[quote name="Darcarin" date="2014-12-31 09:57:40"]No support for total removal.
Yes, dodge is annoying, and it would be nice if enemies did not dodge repeated multiple times in a row, but I have no issue with dodge existing. It generates an aspect of unpredictability, that keeps the challenge up and keeps the fights a bit exciting.
We are not entitled to strike the enemy every time we attack. That makes the game play too linear, too predictable. We should not be able to plan out every battle down to the move. That is honestly boring.[/quote]
This here ^^^
Darcarin wrote on 2014-12-31 09:57:40:
No support for total removal.
Yes, dodge is annoying, and it would be nice if enemies did not dodge repeated multiple times in a row, but I have no issue with dodge existing. It generates an aspect of unpredictability, that keeps the challenge up and keeps the fights a bit exciting.
We are not entitled to strike the enemy every time we attack. That makes the game play too linear, too predictable. We should not be able to plan out every battle down to the move. That is honestly boring.
This here ^^^
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Darcarin It's already boring. Scratch, eliminate, maybe a rally thrown in for flavor or meditate-contuse-heal if you've got a glass caster to go with your glass cannons, but I don't know anyone who goes to the coli for
excitement. Leveling fighters, leveling exalts, farming currency or food...all things where predictability is welcome and dodges are unwanted. When I get dodged once, it's an annoyance. Twice in a row makes me angry because now I have to waste time building my breath back up before I can resume the pattern and give coli the minimum amount of attention required - just enough to aim.
Fighting in the Arena with my level 25 dragons is not even remotely challenging, with or without dodges. Fighting in a level 25 area, two dodges can be the difference between success and failure and if it looks like defeat is immanent, I reload. It was the same when I was leveling. At no time did I think dodges were exciting or challenging - they were either annoying, or time to reload. Since dodge is not serving the purpose you attribute to it, why should it stay?
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Darcarin It's already boring. Scratch, eliminate, maybe a rally thrown in for flavor or meditate-contuse-heal if you've got a glass caster to go with your glass cannons, but I don't know anyone who goes to the coli for
excitement. Leveling fighters, leveling exalts, farming currency or food...all things where predictability is welcome and dodges are unwanted. When I get dodged once, it's an annoyance. Twice in a row makes me angry because now I have to waste time building my breath back up before I can resume the pattern and give coli the minimum amount of attention required - just enough to aim.
Fighting in the Arena with my level 25 dragons is not even remotely challenging, with or without dodges. Fighting in a level 25 area, two dodges can be the difference between success and failure and if it looks like defeat is immanent, I reload. It was the same when I was leveling. At no time did I think dodges were exciting or challenging - they were either annoying, or time to reload. Since dodge is not serving the purpose you attribute to it, why should it stay?
[quote name="Darcarin" date="2014-12-31 09:57:40"]No support for total removal.
Yes, dodge is annoying, and it would be nice if enemies did not dodge repeated multiple times in a row, but I have no issue with dodge existing. It generates an aspect of unpredictability, that keeps the challenge up and keeps the fights a bit exciting.
We are not entitled to strike the enemy every time we attack. That makes the game play too linear, too predictable. We should not be able to plan out every battle down to the move. That is honestly boring.[/quote]
I was thinking about ways that dodge could be changed but kept in a way that, I feel, is still fair. This is what I was thinking:
1. A neutral ability stone like shred or eliminate, with a 100% dodge chance but needs to be picked as the single action your dragon does on it's turn and costs breath to use.
2. An energy stone, like scratch, with a 100% chance to dodge and generates a small amount of breath each time it's used
3. Similar to #2, but only, say, 90% dodge rate and generates breath on an unsuccessful dodge
4. An option similar to the "defend" action, with a 100% dodge rate. No breath is gained or lost and it's the only action your dragon takes on it's turn.
I really think that something like one of these options is the best middle ground between totally getting rid of dodge and keeping it. Any one of these options reduces the amount of times an enemy can dodge, keeps the "element of unpredictability", and removes the extreme frustration because you know your enemy was using dodge as a battle strategy, rather than being a passive dice roll in their favor.
Darcarin wrote on 2014-12-31 09:57:40:
No support for total removal.
Yes, dodge is annoying, and it would be nice if enemies did not dodge repeated multiple times in a row, but I have no issue with dodge existing. It generates an aspect of unpredictability, that keeps the challenge up and keeps the fights a bit exciting.
We are not entitled to strike the enemy every time we attack. That makes the game play too linear, too predictable. We should not be able to plan out every battle down to the move. That is honestly boring.
I was thinking about ways that dodge could be changed but kept in a way that, I feel, is still fair. This is what I was thinking:
1. A neutral ability stone like shred or eliminate, with a 100% dodge chance but needs to be picked as the single action your dragon does on it's turn and costs breath to use.
2. An energy stone, like scratch, with a 100% chance to dodge and generates a small amount of breath each time it's used
3. Similar to #2, but only, say, 90% dodge rate and generates breath on an unsuccessful dodge
4. An option similar to the "defend" action, with a 100% dodge rate. No breath is gained or lost and it's the only action your dragon takes on it's turn.
I really think that something like one of these options is the best middle ground between totally getting rid of dodge and keeping it. Any one of these options reduces the amount of times an enemy can dodge, keeps the "element of unpredictability", and removes the extreme frustration because you know your enemy was using dodge as a battle strategy, rather than being a passive dice roll in their favor.
Enemies with low life, or wounded enemies, shouldn't be able to dodge. I don't see the problem with it existing for high life enemies (say over 30%), it makes perfect realistic sense.
Perhaps it should be a % determined by the enemy's life/maxlife, with it becoming 0% at say 20%. Bleeding could reduce it further, perhaps.
Enemies with low life, or wounded enemies, shouldn't be able to dodge. I don't see the problem with it existing for high life enemies (say over 30%), it makes perfect realistic sense.
Perhaps it should be a % determined by the enemy's life/maxlife, with it becoming 0% at say 20%. Bleeding could reduce it further, perhaps.
[quote name="gemajgall" date="2014-12-31 10:21:20"][quote name="Darcarin" date="2014-12-31 09:57:40"]No support for total removal.
Yes, dodge is annoying, and it would be nice if enemies did not dodge repeated multiple times in a row, but I have no issue with dodge existing. It generates an aspect of unpredictability, that keeps the challenge up and keeps the fights a bit exciting.
We are not entitled to strike the enemy every time we attack. That makes the game play too linear, too predictable. We should not be able to plan out every battle down to the move. That is honestly boring.[/quote]
I agree with this. I especially don't want to lose when my dragons dodge incoming attacks. Both would have to be removed to be fair, after all.
Part of the problem may be the necessity of ambush/eliminate teams. Pretty much everyone is running that as there's no other option as valid. That means people aren't putting any stats into dodging rates (and I suspect our ability to dodge also affects our accuracy too based on observation). If the Coli had more options so people could try a variety of strategies, people could choose options to counter dodging as they seen necessary.
Plus, again, I really don't want to lose my dragons' ability to dodge attacks. There have been a few dodges that have saved me from being wiped.[/quote]
gemajgall wrote on 2014-12-31 10:21:20:
Darcarin wrote on 2014-12-31 09:57:40:
No support for total removal.
Yes, dodge is annoying, and it would be nice if enemies did not dodge repeated multiple times in a row, but I have no issue with dodge existing. It generates an aspect of unpredictability, that keeps the challenge up and keeps the fights a bit exciting.
We are not entitled to strike the enemy every time we attack. That makes the game play too linear, too predictable. We should not be able to plan out every battle down to the move. That is honestly boring.
I agree with this. I especially don't want to lose when my dragons dodge incoming attacks. Both would have to be removed to be fair, after all.
Part of the problem may be the necessity of ambush/eliminate teams. Pretty much everyone is running that as there's no other option as valid. That means people aren't putting any stats into dodging rates (and I suspect our ability to dodge also affects our accuracy too based on observation). If the Coli had more options so people could try a variety of strategies, people could choose options to counter dodging as they seen necessary.
Plus, again, I really don't want to lose my dragons' ability to dodge attacks. There have been a few dodges that have saved me from being wiped.
[quote name="Darcarin" date="2014-12-31 09:57:40"]No support for total removal.
Yes, dodge is annoying, and it would be nice if enemies did not dodge repeated multiple times in a row, but I have no issue with dodge existing. It generates an aspect of unpredictability, that keeps the challenge up and keeps the fights a bit exciting.
We are not entitled to strike the enemy every time we attack. That makes the game play too linear, too predictable. We should not be able to plan out every battle down to the move. That is honestly boring.[/quote]
I agree with this point and would like to see the dodge rate severely reduced. There have been times when I've grinded for hours and have maybe seen one or two dodges, but there have been other times when upwards of four attacks in a row have been dodged, each time by either the same or different enemies. The OP also pointed out that the Kelp Beds is capable of dodging every single attack, which I have also experienced on multiple occasions. It really moves from a mere disadvantage to an annoyance at that point, and one that can ruin a battle in only a few turns.
Darcarin wrote on 2014-12-31 09:57:40:
No support for total removal.
Yes, dodge is annoying, and it would be nice if enemies did not dodge repeated multiple times in a row, but I have no issue with dodge existing. It generates an aspect of unpredictability, that keeps the challenge up and keeps the fights a bit exciting.
We are not entitled to strike the enemy every time we attack. That makes the game play too linear, too predictable. We should not be able to plan out every battle down to the move. That is honestly boring.
I agree with this point and would like to see the dodge rate severely reduced. There have been times when I've grinded for hours and have maybe seen one or two dodges, but there have been other times when upwards of four attacks in a row have been dodged, each time by either the same or different enemies. The OP also pointed out that the Kelp Beds is capable of dodging every single attack, which I have also experienced on multiple occasions. It really moves from a mere disadvantage to an annoyance at that point, and one that can ruin a battle in only a few turns.
No support.
It's already frustrating that there's a "right" way to grind/play in the coli, and that those of us who prefer non-Culex/guide builds are technically losing efficiency for the sake of variety. Getting rid of dodge means that the points my dragons have in agility become useless, so you might as well get rid of the Agility stat completely. Doing that means, what? Refund my agility points, which I can then put in strength and then you'd have to retool to Golem workshop or introduce more virtually impossible boss monsters to deal with the extra points people have. (It also works both ways - my butt's been saved by dodging an enemy attack, and I'd like that option to exist)
FWIW the only time I've found enemy dodges to be impossible frustrating is when I'm using a culex-build dragon. With my other coli dragons I can probably count on one hand the number of times an enemy's dodged their attack more than twice in a row.
No support.
It's already frustrating that there's a "right" way to grind/play in the coli, and that those of us who prefer non-Culex/guide builds are technically losing efficiency for the sake of variety. Getting rid of dodge means that the points my dragons have in agility become useless, so you might as well get rid of the Agility stat completely. Doing that means, what? Refund my agility points, which I can then put in strength and then you'd have to retool to Golem workshop or introduce more virtually impossible boss monsters to deal with the extra points people have. (It also works both ways - my butt's been saved by dodging an enemy attack, and I'd like that option to exist)
FWIW the only time I've found enemy dodges to be impossible frustrating is when I'm using a culex-build dragon. With my other coli dragons I can probably count on one hand the number of times an enemy's dodged their attack more than twice in a row.
No support. Sometimes dodging saves my dragons from losing the fight.
It adds some unpredictability and variation to the battles, instead of being like, say pokemon, where you know with almost certainty how the battle will go and how much damage the opponent will take. That's less interesting to me.
So, say I'm close to losing my last dragon and I'll think "Okay, I probably can't win this but MAYBE if I manage to dodge!" And then sometimes you do! It's exciting when that happens, and if you've got a dragon with a few points in Agility it'll happen more often.
I've never really had many problems with enemies dodging. I mean, it sometimes happens, but it's just part of combat. My dragons sometimes dodge, monsters sometimes dodge, it seems fair to me.
No support. Sometimes dodging saves my dragons from losing the fight.
It adds some unpredictability and variation to the battles, instead of being like, say pokemon, where you know with almost certainty how the battle will go and how much damage the opponent will take. That's less interesting to me.
So, say I'm close to losing my last dragon and I'll think "Okay, I probably can't win this but MAYBE if I manage to dodge!" And then sometimes you do! It's exciting when that happens, and if you've got a dragon with a few points in Agility it'll happen more often.
I've never really had many problems with enemies dodging. I mean, it sometimes happens, but it's just part of combat. My dragons sometimes dodge, monsters sometimes dodge, it seems fair to me.
squid/winter | FR+3 | they/them | spelled squidra-gon (like octagon)
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Jacq
The "uselessness" of agility would depend on whether or not you're depending on it for offense or defense, as agility also increases critical strike chance, not just dodge. So agility isn't useless if dodge was removed. You also come up against the question of what is more useful in defense: relying on a high agility, or consistent damage reduction by putting points into Defense and Mind.
As for the re-tooling Golem workshop, that wouldn't be needed, since the Culex stat distribution does not put any points into agility (You may be mixing up Agility with Quickness, which is what the Culex distribution uses). Assuming most of the user base already uses the Culex distribution, most dragons are already using the highest strength possible and wouldn't be able to get more, since they would not be moving stats from agility to strength. You would see a benefit, but no one else would, because they are already there.
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squidragon
The no support bunch seems to be ok with battle "unpredictability" as it currently exists, which is, dodging as a passive RNG dice roll
on top of everything else that is going on in battle. This I disagree with. I don't think RNG or luck should be a factor in competition (though I am perfectly ok with it in terms of things like, gathering and opening chests), even in a casual case where you are up against an AI in a battle in FR's coliseum. I don't find that exciting or satisfying in the least - even when RNG rolls in my favor and I live to see another battle because of a lucky dodge.
I prefer unpredictability in terms of strategy - not knowing what my opponent will do. And I would be perfectly fine, as I have mentioned, if dodge existed as a battle strategy rather than an outcome of pure luck. By this I mean dodge existing as a selectable action, in the same way that attacking, defending and healing are. You can choose to dodge, but that is your action, nothing else.
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Jacq
The "uselessness" of agility would depend on whether or not you're depending on it for offense or defense, as agility also increases critical strike chance, not just dodge. So agility isn't useless if dodge was removed. You also come up against the question of what is more useful in defense: relying on a high agility, or consistent damage reduction by putting points into Defense and Mind.
As for the re-tooling Golem workshop, that wouldn't be needed, since the Culex stat distribution does not put any points into agility (You may be mixing up Agility with Quickness, which is what the Culex distribution uses). Assuming most of the user base already uses the Culex distribution, most dragons are already using the highest strength possible and wouldn't be able to get more, since they would not be moving stats from agility to strength. You would see a benefit, but no one else would, because they are already there.
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squidragon
The no support bunch seems to be ok with battle "unpredictability" as it currently exists, which is, dodging as a passive RNG dice roll
on top of everything else that is going on in battle. This I disagree with. I don't think RNG or luck should be a factor in competition (though I am perfectly ok with it in terms of things like, gathering and opening chests), even in a casual case where you are up against an AI in a battle in FR's coliseum. I don't find that exciting or satisfying in the least - even when RNG rolls in my favor and I live to see another battle because of a lucky dodge.
I prefer unpredictability in terms of strategy - not knowing what my opponent will do. And I would be perfectly fine, as I have mentioned, if dodge existed as a battle strategy rather than an outcome of pure luck. By this I mean dodge existing as a selectable action, in the same way that attacking, defending and healing are. You can choose to dodge, but that is your action, nothing else.
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LordGustoff
I thought all dragons started with some base in agility? Sorry, I really don't pay attention to what's in each build, but "Culex" is the name thrown around often. Agility deals with dodge and crit chance both because if it manipulated just one of those things it wouldn't be a very good stat. I meant you'd have to retool Golem Workshop for that reason (extra stats for all non-tinctured dergs), and also because every monster in Coli also has a dodge chance / agility stat, so all of those points would have to be rebalanced as well, across all areas.
There are a lot of things broken in the Coli right now, and I think Dodge is basically at the bottom of the list of game-breaking issues. As you said yourself, you want unpredictability to be a strategic choice, but the enemy AI in the Coli right now is so poor the concept of "Strategy" in the coli is nearly nonexistent. Personally, I'd prefer to see the AI retooled, level cap raised, or (especially) Eliminate nerfed (either by upping its damage and removing the breath payback, or lowering the damage completely) before dealing with anything else.
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LordGustoff
I thought all dragons started with some base in agility? Sorry, I really don't pay attention to what's in each build, but "Culex" is the name thrown around often. Agility deals with dodge and crit chance both because if it manipulated just one of those things it wouldn't be a very good stat. I meant you'd have to retool Golem Workshop for that reason (extra stats for all non-tinctured dergs), and also because every monster in Coli also has a dodge chance / agility stat, so all of those points would have to be rebalanced as well, across all areas.
There are a lot of things broken in the Coli right now, and I think Dodge is basically at the bottom of the list of game-breaking issues. As you said yourself, you want unpredictability to be a strategic choice, but the enemy AI in the Coli right now is so poor the concept of "Strategy" in the coli is nearly nonexistent. Personally, I'd prefer to see the AI retooled, level cap raised, or (especially) Eliminate nerfed (either by upping its damage and removing the breath payback, or lowering the damage completely) before dealing with anything else.
