are better ways in your eyes than random votes). First of all, if you can even see the benefits of a random vote, then how can it be so scummy? Also, unlike what your first line of reasoning details about the scuminess of random votes seems to explain, We are not discussing random lynches, but random votes here. It is not a guarantee that those who will be randomly voted on will be randomly lynched as well. Even Rangiku said further down the page that in their game (quote for reference:) [quote]When doing RVS, it really all depends on circumstance. I have played a few games where RVS has been used to ignite discussion without the person being voted for as an intended lynch. The other game I am in currently did this D1 and no wagon was pushed through as a result of the RVS. It did however, bring forth interesting discussion to say the least.[/quote] The purpose of the RVS is to kickstart conversation, not push for someone to get mislynched, from what I can surmise (perhaps except if mafia is doing it). Prompting discussion can also be a town decision too. It allows for more information to be shared and analyzed. Sure, it could be mafia trying to lead town, but it could also be town trying to help fellow town. Also, no one is throwing sus on a person who was randomly chosen (hence the idea of "random" in this case (the caveat here, as I said before, would be mafia who is trying to push for a mislynch and already knows who is and who is not town)). It does put that player in a bit more of a hot seat than normal, but it does not necessarily create a wagon for them. Sure, their reactions may be assessed, but so will everyone else's. I must admit that your thesis that RVS is scummy is a bit lackluster and requires a bit of elaboration. Sorry for the text dump, but I found that your response seemed both odd and had enough meat on it to be able to dissect and argue about. Here are my thoughts for now. I believe that there has been some activity since I've started typing this text monster I'll try to catch up and see if I have any more thoughts on these matters. Please ping me if you have questions.

Ah, final note, I forgot to talk about @Tristess On page 2, you say: [quote]I have no experience with RVS, but it seems to help scumhunting, therefore it shouldn't be seen as scummy.[/quote] You seem to have an odd explanation. You have no experience with RVS, yet you say that it "seems" to help scumhunting. If you have not had experience with RVS, then how can you say that it is beneficial to town because it seems to help? Is it because of the theory of RVS? I mean, I talked about the theoretical merits, so it doesn't mean that those who haven't done RVS can't talk about RVS, but your response is quite minimal. On page 3, you sort of elaborate: [quote]The best time to not lunch would probably be when lynching hurts town in some way or that time storm refused to die :P.[/quote] I'm not sure what you mean here. What do you mean when something "hurts town?" Do you mean by mislynches? When do lynches hurt town in your eyes?

In regards to questions (I'm currently catching up): @TheNightDancer I agree it is better to hold out on a lynch than lynch a purely random person, but especially as it gets later in the game, the idea that someone is being randomly voted for would become suspicious in itself. As lynches and information stack up, I would be surprised if no one could think of someone who at least deserves a closer look. Even for Day 1, I would be suspicious of someone who votes for voting sake without giving some insight into why they are voting (save for RVS, which is a thought process in itself I suppose). @Tanglefire On page 5, you say: [quote] I think maybe no lynch would be better, so as t prevent hitting town. But only when there is really no one that is 'scummy' enough to lynch.[/quote] What do you define as scummy enough to lynch? I mean, the only evidence town (save for roles that give accurate information about other players' roles and alignments) has to go off of are interpretations of forum posts, and there will be times that town is misled and ends up mislynching. In that sense, what makes someone suspicious enough to which you are certain enough to vote for a lynch? @Tristess On page 5, you say: [quote]I guess it really depends on the amount of power roles left and how risky it is. The chances of this happening seem pretty slim, though.[/quote] What do you mean? Are you answering the given questions? What does "this" mean? I must admit that you've definitely lost me.

@kaymontacell No worries for the text dump; good on you for managing to make such a long response so early on in the game! In response to you: I understand that it can potentially be used for town benefit, but I think we should still be wary when it is used because it can be easily used by mafia to push for town, which makes it a bit of a scummy move to me. I do concede that I was thinking more of random lynches than votes, but I still find it difficult to warm to the idea. I think you contradict yourself a bit here (although you might have simply been trying to argue the other side) [quote name="kaymontacell" date=2017-06-10 19:19:37] While I see the merits of random voting, I am reticent about the results and information that come up from it. I do not personally have any experience when it comes to random voting, so I don't have any personal vignettes regarding the matter.[b] It may start a conversation, but I am skeptical about the quality of reaction gauging that one could get from the randomly selected player. Unlike a normal accusation, the player can not exactly defend oneself or have anything to answer to, so how could their reasoning and defense really be a tell?[/b] Perhaps a merit could be that one could be able to see who is looking to mislynch this random player or the suspected player is overreacting to the mislynch. Maybe a mafia player may get too excited and capriciously push for a wagon prematurely. [b]Personally, going off of this line of thinking feels too open to theory to be able to be trusted to yield good results.[/b] -cut- The purpose of the RVS is to kickstart conversation, not push for someone to get mislynched, from what I can surmise (perhaps except if mafia is doing it). Prompting discussion can also be a town decision too. [b]It allows for more information to be shared and analyzed.[/b] Sure, it could be mafia trying to lead town, but it could also be town trying to help fellow town. Also, no one is throwing sus on a person who was randomly chosen (hence the idea of "random" in this case (the caveat here, as I said before, would be mafia who is trying to push for a mislynch and already knows who is and who is not town)). It does put that player in a bit more of a hot seat than normal, but it does not necessarily create a wagon for them. [b]Sure, their reactions may be assessed, but so will everyone else's.[/b] [/quote] You yourself state that RVS does not effectively complete its goals for town, even when it is just to kickstart discussion. But in the end, I think we are of similar minds - RVS is not really a good tactic to use in mafia.

@TheNightDancer Yes, I see what you mean between the two paragraphs. I see that we are, as you say, of the same mind when it comes to the effectiveness of RVS. My answer to Rangiku was in regard to how I personally feel about RVS (which we do seem to agree with). Where we do disagree is if RVS is alignment indicative. I argued that it is not, while you said that it leans towards scummy. I felt that your elaboration about why it was scummy was not convincing to me. The first part of your reasoning was more of an argument about random lynches (which you did concede). The second part of your argument elaborated on the fact that RVS is not the best course of action to scumhunt or gather information. In regard to your levy about contradiction, you cut out this part of my response even though it is one of the most important parts of my answer: [quote]I do not necessarily think that those who do randomly vote are scummy. They may see more merit in it than I do, but that does not indicate what their role is. [/quote] This is how I feel about people who RVS. I do not think that RVS is effective, but people have and may disagree with me and still be town. In my second block, I continue to argue this point: [quote]Prompting discussion can also be a town decision too. It allows for more information to be shared and analyzed.[/quote] You conveniently failed to emphasize the first sentence, which does coincide with another part you cut out of my response. I still hold to the fact that my feelings about RVS may differ from a townie's view on RVS. I then develop the idea of what RVS is used for (producing information, even if I myself am skeptical of the information it produces). I do concede here that I do develop town's reasons for using RVS more than mafia's reasons (though throughout I do make asides of how mafia could take advantage of the same system), but I never contradict my personal feelings about RVS. I hope that clarifies things for you.

@kaymontacell

Hmm.... let's see....

How I define as scummy: (from games I have spectate, so may not be accurate)

-ppl who tend to lurk, show up last second, say sth, and disappear again

-ppl starts talking weird and contradicts the stuff they said before

-when ppl say very little thing

-too much fluff and say nothing useful

I guess that is all..... well that is how define scum for now. Maybe I will add more to the list throughout the game as I learn.

Hi guys! I'm Nerasis - also known as Nera-Senpai, Everyone's Favourite Vampire Idol~ He/him pronouns, FRT+8. I'm here replacing Artgeekallday.

This is some pretty interesting discussion, hm? Seems mainly theory focused at the moment rather than actual scumhunting, but it's day one and something is better than nothing so I may as well add my own point of view.

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From my personal experience... Hm... Yes, I will concede that random voting can help to provide more discussion material - especially on day one - however, the random voter must be aware of the purpose of random voting, so that they are able to reap the benefits of such an action. If you're literally just going in the the lynch thread, picking out a person at random then ignoring the aftermath... Then that is NOT helpful to town. While, of course, having something to discuss helps town, chaos generally serves to help the mafia. Taking ANY action without proper forethought in mafia is irresponsible as town, therefore a random voter who does not consider the consequences of their vote for a player could be considered a bad townie at best, or even scummy in certain situations depending on their motives.

Random lynching is something that I do not approve of though - since if you're just going by probability you have a much higher chance of hitting town, especially early game - so I do not approve of random voting in cases where the random voter is actually attempting to lynch the player who was voted at random. Random voting is only okay with the intent to create discussion, NOT with the intent to actually lynch someone they picked at random.

As for the question on Random Lynch vs No Lynch... Eh. Both are really, not ideal. The question was posed together with the scenario that town has zero leads and is very close to lockdown. In that situation, with absolutely zero leads, then I would still, not really be happy with a random lynch. A random inactive lynch, sure. But, if we just pick at random, especially with so little time remaining in that situation, we're just making it more likely that we'll shoot ourselves in the foot. Besides, how can we trust the person who chooses at "random"? If that person is mafia, they could easily pick an active townie or likely PR and merely claim it was randomly chosen. Screenshot the random number generator, you say? No. That proves nothing - you can easily generate over and over until you get the number you want.

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I also find it somewhat amusing that despite all this talk of random voting, not a single player has actually placed a vote - random or otherwise - on anyone(minus Storm's obligatory modvote of course, but I'm not going to count that one). Your hearts are in the right place, but please, where is your initiative?

@kaymontacell
Pretty much, in that game I was a seer a townie and it was three townies against one maf, Firefly. Whom I had outed but they tricked us into thinking they couldn't be lynched. And then Gwendolyn made a mistake and pushed to lynch storm who was a lover character and their lover had died so they would have become maf should they die, I believe it was to lynching.
If we had not voted to lynch at all then town would have possibly won but it was unsure if we would try lynch Firefly again.

What I meant by it was really that on scarce occasions you shouldn't lynch. For example the one I cited but other than that, you should lynch. There is almost never a time to not lynch.