Suggestions

[quote]What I meant was, new treasure eye types will be released over time so your old dragons are not “abandoned and left out” of these updates. A new eye type takes only slightly less work than a new gene so calm down and wait awhile. The first release was some unusual only-available-through-breeding eyes, to build hype.[/quote] [color=indigo] Yes, but the eyes to come will never be the same as the breedable only eyes. There will never be another eye type that provides multiple eyes, or one that gives a dragon's eyes elemental energy. We already have those, even if they are damn near impossible to get. What if a new player some time in the future thinks multi-gaze would be perfect for their progen but will be unable to get it due to miserable odds and skyrocketing vial prices? Are they just SOL? [quote]The big mean admins aren’t oppressing your old dragons. You can live without having the newest hottest things for every one of your dragons for a bit while new eye types are drawn.[/quote] [color=indigo] Nobody is claiming oppression or "big mean admins", we are simply giving feedback over something that matters to us. Do I hate the admins and think they're oppressing us? No, that would be dumb. I just feel strongly about this topic (and the fact that we've heard nothing about it) and am voicing my support for something I agree with. [quote]As far as a “legacy” eye type? Maybe, but it’s not likely. Color changes and corrections have to happen occasionally, and no tantrum would get you a “legacy” version of seafoam, or a “legacy” nest to breed on for people who miss the old color wheel. Or “legacy” armor with the old art[/quote] [color=indigo] Except on 90% of websites that are like Flight Rising, this is exactly how it works. People in these threads have mentioned Wajas, Subeta, and Neopets, which all have some kind of legacy pet option after they change art as to not anger the older players. [quote]And if you simply can’t live with a 2% chance of a hatchling you could sell for more than average and “will never breed again because” of the potential to get primal or multigaze, then that is just beyond ridiculous. The admins won’t switch off a site feature to accommodate your nitpicking any more than they would let you pick the gender of your hatchlings.[/quote] [color=indigo] Phobias exist. I personally love body horror but someone else may feel physical repulsion upon seeing things like multi eye or some of the primals. People have complained about other items causing problems like this but the difference here is that you don't have to buy whatever gene gives you a headache or familiar that triggers your phobia, but you have a chance of hatching a dragon that will due to the random nature. [quote] RNG is a feature of breeding since the beginning, and if you can’t shell out 3 gems for a common vial, then you probably didn’t spend “months on a breeding project, only to be horrified by weird eyes” [/quote] [color=indigo] Not really, no it hasn't. The only true RNG that can't be controlled for is a dragon's sex and that's literally 50/50 odds, not so bad. Colours are random but it is possible to get a narrow enough range to raise the odds of getting a specific colour. If I want a Robin dragon, it's not like I have to breed randomly until the RNG spits out the colour I want, I can buy a dragon with cyan and one with turquoise and I will probably get robin in a few months. But trying to breed a dragon with a rare eye type? Others have done the math in this thread and for imperials with primal, the odds point to it potentially taking LONGER THAN THE SITE HAS BEEN AROUND. That's ridiculous. Flight Rising has not been a site heavily centered around RNG, it has been centered around control and customization of our dragons. Colours are controlled by breeding. Genes and breed changes can be bought. This is why a lot of people joined this site. This is why I have stuck around on this site for over 5 years but abandon most other petsites within a year, they have too many frustrating RNG mechanics.

[quote name="Izakadu" date="2018-09-27 12:03:59" ] What I meant was, new treasure eye types will be released over time so your old dragons are not “abandoned and left out” of these updates. A new eye type takes only slightly less work than a new gene so calm down and wait awhile. The first release was some unusual only-available-through-breeding eyes, to build hype. The big mean admins aren’t oppressing your old dragons. You can live without having the newest hottest things for every one of your dragons for a bit while new eye types are drawn. As far as a “legacy” eye type? Maybe, but it’s not likely. Color changes and corrections have to happen occasionally, and no tantrum would get you a “legacy” version of seafoam, or a “legacy” nest to breed on for people who miss the old color wheel. Or “legacy” armor with the old art And if you simply can’t live with a 2% chance of a hatchling you could sell for more than average and “will never breed again because” of the potential to get primal or multigaze, then that is just beyond ridiculous. The admins won’t switch off a site feature to accommodate your nitpicking any more than they would let you pick the gender of your hatchlings. RNG is a feature of breeding since the beginning, and if you can’t shell out 3 gems for a common vial, then you probably didn’t spend “months on a breeding project, only to be horrified by weird eyes” [/quote] [b]Oh dear. Big tl;dr warning, as I have many, many words.[/b] While it is true that RNG has always been a part of FR, there has always been some degree of fairness and predictability. You aren't going to suddenly have a Fae when breeding a Bogsneak and a Coatl. Dragons with Clown and Tiger aren't going to hatch Alloy. Breeding dragons with Tangerine and Aqua tertiary colors isn't going to net you a hatchling with Pearl as a random mutation, even if one of their grandparents had a Pearl tert. The only "true" RNG was gender; which was an even 50/50 split. Now the only way to get six of the eight currently available eye types that isn't reliant on breeding is by a retired consumable that doesn't give you a guaranteed shot at what you're expecting to get. This is also assuming that the new eye types that they're releasing "for treasure" (okay) are going to fit as well as Faceted, Uncommon, Rare, etc. My issue was not that I especially dislike any of the new eyes, but instead to do with the mechanics and aesthetics of how this update was implemented. I do not want the update wholesale removed from the site, of course, but my choice to withhold my own nests is largely a personal preference driven by what I consider to be poor design implementation. It's presumptuous of you to assume that I'm "horrified" by weird eyes to begin with, given that's not even close to what I was referring to. I have no phobia of Multi/Facet/Primal, and it's the fact they crop up in nests specifically because they do not fit the aesthetic of the four other "normal" (read: RNG) eye types is why I no longer want to have nests. Sorry if my personal decision offended you somehow. Speaking of users with serious phobias, though, since it was brought up; I do believe they deserve to have their needs met with some compromise, especially given how scopophobia and eye-trauma related triggers are fairly common. Now, before I hear anything close to the lines of [i]"well arachnophobia is a common fear people have so you want to remove all arachnids from on site!"[/i]; there is no gene that turns your hatchlings into spiders. Scopophobia is a specific problem and, prior to this update, users could avoid it by just not keeping certain breeds or avoiding certain genes. Now, if you are triggered by Multi-Gaze or Plague/Shadow Primal, you are expected to just choke it down and buy a Vial of Tempered Sight (since selling in the AH for all the profit they're worth would mean having to keep it in your lair for however long that takes) or shell out 1500 gems for a Flight change if you already used yours when they were first released. Furthermore, I don't appreciate getting talked down to as if individuals frequenting this thread and discussing site mechanics in a way intended to make features accessible for [i]all[/i] users (not just those who were able to grind for the three days the update was active) are screaming, "tantruming" children. Many of us have poured years of time, money, art and interest into this site and having a new feature introduced that is reliant on such skewed RNG and will be inaccessible in a controlled way to a vast majority of users bodes poorly for site longevity. New users finding themselves locked out of site mechanics, customization options, or items purely because "they weren't there" don't tend to stay. Especially as the eye vials get increasingly inaccessible as time goes on, as a retired consumable. Light Sprites and KS items may be rare, but aside from Imp scrolls you can't use them up; and with Imp Scrolls, as I've said, you're guaranteed to get an Imperial if you do use them. If you like the update, and have absolutely no issues with it, cool! If you truly feel nothing needs to be changed or fixed or whatever, that's great and I'm sincerely glad you feel that way; not as many do. But your original post bringing up "the first few weeks of drama" as if this isn't an ongoing problem that users like DeadBattery and Cryoflyte are trying to find compromises for felt quite baited to me, which was what fueled my own (admittedly frustrated) response. And finally, because I see it a lot in threads where people are perceived as being "negative" about a new site mechanic or feature; being critical of decisions on site isn't the same as being abusive towards staff, especially not if individuals with said concerns are trying to be productive and find positive solutions. The staff are people and as such should be treated with individual dignity on the basis of that. They are also running a company and need to address problems for the sake of users who are providing them with revenue. They don't work for free, and disregarding a majority of questions and concerns with "we just intended for this to happen" when they were blatantly ill-prepared for the feedback they got is not something I would consider a defensible response. [b]/tl;dr[/b]

You guys don't understand how thankful I am you feel so strongly connected to this topic and how fiercly you protect it, bless, ily ♥

Also, let's put it this way. You have a character whom you adore and want to design a dragon to represent them as accurately as possible. Your work your butt off for 4 years, spend irl money, purchase art, etc and one suddenly one day your dragon doesn't look the same way they did before. Would you be angry?

Another example. You get up one day expecting a good update and to your suprise it's a three day long limited event featuring a new breed. It becomes your favourite breed and you have 11 dragons who would look absolutely perfect as the new addition. HOWEVER, breed scrolls will retire forever in three days and even if you get some breed scrolls, there is a 0.9% chance you'll acquire that breed once it's applied to a dragon. 99.1% consists of random other breeds. You spend 11,968 Gems on the scrolls in the next few days and get none. :^)

[quote name="DeadBattery" date="2018-09-27 14:52:09" ] Also, let's put it this way. You have a character whom you adore and want to design a dragon to represent them as accurately as possible. Your work your butt off for 4 years, spend irl money, purchase art, etc and one suddenly one day your dragon doesn't look the same way they did before. Would you be angry? [/quote] This is what happened to me, argh. I spent many months searching for the perfect G1 to match a character I love, and then I finally found one with the exact gender, colours, and Flight that I wanted. I paid a lot of money for her, worked hard to get genes and a Pearlcatcher scroll for her, and even paid real-life money for a Glimmer scroll because her bright red eyes were a [i]perfect[/i] match for the character. I even drew a few pictures of her, and she was one of my favorite dragons ever. Then a little over a year later, the Common eyes got “standardized” for seemingly no reason (as the original eye artwork looked fine; nobody had ever said it looked old, unlike old apparel), and her perfect bright red Plague eyes- the entire reason I bought her in the first place- are now muddy, dark, and dull. The whites of her eyes are gone, and the changes to the lineart and shading completely changed her expression. Had she looked like this when I first saw her, I wouldn’t have bought her. :/ Also, there are a couple of big differences between adding a Legacy eye type and adding Legacy Seafoam (among others) or Legacy apparel: 1) The eye system is perfectly set up to add more eye types. Since the art for all Legacy eyes exists, it would just have to be re-added to the eye pool and given its own vial (coding for specific vials also exists). The eye system was designed with options and flexibility in mind. Legacy eyes would be a relatively quick and easy option to add, and it wouldn’t negatively affect anyone— people who prefer other eye types just don’t have to use Legacy vials. The colour wheel lacks that flexibility. While I would love “Legacy” versions of the old pastels, I don’t know how they would code it, since the colour wheel is set up on an automated system now. If it [i]were[/i] possible, it would likely be difficult to implement— unlike Legacy eyes, which just need the old art added to the eye type options. 2) We were warned well in advance that the old colours would be changing (though it was somewhat vague in the annoucement post). We were outright told “Hey, when we expand the CWE, we’ll be updating some colours because of the new automated system”. We were not told that our dragons’ eyes- a crucial feature of all dragons and possibly the biggest reason for Flight selection- would be changing. There was no warning at all; everyone just logged in one day to find that our dragons had all been irreversibly changed. Since people have spent months to years of work carefully collecting, breeding, and customizing dragons down to the last pixel, and since people have obviously spent real-world money on the site (as skins/accents, Flight changes, and some genes all cost Gems), suddenly changing all existing dragons really didn’t feel like a wise or kind decision. :( 3) Unlike old apparel, the original art for dragons’ eyes didn’t look clunky, dated, or out of place. In my 5 years on FR, I’ve never once seen someone say “I hope they update the eyes, my dragons look hideous” or “The eye art looks so bad on the dragons; it doesn’t match the rest of the site at all!” or anything. I can definitely understand staff updating apparel and not adding the old art back, as a lot of it [b]looked[/b] old and really stuck out among the nicer, newer artwork... but the eyes looked fine. Now most adult breeds have lost their pupils and most/all of their eye shading, save for a few breeds that just have flat white highlights. — idk. As a paying user who’s been around for 5 years, I don’t appreciate having dragons that I carefully collected, gened, and bred for all having their pupils erased and eye colours messed up for an arbitrary reason like “standardization”. :’0 I’ve also always found “But if they add this, people will want MORE!” to be a silly counter-argument?? People always want more. [b]Always[/b]. Every time a new gene or breed comes out, people say “But I want something else!” or “But when’s the NEXT breed/gene coming?!”. Does that mean staff should never release any new content or tweak any site features ever again? Just because they’re willing to compromise on certain issues doesn’t mean they’re obligated to do it for everything. It’s not like adding Legacy vials and specific eye vials would put staff under some kind of contractural obligation to bow to the userbase’s every desire, haha.

[quote]You have a character whom you adore and want to design a dragon to represent them as accurately as possible. Your work your butt off for 4 years, spend irl money, purchase art, etc and one suddenly one day your dragon doesn't look the same way they did before. Would you be angry?[/quote] [url=http://flightrising.com/main.php?dragon=22030597]Yes[/url] and [url=http://flightrising.com/main.php?dragon=38090310]yes[/url]. Well, not "angry," per se. Sounds too violent. But, sure. Close enough. I still don't have the eyes I want for the first guy. Tundra eyes were [i]the best[/i] before the update. And I don't mean that in comparison to other dragons' eyes. I mean it in comparison to Tundra eyes after the update. Tundra eyes already hit their high point. Shame to pull them down like this. I'm most upset at the staff's response to the whole disaster, to be honest. It was like, "We know you're upset and we did just let a bunch of you panic for three days without saying a word, but we still think this is important for no reason we're going to give you. So. Yeah. Sorry about that again, bye." And it was "bye." Because we've not heard another word about it since. They're not trying. When it comes to legacy eyes especially, it would take approximately no work to implement them. They already (presumably) have all the tools, because they've got the art and they've got the ability to selectively apply eyes. There's no reason to [i]not[/i] provide "legacy eye vials" that I can think of besides, "Because we think it's a good idea not to." Again, for no reason they're telling us. For all we know, it's important for no reason at all. Not that they [i]have to[/i] give us reasons. But... they kind of do. Honestly, it's just life. It's just business. We aren't [i]friends[/i] with the staff. We do our job, click around on the site and provide ad revenue or purchase premium currency. In return, they do their job and give us [i]reasons[/i] to spend our time and money. [quote=@Izakadu]The first release was some unusual only-available-through-breeding eyes, to build hype.[/quote] Apologies if you don't like pings, but do you have a link for that? I can't find it anywhere. I got the impression that they were releasing more eye-types, but not that there wouldn't be more only-available-through-breeding eyes. In fact, I thought it was clear that the majority of the eyes released will not be able to be bred for or applied, since it isn't a quarternary gene and the eyes are meant to provide something "special" upon hatching.

oof wow

well there's little for me to add, but in all honesty, I find the eye update quite pointless, I mean on most breeds the eyes are too small to really notice anything. But that aside...

We DO NOT hate or dislike this update we're just saying "Hey, we'd love it if we can enjoy this too" A lot of us have dragons we can't just replace easily
g1's, progens, sentimental dragons etc

Overall there's like only 10 dragons in my whole lair I care about getting specific eye types for, and those are my flight reps.

I'd love to get primal eyes for them, at least 10 of them. The 11th one is my own progen

Now I don't want primal eyes on him because I think the plague primal eyes are the worst, it looks more like cheap B horror movie makeup, it sadly only really goes with a specific color range of dragons. A range my progen is sadly not in, I'd love to have multi eyes on him though it'd look wonderful.

Sadly the only way to get them is by using a retired consumable and only a 0,5% chance or something to actually get what I want

For my other flight reps, I can rebreed them sure but it could take up to literal YEARS. That's just....ridculous I mean yeah FR is a breeding game but years for one breeding project? Assuming the site even still exists by then, I'm sorry but that is the exact opposite of fine, I don't mind working for things but having to take years?


And as was mentioned before it takes away the control we had, some people do not like this, and yeah phobias too, in most cases it can be avoided. But for those who have an aversion to body horror CAN'T really turn this off or avoid it. I personally don't have these problems but I can sympathize with people who do.

I don't see why both isn't an option, why can't we have vials for all sort of eye types? Special ones can be obtained through different means, but why not have a vial for common, uncommon and rare in the treasure MP? It'd least give us back some of the control we had

I know they said the eyes aren't some sort of quarternary gene but let's be honest here, they practically are, the only difference being that there's no guarantee that they're passed down to the offspring that's it.

I’m sorry for being somewhat aggressive in my last post, but I just can not support this.

And if your phobia is severe enough that you can’t look at a cartoon scary thing for the two times it take to hatch it and then click exalt, then that is well past the point where you should rely on others managing it for you. Please stop acting like having a phobia makes someone helpless and instantly traumatized by seeing it. It’s highly insulting.

Leaving aside the question of who should feel insulted right now...

I've always held that managing phobias is not FR's responsibility. But I also believe that doing so would be beneficial to them in the long run. I had hoped for a toggle on your account that would prevent your nests from hatching Primals, Faceteds or Multis. It would reduce the overall number of exotic-eyed dragons, making them even more valuable, and it wouldn't hurt anyone except those who choose to hit the toggle. These people would willingly opt out of hatching dragons that are worth more money in order to ensure they're comfortable on the site. And the exotic-eye economy would benefit because no one would be throwing a Primal on the AH for 1kt just to get it out of their lair quickly. XD

@Izakadu, it's fine if you like the update. It's fine if you're totally okay with the system in place and it hasn't impacted you negatively in any way. In that sense your feedback is absolutely valuable to develop a balanced standard for understanding both sides of this issue. But uh... spinning this into that tiresome rhetoric of "well if you have a severe phobia/trauma/disability/etc. this bad maybe you should never do anything ever" on a feature that was just recently introduced to site function, after people have gotten reasonably comfortable with what to expect on-site? Come on. You're totally right that most people with phobias are able to stomach some cartoon gore or body horror or whatever, but you're still explicitly ignoring users who did leave because they couldn't. I'm not bothered by gore or eye-horror, but I can understand why people who are might've left based on their own experiences and explanations. It's not difficult to take in what others are experiencing and empathize with that. All that aside, I'd also like to apologize for that gigantic wall of text earlier and for being reactionary regarding your initial post. I'm standing by what I said, but I could've said it in a less inflammatory and defensive way. It's not my intention to turn this thread into a mass argument, so I'm sorry for not dropping the issue sooner. [item=peace dove]

I will just shortly say, i agree with each idea from the front page and would Support this !!