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TOPIC | Up the elim drop rates
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[quote name="Jemadar" date="2018-06-20 08:20:17" ] I agree with Sopheroo. Truthfully, I want MORE stones that can compete with eliminate (not eliminate clones) to take the pressure off Elim, but also I sort of wish people wouldn't emphasize how essential it is, because it really isn't. To me, essential means that you literally can't grind with out it, but you can grind without eliminate. (yes it is harder).[/quote] Then somebody oughta make a competing guide to that effect, because the current dominance and "essential" nature of glass-canon eliminate builds is because all the popular coliseum guides feature them. And while I agree it's possible to grind without it, you're at a severe disadvantage to people who can grind with a team with Eliminate. (Or maybe you're not--has someone done the numbers on how much faster it makes you? This would be good data for argue it's not essential and people can build non-Eliminate teams that will be 75% or 85% or whatever-% as effective as glass cannon teams, and break the hold Eliminate has in the Coli-grinding imagination.)
Jemadar wrote on 2018-06-20 08:20:17:
I agree with Sopheroo. Truthfully, I want MORE stones that can compete with eliminate (not eliminate clones) to take the pressure off Elim, but also I sort of wish people wouldn't emphasize how essential it is, because it really isn't. To me, essential means that you literally can't grind with out it, but you can grind without eliminate. (yes it is harder).

Then somebody oughta make a competing guide to that effect, because the current dominance and "essential" nature of glass-canon eliminate builds is because all the popular coliseum guides feature them.

And while I agree it's possible to grind without it, you're at a severe disadvantage to people who can grind with a team with Eliminate. (Or maybe you're not--has someone done the numbers on how much faster it makes you? This would be good data for argue it's not essential and people can build non-Eliminate teams that will be 75% or 85% or whatever-% as effective as glass cannon teams, and break the hold Eliminate has in the Coli-grinding imagination.)

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everything happens so much
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I'M GONNA DRINK IT LIKE A PERSON
Eliminates aren't only for glass cannons - they're also crucial to mire two-fodder builds, fast & effective farmers, ghostbusters, roosters, and any golem workshop team. I spend a lot of time in the coli & have a lot of colis. The few that I've had without eliminates were far slower & less effective.

Personally, I'd prefer if eliminates were just returned to Pinkerton's pool. That's a simple solution that we can be confident won't make them excessively common, but will help people get them.
Eliminates aren't only for glass cannons - they're also crucial to mire two-fodder builds, fast & effective farmers, ghostbusters, roosters, and any golem workshop team. I spend a lot of time in the coli & have a lot of colis. The few that I've had without eliminates were far slower & less effective.

Personally, I'd prefer if eliminates were just returned to Pinkerton's pool. That's a simple solution that we can be confident won't make them excessively common, but will help people get them.
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[quote name="Achi" date="2018-06-20 10:58:12" ] Eliminates aren't only for glass cannons - they're also crucial to mire two-fodder builds, fast & effective farmers, ghostbusters, roosters, and any golem workshop team. I spend a lot of time in the coli & have a lot of colis. The few that I've had without eliminates were far slower & less effective.[/quote] Yes, sorry, true. I should've said the "essential" nature of eliminate-based builds. The only way to break the idea that eliminate is essential for good Coli-farming is to, well, show that it isn't by demonstrating builds that do nearly as well without it. No such demonstration has been made, ergo eliminate is considered essential because no one wants to farm the Coliseum at 30% efficiency. They'll get their lunches eaten by people who do have dragons with eliminate. And, to answer @Jemadar's original point: I don't think two-fodder leveling is possible without eliminate, so in that sense eliminate [i]is[/i] essential to a particular lucrative playstyle. If someone can prove me wrong with a two-fodder leveling build that doesn't rely on eliminate, I'll retract my point, but I don't think such a build exists. ETA: Having gone and done a bit of work, it looks like the Sedona build is a good option that doesn't use eliminate and can go fairly fast! But not as fast as any of the eliminate-using builds.
Achi wrote on 2018-06-20 10:58:12:
Eliminates aren't only for glass cannons - they're also crucial to mire two-fodder builds, fast & effective farmers, ghostbusters, roosters, and any golem workshop team. I spend a lot of time in the coli & have a lot of colis. The few that I've had without eliminates were far slower & less effective.
Yes, sorry, true. I should've said the "essential" nature of eliminate-based builds.

The only way to break the idea that eliminate is essential for good Coli-farming is to, well, show that it isn't by demonstrating builds that do nearly as well without it. No such demonstration has been made, ergo eliminate is considered essential because no one wants to farm the Coliseum at 30% efficiency. They'll get their lunches eaten by people who do have dragons with eliminate.

And, to answer @Jemadar's original point: I don't think two-fodder leveling is possible without eliminate, so in that sense eliminate is essential to a particular lucrative playstyle. If someone can prove me wrong with a two-fodder leveling build that doesn't rely on eliminate, I'll retract my point, but I don't think such a build exists.

ETA: Having gone and done a bit of work, it looks like the Sedona build is a good option that doesn't use eliminate and can go fairly fast! But not as fast as any of the eliminate-using builds.

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everything happens so much
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I'M GONNA DRINK IT LIKE A PERSON
i'll always support the staff doing something to bring eliminate back closer to its old value and rarity. all making eliminates so scarce does is cheaply widen the gap between rich players and poor players, because richer ones with the means to farm the coli can make money much, much faster than ones who can't afford it. that kind of thing scares new players away and is bad for the economy in the long-term.
i'll always support the staff doing something to bring eliminate back closer to its old value and rarity. all making eliminates so scarce does is cheaply widen the gap between rich players and poor players, because richer ones with the means to farm the coli can make money much, much faster than ones who can't afford it. that kind of thing scares new players away and is bad for the economy in the long-term.
I agree with Jemadar. Put it in Mire and Crystal Pools (I think Mire will make all the difference), and if that doesn't help, then look at upping rates. But it is becoming a problem - every user needs 3, and it can take months of extreme coli-ing to get one.
I agree with Jemadar. Put it in Mire and Crystal Pools (I think Mire will make all the difference), and if that doesn't help, then look at upping rates. But it is becoming a problem - every user needs 3, and it can take months of extreme coli-ing to get one.
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[quote]It may be a matter of opinion...but my farmers need eliminate. Your fodder trainers: mire, ghostlight,kelp beds, harpy's roost...every build requires eliminate. And based on the game itself...eliminate is a level 7 stone. So why does it have a drop rate thats that low?[/quote] Mages don't need Eliminate, but casters absolutely need Ambushes, to Contuse everything as fast as possible. Ambush is needed for every single build - but you don't need Eliminate for all builds - clerics (which are pretty needed in Golem Workshop) don't need it. Eliminate's rarity isn't really a bad thing. Because the mechanics on Eliminate are downright broken. That's why it's extremely rare - because it's completely overpowered compared to everything else in the game. Not because of the damage it deals - an effective elemental attack will do as much as Eliminate. But, because of the fact it will refund its breath if it gets a KO. This is why mages aren't working as well, because Eliminate has an unfair advantage over the elemental ultimates. @laluzi [quote]But it is becoming a problem - every user needs 3, and it can take months of extreme coli-ing to get one.[/quote] Every user doesn't need THREE Eliminates, though. I have a single Eliminate user, and I get by pretty well, with little refreshes and lots of koala-tea drops, seriously. You'd want one or two Eliminate users, and you want your third spot to be either a) fodder you're training b) cleric for golem workshop Venues before Boreal Wood are only useful for farming, and you still don't need three Eliminate users there. Two will kill everything in sight with little damage.
Quote:
It may be a matter of opinion...but my farmers need eliminate. Your fodder trainers: mire, ghostlight,kelp beds, harpy's roost...every build requires eliminate. And based on the game itself...eliminate is a level 7 stone. So why does it have a drop rate thats that low?

Mages don't need Eliminate, but casters absolutely need Ambushes, to Contuse everything as fast as possible. Ambush is needed for every single build - but you don't need Eliminate for all builds - clerics (which are pretty needed in Golem Workshop) don't need it.


Eliminate's rarity isn't really a bad thing.

Because the mechanics on Eliminate are downright broken. That's why it's extremely rare - because it's completely overpowered compared to everything else in the game.

Not because of the damage it deals - an effective elemental attack will do as much as Eliminate.

But, because of the fact it will refund its breath if it gets a KO. This is why mages aren't working as well, because Eliminate has an unfair advantage over the elemental ultimates.

@laluzi
Quote:
But it is becoming a problem - every user needs 3, and it can take months of extreme coli-ing to get one.

Every user doesn't need THREE Eliminates, though. I have a single Eliminate user, and I get by pretty well, with little refreshes and lots of koala-tea drops, seriously.

You'd want one or two Eliminate users, and you want your third spot to be either

a) fodder you're training
b) cleric for golem workshop

Venues before Boreal Wood are only useful for farming, and you still don't need three Eliminate users there. Two will kill everything in sight with little damage.



Sorry, but saying players don't need eliminate is like telling race car drivers they need to get by with a bicycle. Sure, you can still get around the track on a bike, but that's not really the point.
Sorry, but saying players don't need eliminate is like telling race car drivers they need to get by with a bicycle. Sure, you can still get around the track on a bike, but that's not really the point.
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Okay, I suppose I conflated need with want, but it doesn't change that the optimum grinding method from Scorched Forest to Rainsong Jungle is a triple-elim team, and that all venues above that usually want at least two (with the exception of fodder flying builds.)

I don't mind Eliminate being rare and in-demand - it was always that way, and I like that it's something in the coli people can make money off of. However, I feel the price is spiraling out of control. It was comfortable at 2-300kt for a very long time; now it's around six.

The coli is already inherently unbalanced - it's not just Eliminate. The mages are a fantastic example of this - some flights, like Ice, Lightning, and Wind, have incredibly powerful elemental attacks. Plague and Fire have pretty lame ones, and Earth's is so bad it's actively detrimental when the secondary effect applies. Eliminate's use isn't necessarily its power - it's in demand because of its speed. People want to plow through enemy teams as quickly as possible, and that's why mages fall by the wayside despite having far greater utility.

Really, I think sticking Eliminate in the Mire would fix all supply problems. I'm somewhat curious as to why the staff chose to exclude elim from specific venues.
Okay, I suppose I conflated need with want, but it doesn't change that the optimum grinding method from Scorched Forest to Rainsong Jungle is a triple-elim team, and that all venues above that usually want at least two (with the exception of fodder flying builds.)

I don't mind Eliminate being rare and in-demand - it was always that way, and I like that it's something in the coli people can make money off of. However, I feel the price is spiraling out of control. It was comfortable at 2-300kt for a very long time; now it's around six.

The coli is already inherently unbalanced - it's not just Eliminate. The mages are a fantastic example of this - some flights, like Ice, Lightning, and Wind, have incredibly powerful elemental attacks. Plague and Fire have pretty lame ones, and Earth's is so bad it's actively detrimental when the secondary effect applies. Eliminate's use isn't necessarily its power - it's in demand because of its speed. People want to plow through enemy teams as quickly as possible, and that's why mages fall by the wayside despite having far greater utility.

Really, I think sticking Eliminate in the Mire would fix all supply problems. I'm somewhat curious as to why the staff chose to exclude elim from specific venues.
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The only eliminate I have ever gotten was gifted to me. My only level 25 dragon was also gifted to me. Truthfully I haven't been super active in the Coliseum because of how discouraging the system is. I find the leveling restrictions really odd. I think that's pretty discouraging. It forces you to either have a level 25 dragon in your party taking dragons not of level to higher areas where they die immediately and you're just riding out on the level 25 until it faints, or you go to areas without the level 25 dragon where you can have multiple dragons of a lower level but it takes absolutely forever just to do one battle or level them. It's super annoying. At the very least making eliminate something that is more available to people would take off a little pressure of the coli.

I support a higher drop rate.
The only eliminate I have ever gotten was gifted to me. My only level 25 dragon was also gifted to me. Truthfully I haven't been super active in the Coliseum because of how discouraging the system is. I find the leveling restrictions really odd. I think that's pretty discouraging. It forces you to either have a level 25 dragon in your party taking dragons not of level to higher areas where they die immediately and you're just riding out on the level 25 until it faints, or you go to areas without the level 25 dragon where you can have multiple dragons of a lower level but it takes absolutely forever just to do one battle or level them. It's super annoying. At the very least making eliminate something that is more available to people would take off a little pressure of the coli.

I support a higher drop rate.
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You can fight with lower-levelled dragons in their proper venues, excluding the Scorched Forest (which is definitely overpowered for level 7-8s.) It just requires those dragons to have more even builds instead of glass cannon fragility, and it's far slower than anything a level 25 could do.

And I find that once you get to maybe Forgotten Cave, fighting with those weaker teams - it feels like one of your dragons is meant to have eliminate. It won't 1hko opponents, even with Rally, but it's a far neater experience when you can hit something and then eliminate with the next dragon in line it as opposed to having to hit every opponent four or five times. The time to defeat an enemy jumps fast beyond Woodland Path, or maybe Sandswept Delta.
You can fight with lower-levelled dragons in their proper venues, excluding the Scorched Forest (which is definitely overpowered for level 7-8s.) It just requires those dragons to have more even builds instead of glass cannon fragility, and it's far slower than anything a level 25 could do.

And I find that once you get to maybe Forgotten Cave, fighting with those weaker teams - it feels like one of your dragons is meant to have eliminate. It won't 1hko opponents, even with Rally, but it's a far neater experience when you can hit something and then eliminate with the next dragon in line it as opposed to having to hit every opponent four or five times. The time to defeat an enemy jumps fast beyond Woodland Path, or maybe Sandswept Delta.
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